Noble gases converted to plasma?

  • Thread starter klebrun
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  • #26
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26
To me it sounds like a fancy heat engine. If Mr. Carnot needs to be corrected
that would make it interesting!
P.S. I don't see that happening.
 
  • #27
AxilAxil
Yet their end product is claiming the same or nearly the same reaction but with the use of a low amp, very high voltage spark instead of a laser. They went tesla on it.

With large numbers of those massively charged positive ions produced by the Xe and kr clusters, induced electron charge screening of the helium atoms might be possible. This might lower the coulomb barrier of the helium atoms enough to make helium fusion probable.

This sort of fusion from heavy charge screening happens in astrophysics, at low energies of between 10 and 40 electron volts instead of at 1 MeV.

The elements helium (He), neon (Ne), argon (Ar), krypton (Kr), xenon (Xe) produce very large clusters. Xenon is the most vigorous cluster producer, Xenon clusters that take the shape of buckminsterfullerene.

The other noble gases catalyze the production of Xenon clusters. In general, the lighter atomic weight noble gases will catalyze cluster formation of the heaver weight elements. All the noble gas elements catalyze clustering in other member elements in their element family.

Mixed clustering of more than on noble gas element is possible.

Consistent with Rydberg matter, these clusters demonstrate magic numbers. These magic numbers describe clusters with a specific number of atoms that in an otherwise smooth intensity mass distribution show up in higher abundance than their neighbors. For protonated Xenon clusters the most apparent magic numbers show up at cluster sizes of N = 13, 19, 25, 71, 87 and 141 atoms. Xenon clusters can grow to exceed 1000 atoms an larger.

It is possible to control how clusters form in a mixture of noble gases by adjusting the proportions of each gas in the mix.

When these clusters are excited by lasers or sparks, they developed intense positive charge concentrations.

See

http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/December2009/p1210-1222.pdf

These clusters are Rydberg matter when they are is a state of excitement. When positively charged (Protonated Clusters), these clusters concentrate electron clouds that will reduce or eliminate the coulomb barriers of the atoms in there zones of influence.

This Protonated Clustering mechanism is the same one used by LeClair in his cavitation base LENR fusion reaction.

See

https://nanospireinc.com/Fusion.html

Cheers: Axil
 
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  • #28
klebrun
Thanks AxilAxil for the post, funny i had just read a post prior about fullerine and the absorbtion of noble gases into C60 and C70. If i understand it correctly the noble gas clusters are absorbed and trapped inside C60. Would this effect cause a heat release?

Article: http://jcp.aip.org/resource/1/jcpsa6/v107/i24/p10440_s1?isAuthorized=no [Broken]
 
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  • #29
AxilAxil
Thanks AxilAxil for the post, funny i had just read a post prior about fullerine and the absorbtion of noble gases into C60 and C70. If i understand it correctly the noble gas clusters are absorbed and trapped inside C60. Would this effect cause a heat release?

Article: http://jcp.aip.org/resource/1/jcpsa6/v107/i24/p10440_s1?isAuthorized=no [Broken]
How does the energy from fusion produce an increase of electromagnetic pressure in the Papp engine?

Xenon is a thermionic material; it converts heat of fusion into electric charge. As charge ionization goes up, the positively charged clusters repel each other and the gas expands.

When the clusters evaporate, the charge accumulation is neutralized and the electromagnetic pressure in the cylinder decreases until neutral polarity is restored.

The Magic of Xenon

The study of Xenon is a large field of physics and chemistry in its own right. Xenon is a uncommon element in the way it behaves.

Xenon will convert nuclear radiation into charged electrons which makes xenon pass a current as low as one volt as a conductive thermionic diode in nuclear reactors.

In plain language, Xenon converts gamma radiation into electrons. Xenon is easily ionized and can develop very large positive charge.

In this behavior, Xenon and Cesium work is similar ways. This puts Xenon into the running as a “secret sauce” as far as I am concerned.

Xenon also forms clusters when it is cooled. But this cooling that we are talking about here is the removal or transition of kinetic energy that the Xenon atom possesses.

This cooling can be done through the transfer of translational, rotational and vibrational energy to another atom. Krypton atoms serve this function as a cooling agent.

In addition, when Xenon is forced to move in a coherent direction in a group, translational, rotational and vibrational energy is converted to directional energy and the Xenon atoms are cooled but still energetic.

Typical set-up for cooling noble gases is the supersonic beam technique.

On the left is a reservoir at ambient temperature and pressure which is connected to a vacuum chamber on the right through a nozzle hole. The gases expand into the chamber through this hole and during this expansion all the random kinetic energy (translational, rotational and vibrational) gets converted to directional energy. A skimmer and collimator may be added to reduce the divergence at larger distances from the nozzle.

Such cooling can be done using radio frequency with the ionized Xenon atoms are forced to move back and forth is unison. Any kinetic energy that the Xenon atoms have are converted to directional energy.

So in plain language, Radio frequency will catalyze the formation of Xenon clusters as the atoms of Xenon are cooled by coherent motion.

Cheers: Axil
 
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  • #30
klebrun
Understood. Have you read up at all on what plasmerg is doing? If you have, you probably know they don't try to explain what reactions are taking place. They say that after their units are released they will give the details they know to researchers and let them figure it out. They are using 5 of the noble gases in their mixture and a large portion of that volume is xenon. They are creating a virtual cylinder with coils and radiating it with RF. According to their description, they create a pseudo-plasma, initiated by the spark, while squeezing the virtual chamber and applying the RF. They only energize the plasma for an instant which causes a powerful expansion in the cylinder. When they stop the reaction, the expanded gases colapse back to their normal state with a cooling effect. The engine runs optimally at 1800 rpm. Anything higher and they get heat retention and the engine warms. With your knowledge, does this sound feasible? Even plasmerg says they aren't going to try and explain what reactions are taking place.
 
  • #31
AxilAxil
Understood. Have you read up at all on what plasmerg is doing? If you have, you probably know they don't try to explain what reactions are taking place. They say that after their units are released they will give the details they know to researchers and let them figure it out. They are using 5 of the noble gases in their mixture and a large portion of that volume is xenon. They are creating a virtual cylinder with coils and radiating it with RF. According to their description, they create a pseudo-plasma, initiated by the spark, while squeezing the virtual chamber and applying the RF. They only energize the plasma for an instant which causes a powerful expansion in the cylinder. When they stop the reaction, the expanded gases colapse back to their normal state with a cooling effect. The engine runs optimally at 1800 rpm. Anything higher and they get heat retention and the engine warms. With your knowledge, does this sound feasible? Even plasmerg says they aren't going to try and explain what reactions are taking place.
Referenced interview:

Rohner states his theory.



http://larryseyer.com/media/podcasts/tmdd/TMDD-2012-08-10.MP3





Cheers: Axil
 
  • #32
klebrun
Rhoner only mentions briefly what's going on and in a way that makes me think he has a limited knowledge of physics. He basically reverse engineered the Papp engine from the schematics of the Papp engine controller...Your description of the events that happen within the combustion chamber is the most descriptive i've heard yet. In your opinion Axil does this make sense. Something has to be burning, fusing, or otherwise be used up in order to create an output, even if the process is a nearly 100% efficient use of energy. No energy can be created out of nothing so the gas either burns or there is a fusion event. What's your thoughts?
 
  • #33
Drakkith
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Rhoner only mentions briefly what's going on and in a way that makes me think he has a limited knowledge of physics. He basically reverse engineered the Papp engine from the schematics of the Papp engine controller...Your description of the events that happen within the combustion chamber is the most descriptive i've heard yet. In your opinion Axil does this make sense. Something has to be burning, fusing, or otherwise be used up in order to create an output, even if the process is a nearly 100% efficient use of energy. No energy can be created out of nothing so the gas either burns or there is a fusion event. What's your thoughts?
The gas can simply expand and do work without burning or fusing.
 
  • #34
klebrun
200+ horse power out of a spark?
 
  • #35
klebrun
Their data shows inputs of 400kV low amp. Yet their net output claimed is 250 horsepower.....250 horsepower could turn a generator effectively producing several kilowatts. Something has to be happening other than a gas excitation. Fuel has to be used. If i'm wrong, i'm confused. True, the gas can simply expand and do work without burning or fusing. But you can't get more out than you put in if this was all that was happening. Rhoner claims a few atoms are destroyed "every once in a while", But through recombination of the gases, there is very little used.
 
  • #36
Drakkith
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Yes, and that is exactly why this is considered to be a crackpot design.
 
  • #37
AxilAxil
Rhoner only mentions briefly what's going on and in a way that makes me think he has a limited knowledge of physics. He basically reverse engineered the Papp engine from the schematics of the Papp engine controller...Your description of the events that happen within the combustion chamber is the most descriptive i've heard yet. In your opinion Axil does this make sense. Something has to be burning, fusing, or otherwise be used up in order to create an output, even if the process is a nearly 100% efficient use of energy. No energy can be created out of nothing so the gas either burns or there is a fusion event. What's your thoughts?

I believe that John Rohner has contacts in the physics academic community that provide him with theory. Recombination is one of them. These physics would dearly want to keep their identities secret for fear of losing their jobs. Laymen would never come up with something like recombination and few PhDs would either. We will know in December is this stuff has a basis in fact. Do you plan to attend the trade show?
 
  • #38
klebrun
I won't be able to but i will be watching it closely. Looking forward to it.
 
  • #39
Drakkith
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I believe that John Rohner has contacts in the physics academic community that provide him with theory. Recombination is one of them. These physics would dearly want to keep their identities secret for fear of losing their jobs. Laymen would never come up with something like recombination and few PhDs would either. We will know in December is this stuff has a basis in fact. Do you plan to attend the trade show?
What possible reason would they have to be afraid of losing their jobs?
 
  • #40
AxilAxil
I am putting two and two together here. According to J Ronner, the ash of the original Papp engine was a brown powder. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. This type fusion does not produce energy (slightly endothermic) in fusing to boron8 atoms.

But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the excited state in boron-8 could decay by emitting one proton, making a brief pit stop at beryllium-7. However, one of these ways is energy forbidden and the other does not conserve isospin.

While conserving isospin is not a hard and fast rule, if there is any other way for the nucleus to decay, it will jump at that alternative. In this case the alternative, one that is both energy and isospin allowed, is to decay by emitting two protons in one step to an excited state in lithium-6, which is itself an isobaric-analog of the ground state of helium-6. This is the first time that decay by emitting two protons at the same time has been observed between isobaric analog states.

To make a long story short, In this decay channel the fusion of 2 He atoms will possibly end up with a number of sub atomic particles and one helium atom.

Another energetic path (the triple proton chain) is as follows:

1. B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)
2. Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)

This is what J Rohner must mean by the term Recombination. You start out with two helium atoms and you end up with two helium atoms plus a good deal of energy.


There is some unknowns involving boron 8 decay as follows:

For example, nuclei of boron-8 in the sun decay by spitting out an antielectron and an electron neutrino, and theorists can predict the number of such low-energy solar neutrinos. Researchers measured the actual number in the 1960s, counting rare events in which a chlorine nucleus in a tank of dry-cleaning fluid absorbed an electron neutrino and emitted an electron. They found only one-third as many electron neutrinos as predicted, suggesting that the particles were turning into something else during their trip from the sun to Earth.
 
  • #41
Evo
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This thread is not appropriate for the forum.
 

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