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Noah's Ark and the Great Flood

  1. Apr 3, 2010 #1
    I used to think that the grate flood and Noah's arc was just a story from a bible that somehow been altered or made but after reading this news in the 70's it made me say wow.

    http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm"

    I never think a great flood would be possible but now I am wondering:confused:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 3, 2010 #2
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    For people of that time, the Black Sea area was their whole world, and it was entirely possible for it to flood, and a guy to put a bunch of animals on a boat and hang out for a while.

    It is also entirely possible that God told Noah to build a boat. But unfortunately we will never know until we pass on.

    And, it is also possible that this never happened, the black sea never flooded, and it is just a story to teach a moral lesson.
     
  4. Apr 3, 2010 #3
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

    That being said, the whole "Noah's Ark" thing is of course a bunch of codwopple. The story itself is a blatant plagiarism of the story of Utnapishtim from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. It is however possible that someone created a tall tale about having to leave a country which was rich and good (i.e. the Black Sea region) because of flooding. It's just more interesting - from a dramaturgic point of view - to tell about a great flood and a narrow escape by boat, than it is to talk about a dreary march on foot, with all your stash and cattles, always being chased by an ever rising waterline.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010
  5. Apr 3, 2010 #4
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Oh yay, someone who understands that a majority of stories in the bible that are 'truth' were actually borrowed from others who came well before these times.
     
  6. Apr 3, 2010 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    We have two similar accounts from approximately the same time. Why would one conclude that they are both false?
     
  7. Apr 3, 2010 #6
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Well Noah's Arc and Gilgamesh flood myth are seperated by approximately 500 years... probably more. That in my opinion can not be considered the 'same time'. As well no one said anything about the validity of the stories, just that they look similar... and one came before the other, from around the same areas... I'll leave you to deduce that one your own.

    What about the Epic of Atrahasis which came prior to gilgamesh?!?!?! The Black Sea deluge AFAIK is dated at around 5500BCE.
     
  8. Apr 3, 2010 #7

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    There is no way to assign a precise date to either story; that is, unless you believe bible dates, which cannot possibly be confirmed.
     
  9. Apr 3, 2010 #8
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    It's not a precise date... who said THAT either? My goodness Ivan your full of assumption today.
     
  10. Apr 3, 2010 #9
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    I think there is a whole discipline of crypto-archaolegy which is trying to compare various sources of ancient, Middle-Eastern information in order to establish a reasonable timeline for the claimed historical events. But that doesn't really concern the topic at hand. From what I have learned (thanks to a person on this site, no less), the estimated date of the Black Sea deluge is about 7,500 BC; by far too early - by THOUSANDS of years - for any written records of any events in the region. So we have to assume that if it is connected, it is through an oral tradition of storytelling, which it is only fair to assume placed much greater emphasis on dramatical force of "performance" than on historical accuracy of the actual events.
     
  11. Apr 6, 2010 #10

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Now I'm confused. I thought your objection was the date. What is your objection if not the dates?
     
  12. Apr 6, 2010 #11
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    No not the dates. I was just leading on the discussion that the stories are similiar and come pretty sequential. You can find these types of stories all throughout the bible, that they are copies of a previous story which was altered to fit the bible. So for the Great Flood I was leading to the Black Sea deluge theory making sense. The stories seem to go back to then, however we can't be certain as there was no written accounts that far back. They probably survived as stories of sorts and eventually were written down. You see this a lot in Native American stories (I'm metis so I know quite a few of them).
     
  13. Apr 6, 2010 #12
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    As well there's a show on the History channel right now called 'Ancient Weather'. This episode is about the Black Sea deluge and as I'm typing this they are talking about the farming community which was displaced due to the flood.
     
  14. Apr 6, 2010 #13

    mgb_phys

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    That's about the time that separates the Trojan war (11-12C BCE?) and the illiad (5-6C BCE?), so a historical event getting incorporated in a story 500years later isn't too far fetched
     
  15. Apr 6, 2010 #14

    Chronos

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    The last ice age ended around 12,000 years ago. The biblical tale of Noah was probably borrowed from Gilgamesh. It would not be unusual for accountings written around the time of the early bible, which were mostly mythical. Sea levels were about 100 feet lower when the last ice age ended. The melt water would have caused a great flood in their minds. A 100 foot rise in sea level now would also be historically noteworthy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  16. Apr 6, 2010 #15

    mgb_phys

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    The end of the last ice age depends where you live, the big jump for northern Europe was the younger dryas about 14,500BP. Ironically this could have reduced water levels in the middle east, as rivers that were draining glaciers across siberia could drain into the new North sea.
     
  17. Apr 7, 2010 #16
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    I wonder what would turn up if one actually attempted to trace back flood stories.

    As well mgb you're somewhat right. At the end of the last glacial period the Saraha dried right up. However, because of the Earths tilt and other factors the monsoon was further North so much of what is now the Saraha was actually pretty lush enviroment. Eventually the monsoon shifted further south and the desert dried right back up. You can see this by following the settlements in the Saraha. They move along ancient lakes, it's pretty cool actually. The end of the glacial period though also is a factor in the Black Sea deluge.

    It had happened 3 centuries prior to Gilgamesh's rule (2700BCE). So possibly there is further flood stories to trace back? I don't think there is written record of such event though.
     
  18. Apr 7, 2010 #17

    Chronos

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    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Written language was virtually nonexistent in 10,000 bce. Oral traditions were passed down for many generations before the stories were recorded. It is generally believed this this occured no earlier than 6000 bce. These original authors had little sense of time aside from past, present and future, hence all time lines in their stories are highly dubious. They were also extremely superstitious and prone to ascribing natural events like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and 'great' floods to any number of 'gods'. That was no more, and no less, than the oral tradition they were attempting to preserve.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  19. Apr 7, 2010 #18
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    I do not think that the Great Flood from the bible had occured 10000BCE, that's pretty difficult for me to think considering the location and the amount of time.
     
  20. Apr 7, 2010 #19
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    re: Bolded: There certainly could have been flooding in that region which would have been death for anyone of that time. (CLARIFICATION: displacement from farming ground being the cause of death, not drowing) Given that, it makes even more sense, not only to dramatize the event, but to add emphasis as the story has changed with time. Remember, you always have to the top the topper!


    @zomgwtf: I just opened this thread and, hit "ctrl+f" and typed "gilg". I am so happy that the thread lit up (highlit) before I could even get out the "mesh"!... Then there's the ancient Roman Pantheon... I almost had my rear handed to me by angry Greek relatives when I tried to explain that the Greek pnatheon, much like the egyptians', all comes from good old Akkadian/Sumerian mythology.

    I mean... Innana's journey to the realm's of Ereshkigal vs. Eurydice & Orpheus! Some things get added, other removed, some changed... but it's mostly the same.

    EDIT: Cuneform is the earliest written language, unless you count quasi-symbolic pictographs on cave walls. That is... cuneform has survived... clay is great stuff. If writing existed apart from that region, it was not written with materials that have stood the test of time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  21. Apr 8, 2010 #20

    Chronos

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    10,000 bce is affirmed by the geological record as the end of the last ice age. This greatly predates the time the earliest books of the old testament were recorded [circa 1000 bce]. Ealier texts were recorded in mesopotamia - notably gilgamesh, but these are at best only a couple thousand years more ancient. I find it highly likely ancient biblical authors borrowed heaviliy from such accounts, and their own oral traditions, to document their heritage. Bear in mind I'm one of those people who believe the story of Adam & Eve was an allegorical portrayal of the transition of early humans from hunter - gatherer's to an agrarian society. The tree of knowledge was the realization that humans could harness the forces of nature to serve their own needs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  22. Apr 8, 2010 #21
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Well everyone didn't die. The Black Sea deluge is believed to be what brought farming into Europe. The farmers had developed around the Black Sea and when it flooded they were forced to move. It didn't flood over night but it was quite rapid, over just under a year it took for the flood to be finished. This is also what led to the development of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
     
  23. Apr 8, 2010 #22
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    It's also probably why the dominant language of the time died without any modern derivatives (cuneform). I didn't mean to imply everyone died in flash flooding, but it would seem a fairly limited number both escaped the loss of their food supply and much of their (relatively) clean water. There is evidence of Silos for grain and such, so we can assume that some, even with the loss of crops, could have survived on that and livestock.

    That said, we can also assume that most of them died at some remove... they couldn't have stored enough food, or traveled with it, to sustain more than a very brief diasporic period. I suspect the journey from the Black Sea region to other locales was multigenerational for the most part, at least for the Sumerians. Akkadians obviously spread their language and culture (Egypt et al as you say), but clearly it was the death of civilations.

    I would add, even if this flooding was EXCEEDINGLY mild, steady and repeated inundation of brackish/salt water into otherwise arible land or drinking water would have been just the kind of slower threat you describe. That also would be more likely to mark the end of Cuneform (no living relatives) as the dominant language. A single catastropic flood would frankly have been less lethal in the long run, but as you say, more dramatic.
     
  24. Apr 8, 2010 #23
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    Yup, glad we can agree on something finally :rofl:
     
  25. Apr 8, 2010 #24
    Re: Noah's Arc and the Great Flood

    I suspect we agree on a lot of things, not the least of which is the nobility of your current profession. Please don't mistake the heat of the moment for lasting enmity. :smile:
     
  26. Apr 8, 2010 #25

    Ivan Seeking

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    Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?
     
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