Noah's Ark and the Great Flood

  • #26
Evo
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Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?
Read this.

Here is a list of everything he's claimed to have found.

By the time of his death in 1999 Wyatt claimed to have located:

The true site of Noah's Ark (the Durupınar site, near but not on Mount Ararat)
Anchor stones (or drogue stones) used by Noah on the Ark
The post-flood house and tombs of Noah and his wife
The location of Sodom and Gomorrah
The site of the Israelites' Red Sea Crossing (which Wyatt located in the Gulf of Aqaba)
The true site of the biblical Mt. Sinai (located by Wyatt in Saudi Arabia at Jabal al Lawz)
The Golden Calf Altar near Mt. Sinai
The Rock of Rephidim
The Cave of Machpelah in Hebron (The tomb of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob)
A chamber at the end of a maze of tunnels under Jerusalem containing artifacts from Solomon's temple
The site of the Crucifixion
The Ark of the Covenant (in a cave beneath the site of the Crucifixion)

The Ark of the Covenant
In Jerusalem, Wyatt dug on the property of the Garden Tomb Association near the area of Zedekiah's quarry and believed he found the site of the crucifixion. He gained entrance to a tunnel system and claimed to have discovered the Ark of the Covenant beneath the crucifixion site. He also claimed to have seen and taken a sample of the dried blood of Jesus that had dripped down through a crack into the chamber and onto the mercy seat of the Ark.

The Garden Tomb Association of Jerusalem state in a letter they issue to visitors on request:

The Council of the Garden Tomb Association (London) totally refute the claim of Mr Wyatt to have discovered the original Ark of the Covenant or any other biblical artifacts within the boundaries of the area known as the Garden Tomb Jerusalem. Though Mr Wyatt was allowed to dig within this privately owned garden on a number of occasions (the last occasion being the summer of 1991) staff members of the Association observed his progress and entered his excavated shaft. As far as we are aware nothing was ever discovered to support his claims nor have we seen any evidence of biblical artifacts or temple treasures.

continued...

http://creationwiki.org/Ron_Wyatt
 
  • #27
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Do we have any comments wrt the link in the op? One staff member thought it should be deleted as a crank site. Since it seems to be a semi-documentary account of his trip, I opted to leave it for now. What do we know about this person and how credible is the information presented?

I don't think the information this man presents is very credible. As Evo pointed out his claims were never substantiated and have been refuted.

I think though that this will happen with any claim of Noah's Ark, is it even a scientifically plausible story? (not talking with God or anything but the Ark itself and the entire situation). I tend to think not exactly how it is portrayed in the Bible.

So in my opinion, even though Wyatt's claims have been refuted completely and were never substantiated the things he says could still provide insight on the situation, or possibilities. I don't see any harm in leaving the link in the OP this is the Skepticism forums right? :tongue:.
 
  • #29
Ivan Seeking
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Okay, I think we should proceed by disallowing any interpretations made by Wyatt, and bibilical references generally. If he has anecdotal evidence that seems to be compelling, that is still fair game for discussion. However, the core question right now is whether there lies evidence for the remains of an ark, on Mount Ararat. Do we have any properly published, scholarly papers, to reference? How many people have visited the site? Is there a consensus among academics that there could be the remains of an ark, or this is claim soundly rejected? If the latter, why?

Discussion regarding the plausibility of a Noah's-Ark-like story is fine as long as we avoid any supernatural or religious elements of the stories.
 
  • #30
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Okay, I think we should proceed by disallowing any interpretations made by Wyatt, and bibilical references generally. If he has anecdotal evidence that seems to be compelling, that is still fair game for discussion. However, the core question right now is whether there lies evidence for the remains of an ark, on Mount Ararat. Do we have any properly published, scholarly papers, to reference? How many people have visited the site? Is there a consensus among academics that there could be the remains of an ark, or this is claim soundly rejected? If the latter, why?

Discussion regarding the plausibility of a Noah's-Ark-like story is fine as long as we avoid any supernatural or religious elements of the stories.

You know what gets me? There is certainly a Mt. Ararat, but the source material in question states clearly that the ark landed, "Amongst the mountains of Ararat," which was an entire region. In one sense this makes the people who say finding a boat on a mountain is meaningless unless it's ON the modern day Mt. Ararat, but on the other hand it makes the search questionable.

Forgetting animals, and just imagining that we have a 30x300 cubit ark, made of wood... I just find it hard to believe such a thing would exposed to the elements. It only makes sense if you search on (usually frozen) mountaintops, because to simply look in the region makes it a real archaeological issue, and one that is clearly not open to an easy solution. There is also the issue that any wood which survives that time span and is NOT on a mountain or frozen, or undersea... is probably proof of miracles anyway.

Lets be frank however... what elements of the Noah's Ark story are there which are NOT supernatural or religious? If you remove those elements, then the notion of an Ark becomes laughable. This is like talking about whether or not someone could find, "The True Cross", but saying that the religious elements should be ignored. So... ignoring that, there is no cross, no ark, etc. There are crucifixes, and there are boats, and people might find either... in the absence of context however we're not really talking about anything except how long would MIGHT survive a presumed interval of time based on... ... ... nothing?

The entire "flood" mythology and reality has been well done in this thread already, re: Gilgamesh, the Black Sea Deluge...

...

Well, there is some new evidence that sea levels can rise or fall by up to a meter in roughly 100 years (SciAm as a matter of fact... for what that's worth these days), but there is no record which would match anything civilized, never mind biblical.

So, yeah, to review: wood doesn't tend to last for thousands of years in a recognizable form unless it is immersed in cold salt water, frozen, freeze-dried, or POSSIBLY buried in a mountaintop. Unless the whole mess petrified, it would be dirt, and subsequent generations of trees and insects many times over by now.

So, are we talking about the OP and the thread's title, or are we talking about the Noah's Ark Myth? I can't imagine how one would debunk someone's faith, or a parable. It's not meant to be taken literally... and flooding alone is nothing special or remarkable.
 
  • #31
hunt_mat
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I got into watching the atheist-experience on you tube and I was flabber gasted at the number of people believing in fairy tales such as the great flood as well as creationism. People in the US have real trouble with this topic at the moment with creationism (or intelligent design) being actively taught in schools, we're having trouble in the UK but not as badly as the US.

Despite being told where their mistakes lie, they refuse to believe the science presented to them.
 
  • #32
CEL
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I think that the fear of drowning is the origin of myths of flood everywhere. The Tupinambá, a Brazilian Indian tribe, had their Noah, named Tamandaré. Only, instead of building an Ark, he climbed a palm tree with his wife and children and expected the waters to subside. Then he proceeded to repopulate the earth.
 
  • #33
hunt_mat
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There are other elements that are used for dating apart from carbon-14 you know.

With regard to the mid-atlantic trench, there have been goephysicists who have been examining the development of mountains using the Navier-Stokes equations have have gotten quite a good collaboration between their results and observation. I am presuming that this type of analysis can be applied the the mid-atlantic ridge.
 
  • #34
lisab
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I got into watching the atheist-experience on you tube and I was flabber gasted at the number of people believing in fairy tales such as the great flood as well as creationism. People in the US have real trouble with this topic at the moment with creationism (or intelligent design) being actively taught in schools, we're having trouble in the UK but not as badly as the US.

Despite being told where their mistakes lie, they refuse to believe the science presented to them.

Actually, what's taught in US schools is largely decided locally, and "intelligent design" is only taught in a few places (mostly the midwest and south). Frankly I'm amazed at the amount of coverage given to such things by the foreign press, such as BBC, which may give those outside the US an inaccurate perception. Also, even in places where it's taught, it's controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_education
 
  • #35
Ivan Seeking
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Way off topic now.
 

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