Noah's Ark and the Great Flood

  • #1
I used to think that the grate flood and Noah's arc was just a story from a bible that somehow been altered or made but after reading this news in the 70's it made me say wow.

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahsark.htm"

I never think a great flood would be possible but now I am wondering:confused:
 
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  • #2
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For people of that time, the Black Sea area was their whole world, and it was entirely possible for it to flood, and a guy to put a bunch of animals on a boat and hang out for a while.

It is also entirely possible that God told Noah to build a boat. But unfortunately we will never know until we pass on.

And, it is also possible that this never happened, the black sea never flooded, and it is just a story to teach a moral lesson.
 
  • #3
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possible that this never happened, the black sea never flooded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

That being said, the whole "Noah's Ark" thing is of course a bunch of codwopple. The story itself is a blatant plagiarism of the story of Utnapishtim from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. It is however possible that someone created a tall tale about having to leave a country which was rich and good (i.e. the Black Sea region) because of flooding. It's just more interesting - from a dramaturgic point of view - to tell about a great flood and a narrow escape by boat, than it is to talk about a dreary march on foot, with all your stash and cattles, always being chased by an ever rising waterline.
 
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  • #4
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

That being said, the whole "Noah's Ark" thing is of course a bunch of codwopple. The story itself is a blatant plagiarism of the story of Utnapishtim from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. It is however possible that someone created a tall tale about having to leave a country which was rich and good (i.e. the Black Sea region) because of flooding. It's just more interesting - from a dramaturgic point of view - to tell about a great flood and a narrow escape by boat, than it is to talk about a dreary march on foot, with all your stash and cattles, always being chased by an ever rising waterline.

Oh yay, someone who understands that a majority of stories in the bible that are 'truth' were actually borrowed from others who came well before these times.
 
  • #5
Ivan Seeking
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We have two similar accounts from approximately the same time. Why would one conclude that they are both false?
 
  • #6
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We have two similar accounts from approximately the same time. Why would one conclude that they are both false?

Well Noah's Arc and Gilgamesh flood myth are seperated by approximately 500 years... probably more. That in my opinion can not be considered the 'same time'. As well no one said anything about the validity of the stories, just that they look similar... and one came before the other, from around the same areas... I'll leave you to deduce that one your own.

What about the Epic of Atrahasis which came prior to gilgamesh?!?!?! The Black Sea deluge AFAIK is dated at around 5500BCE.
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking
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Well Noah's Arc and Gilgamesh flood myth are seperated by approximately 500 years... probably more. That in my opinion can not be considered the 'same time'. As well no one said anything about the validity of the stories, just that they look similar... and one came before the other, from around the same areas... I'll leave you to deduce that one your own.

There is no way to assign a precise date to either story; that is, unless you believe bible dates, which cannot possibly be confirmed.
 
  • #8
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There is no way to assign a precise date to either story; that is, unless you believe bible dates, which cannot possibly be confirmed.

It's not a precise date... who said THAT either? My goodness Ivan your full of assumption today.
 
  • #9
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bible dates, which cannot possibly be confirmed

I think there is a whole discipline of crypto-archaolegy which is trying to compare various sources of ancient, Middle-Eastern information in order to establish a reasonable timeline for the claimed historical events. But that doesn't really concern the topic at hand. From what I have learned (thanks to a person on this site, no less), the estimated date of the Black Sea deluge is about 7,500 BC; by far too early - by THOUSANDS of years - for any written records of any events in the region. So we have to assume that if it is connected, it is through an oral tradition of storytelling, which it is only fair to assume placed much greater emphasis on dramatical force of "performance" than on historical accuracy of the actual events.
 
  • #10
Ivan Seeking
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It's not a precise date... who said THAT either? My goodness Ivan your full of assumption today.

Now I'm confused. I thought your objection was the date. What is your objection if not the dates?
 
  • #11
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Now I'm confused. I thought your objection was the date. What is your objection if not the dates?

No not the dates. I was just leading on the discussion that the stories are similiar and come pretty sequential. You can find these types of stories all throughout the bible, that they are copies of a previous story which was altered to fit the bible. So for the Great Flood I was leading to the Black Sea deluge theory making sense. The stories seem to go back to then, however we can't be certain as there was no written accounts that far back. They probably survived as stories of sorts and eventually were written down. You see this a lot in Native American stories (I'm metis so I know quite a few of them).
 
  • #12
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As well there's a show on the History channel right now called 'Ancient Weather'. This episode is about the Black Sea deluge and as I'm typing this they are talking about the farming community which was displaced due to the flood.
 
  • #13
mgb_phys
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That's about the time that separates the Trojan war (11-12C BCE?) and the illiad (5-6C BCE?), so a historical event getting incorporated in a story 500years later isn't too far fetched
 
  • #14
Chronos
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The last ice age ended around 12,000 years ago. The biblical tale of Noah was probably borrowed from Gilgamesh. It would not be unusual for accountings written around the time of the early bible, which were mostly mythical. Sea levels were about 100 feet lower when the last ice age ended. The melt water would have caused a great flood in their minds. A 100 foot rise in sea level now would also be historically noteworthy.
 
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  • #15
mgb_phys
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The last ice age ended around 12,000 years ago. ....The melt water would have caused a great flood in their minds. A 100 foot rise in sea level now would also be historically noteworthy.
The end of the last ice age depends where you live, the big jump for northern Europe was the younger dryas about 14,500BP. Ironically this could have reduced water levels in the middle east, as rivers that were draining glaciers across siberia could drain into the new North sea.
 
  • #16
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I wonder what would turn up if one actually attempted to trace back flood stories.

As well mgb you're somewhat right. At the end of the last glacial period the Saraha dried right up. However, because of the Earths tilt and other factors the monsoon was further North so much of what is now the Saraha was actually pretty lush enviroment. Eventually the monsoon shifted further south and the desert dried right back up. You can see this by following the settlements in the Saraha. They move along ancient lakes, it's pretty cool actually. The end of the glacial period though also is a factor in the Black Sea deluge.

It had happened 3 centuries prior to Gilgamesh's rule (2700BCE). So possibly there is further flood stories to trace back? I don't think there is written record of such event though.
 
  • #17
Chronos
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Written language was virtually nonexistent in 10,000 bce. Oral traditions were passed down for many generations before the stories were recorded. It is generally believed this this occured no earlier than 6000 bce. These original authors had little sense of time aside from past, present and future, hence all time lines in their stories are highly dubious. They were also extremely superstitious and prone to ascribing natural events like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and 'great' floods to any number of 'gods'. That was no more, and no less, than the oral tradition they were attempting to preserve.
 
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  • #18
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I do not think that the Great Flood from the bible had occured 10000BCE, that's pretty difficult for me to think considering the location and the amount of time.
 
  • #19
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

That being said, the whole "Noah's Ark" thing is of course a bunch of codwopple. The story itself is a blatant plagiarism of the story of Utnapishtim from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. It is however possible that someone created a tall tale about having to leave a country which was rich and good (i.e. the Black Sea region) because of flooding. It's just more interesting - from a dramaturgic point of view - to tell about a great flood and a narrow escape by boat, than it is to talk about a dreary march on foot, with all your stash and cattles, always being chased by an ever rising waterline.

re: Bolded: There certainly could have been flooding in that region which would have been death for anyone of that time. (CLARIFICATION: displacement from farming ground being the cause of death, not drowing) Given that, it makes even more sense, not only to dramatize the event, but to add emphasis as the story has changed with time. Remember, you always have to the top the topper!


@zomgwtf: I just opened this thread and, hit "ctrl+f" and typed "gilg". I am so happy that the thread lit up (highlit) before I could even get out the "mesh"!... Then there's the ancient Roman Pantheon... I almost had my rear handed to me by angry Greek relatives when I tried to explain that the Greek pnatheon, much like the egyptians', all comes from good old Akkadian/Sumerian mythology.

I mean... Innana's journey to the realm's of Ereshkigal vs. Eurydice & Orpheus! Some things get added, other removed, some changed... but it's mostly the same.

EDIT: Cuneform is the earliest written language, unless you count quasi-symbolic pictographs on cave walls. That is... cuneform has survived... clay is great stuff. If writing existed apart from that region, it was not written with materials that have stood the test of time.
 
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  • #20
Chronos
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10,000 bce is affirmed by the geological record as the end of the last ice age. This greatly predates the time the earliest books of the old testament were recorded [circa 1000 bce]. Ealier texts were recorded in mesopotamia - notably gilgamesh, but these are at best only a couple thousand years more ancient. I find it highly likely ancient biblical authors borrowed heaviliy from such accounts, and their own oral traditions, to document their heritage. Bear in mind I'm one of those people who believe the story of Adam & Eve was an allegorical portrayal of the transition of early humans from hunter - gatherer's to an agrarian society. The tree of knowledge was the realization that humans could harness the forces of nature to serve their own needs.
 
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  • #21
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re: Bolded: There certainly could have been flooding in that region which would have been death for anyone of that time. (CLARIFICATION: displacement from farming ground being the cause of death, not drowing) Given that, it makes even more sense, not only to dramatize the event, but to add emphasis as the story has changed with time. Remember, you always have to the top the topper!

Well everyone didn't die. The Black Sea deluge is believed to be what brought farming into Europe. The farmers had developed around the Black Sea and when it flooded they were forced to move. It didn't flood over night but it was quite rapid, over just under a year it took for the flood to be finished. This is also what led to the development of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
 
  • #22
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Well everyone didn't die. The Black Sea deluge is believed to be what brought farming into Europe. The farmers had developed around the Black Sea and when it flooded they were forced to move. It didn't flood over night but it was quite rapid, over just under a year it took for the flood to be finished. This is also what led to the development of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

It's also probably why the dominant language of the time died without any modern derivatives (cuneform). I didn't mean to imply everyone died in flash flooding, but it would seem a fairly limited number both escaped the loss of their food supply and much of their (relatively) clean water. There is evidence of Silos for grain and such, so we can assume that some, even with the loss of crops, could have survived on that and livestock.

That said, we can also assume that most of them died at some remove... they couldn't have stored enough food, or traveled with it, to sustain more than a very brief diasporic period. I suspect the journey from the Black Sea region to other locales was multigenerational for the most part, at least for the Sumerians. Akkadians obviously spread their language and culture (Egypt et al as you say), but clearly it was the death of civilations.

I would add, even if this flooding was EXCEEDINGLY mild, steady and repeated inundation of brackish/salt water into otherwise arible land or drinking water would have been just the kind of slower threat you describe. That also would be more likely to mark the end of Cuneform (no living relatives) as the dominant language. A single catastropic flood would frankly have been less lethal in the long run, but as you say, more dramatic.
 
  • #23
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It's also probably why the dominant language of the time died without any modern derivatives (cuneform). I didn't mean to imply everyone died in flash flooding, but it would seem a fairly limited number both escaped the loss of their food supply and much of their (relatively) clean water. There is evidence of Silos for grain and such, so we can assume that some, even with the loss of crops, could have survived on that and livestock.

That said, we can also assume that most of them died at some remove... they couldn't have stored enough food, or traveled with it, to sustain more than a very brief diasporic period. I suspect the journey from the Black Sea region to other locales was multigenerational for the most part, at least for the Sumerians. Akkadians obviously spread their language and culture (Egypt et al as you say), but clearly it was the death of civilations.

I would add, even if this flooding was EXCEEDINGLY mild, steady and repeated inundation of brackish/salt water into otherwise arible land or drinking water would have been just the kind of slower threat you describe. That also would be more likely to mark the end of Cuneform (no living relatives) as the dominant language. A single catastropic flood would frankly have been less lethal in the long run, but as you say, more dramatic.

Yup, glad we can agree on something finally :rofl:
 
  • #24
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Yup, glad we can agree on something finally :rofl:

I suspect we agree on a lot of things, not the least of which is the nobility of your current profession. Please don't mistake the heat of the moment for lasting enmity. :smile:
 
  • #25
Ivan Seeking
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Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?
 
  • #26
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Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?
Read this.

Here is a list of everything he's claimed to have found.

By the time of his death in 1999 Wyatt claimed to have located:

The true site of Noah's Ark (the Durupınar site, near but not on Mount Ararat)
Anchor stones (or drogue stones) used by Noah on the Ark
The post-flood house and tombs of Noah and his wife
The location of Sodom and Gomorrah
The site of the Israelites' Red Sea Crossing (which Wyatt located in the Gulf of Aqaba)
The true site of the biblical Mt. Sinai (located by Wyatt in Saudi Arabia at Jabal al Lawz)
The Golden Calf Altar near Mt. Sinai
The Rock of Rephidim
The Cave of Machpelah in Hebron (The tomb of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob)
A chamber at the end of a maze of tunnels under Jerusalem containing artifacts from Solomon's temple
The site of the Crucifixion
The Ark of the Covenant (in a cave beneath the site of the Crucifixion)

The Ark of the Covenant
In Jerusalem, Wyatt dug on the property of the Garden Tomb Association near the area of Zedekiah's quarry and believed he found the site of the crucifixion. He gained entrance to a tunnel system and claimed to have discovered the Ark of the Covenant beneath the crucifixion site. He also claimed to have seen and taken a sample of the dried blood of Jesus that had dripped down through a crack into the chamber and onto the mercy seat of the Ark.

The Garden Tomb Association of Jerusalem state in a letter they issue to visitors on request:

The Council of the Garden Tomb Association (London) totally refute the claim of Mr Wyatt to have discovered the original Ark of the Covenant or any other biblical artifacts within the boundaries of the area known as the Garden Tomb Jerusalem. Though Mr Wyatt was allowed to dig within this privately owned garden on a number of occasions (the last occasion being the summer of 1991) staff members of the Association observed his progress and entered his excavated shaft. As far as we are aware nothing was ever discovered to support his claims nor have we seen any evidence of biblical artifacts or temple treasures.

continued...

http://creationwiki.org/Ron_Wyatt
 
  • #27
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Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?

I don't think the information this man presents is very credible. As Evo pointed out his claims were never substantiated and have been refuted.

I think though that this will happen with any claim of Noah's Ark, is it even a scientifically plausible story? (not talking with God or anything but the Ark itself and the entire situation). I tend to think not exactly how it is portrayed in the Bible.

So in my opinion, even though Wyatt's claims have been refuted completely and were never substantiated the things he says could still provide insight on the situation, or possibilities. I don't see any harm in leaving the link in the OP this is the Skepticism forums right? :tongue:.
 
  • #29
Ivan Seeking
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Okay, I think we should proceed by disallowing any interpretations made by Wyatt, and bibilical references generally. If he has anecdotal evidence that seems to be compelling, that is still fair game for discussion. However, the core question right now is whether there lies evidence for the remains of an ark, on Mount Ararat. Do we have any properly published, scholarly papers, to reference? How many people have visited the site? Is there a consensus among academics that there could be the remains of an ark, or this is claim soundly rejected? If the latter, why?

Discussion regarding the plausibility of a Noah's-Ark-like story is fine as long as we avoid any supernatural or religious elements of the stories.
 
  • #30
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Okay, I think we should proceed by disallowing any interpretations made by Wyatt, and bibilical references generally. If he has anecdotal evidence that seems to be compelling, that is still fair game for discussion. However, the core question right now is whether there lies evidence for the remains of an ark, on Mount Ararat. Do we have any properly published, scholarly papers, to reference? How many people have visited the site? Is there a consensus among academics that there could be the remains of an ark, or this is claim soundly rejected? If the latter, why?

Discussion regarding the plausibility of a Noah's-Ark-like story is fine as long as we avoid any supernatural or religious elements of the stories.

You know what gets me? There is certainly a Mt. Ararat, but the source material in question states clearly that the ark landed, "Amongst the mountains of Ararat," which was an entire region. In one sense this makes the people who say finding a boat on a mountain is meaningless unless it's ON the modern day Mt. Ararat, but on the other hand it makes the search questionable.

Forgetting animals, and just imagining that we have a 30x300 cubit ark, made of wood... I just find it hard to believe such a thing would exposed to the elements. It only makes sense if you search on (usually frozen) mountaintops, because to simply look in the region makes it a real archaeological issue, and one that is clearly not open to an easy solution. There is also the issue that any wood which survives that time span and is NOT on a mountain or frozen, or undersea... is probably proof of miracles anyway.

Lets be frank however... what elements of the Noah's Ark story are there which are NOT supernatural or religious? If you remove those elements, then the notion of an Ark becomes laughable. This is like talking about whether or not someone could find, "The True Cross", but saying that the religious elements should be ignored. So... ignoring that, there is no cross, no ark, etc. There are crucifixes, and there are boats, and people might find either... in the absence of context however we're not really talking about anything except how long would MIGHT survive a presumed interval of time based on... ... ... nothing?

The entire "flood" mythology and reality has been well done in this thread already, re: Gilgamesh, the Black Sea Deluge...

...

Well, there is some new evidence that sea levels can rise or fall by up to a meter in roughly 100 years (SciAm as a matter of fact... for what that's worth these days), but there is no record which would match anything civilized, never mind biblical.

So, yeah, to review: wood doesn't tend to last for thousands of years in a recognizable form unless it is immersed in cold salt water, frozen, freeze-dried, or POSSIBLY buried in a mountaintop. Unless the whole mess petrified, it would be dirt, and subsequent generations of trees and insects many times over by now.

So, are we talking about the OP and the thread's title, or are we talking about the Noah's Ark Myth? I can't imagine how one would debunk someone's faith, or a parable. It's not meant to be taken literally... and flooding alone is nothing special or remarkable.
 
  • #31
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I got into watching the atheist-experience on you tube and I was flabber gasted at the number of people believing in fairy tales such as the great flood as well as creationism. People in the US have real trouble with this topic at the moment with creationism (or intelligent design) being actively taught in schools, we're having trouble in the UK but not as badly as the US.

Despite being told where their mistakes lie, they refuse to believe the science presented to them.
 
  • #32
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I think that the fear of drowning is the origin of myths of flood everywhere. The Tupinambá, a Brazilian Indian tribe, had their Noah, named Tamandaré. Only, instead of building an Ark, he climbed a palm tree with his wife and children and expected the waters to subside. Then he proceeded to repopulate the earth.
 
  • #33
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There are other elements that are used for dating apart from carbon-14 you know.

With regard to the mid-atlantic trench, there have been goephysicists who have been examining the development of mountains using the Navier-Stokes equations have have gotten quite a good collaboration between their results and observation. I am presuming that this type of analysis can be applied the the mid-atlantic ridge.
 
  • #34
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I got into watching the atheist-experience on you tube and I was flabber gasted at the number of people believing in fairy tales such as the great flood as well as creationism. People in the US have real trouble with this topic at the moment with creationism (or intelligent design) being actively taught in schools, we're having trouble in the UK but not as badly as the US.

Despite being told where their mistakes lie, they refuse to believe the science presented to them.

Actually, what's taught in US schools is largely decided locally, and "intelligent design" is only taught in a few places (mostly the midwest and south). Frankly I'm amazed at the amount of coverage given to such things by the foreign press, such as BBC, which may give those outside the US an inaccurate perception. Also, even in places where it's taught, it's controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_education
 
  • #35
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Way off topic now.
 

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