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Not guilty. The Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl

  1. Nov 22, 2005 #1
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

    Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
    · Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

    The transcript

    The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl

    From the watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

    From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

    Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

    A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts

    Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."

    Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

    Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman

    "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 22, 2005 #2

    Evo

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    Bilal, you need to state what in the story you wish to specifically discuss. Threads of this nature, with nothing more than a link to story aren't going be allowed going forward.
     
  4. Nov 22, 2005 #3

    Art

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    This was despicable. Perhaps one day Israel will realise it is actions such as this that make people so critical of her and has nothing to do with the jewish religion; though I suspect in reality they already know that. Accusing people who criticise Israel's actions of being anti-semitic is simply a way to deflect attention away from the issue and put their detractors on the defensive.
     
  5. Nov 22, 2005 #4

    Hurkyl

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    AFAIK, claims of anti-Semitism are based on the perception that some people are far more willing to criticize Israeli actions than those of others, and not just a knee-jerk "OMG, he's criticizing an Israeli, he must be anti-Semetic!" attitude.
     
  6. Nov 23, 2005 #5
    True sometimes but not always.

    Also could it be that with Israel there just may be more to criticize? If they did more bad stuff, couldn't someone bring up Israeli atrocities more often because there are more to bring up, not because they're anti-semetic?
     
  7. Nov 23, 2005 #6

    Art

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    One unfortunately expects attocities from terrorist groups as that is what they do and why they are reviled by most people.

    One rightly expects a higher standard of behaviour from so called civilised states which is why they are more heavily criticised when they practice the same methods as terrorist scum. In fact it is the terrorists' acts which defiine them and so when states practice these same acts they too become terrorist scum.

    One of the problems with the 'war on terror' is it is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the 'good' guys and the 'bad' guys with neither side adhering to the rules of war or the Geneva Conventions or even simple human morals.
     
  8. Nov 23, 2005 #7

    kat

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    I Guess I Always Thought That One Thing That Defined The Difference Is That In Dealing With The "good Guys" The "bad Guys"..never Had To Worry That Their Children Were Going To Be Used To Attack Them Or Were Going To Be Used As Human Bombs.
     
  9. Nov 23, 2005 #8

    Astronuc

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    I guess the biggest problem I have with this is -
    Of course, I am not there, nor am I in a position of facing suicide bombers, snipers or rocket attacks at any moment.

    I find the act of killing any child abhorrent, but then it is no less abhorrent than suicide/homicide bombers blowing up unarmed civilians, especially children.

    Here's a novel idea - just simply STOP the violence - period!
     
  10. Nov 23, 2005 #9
    all most all of the people in this mess are semitic
    thats why I dislike the anti-Semitism label
    arabs who dislike jews are not racist as they are the very same race
    and many jews are also anti -arab but are NOT accusued of being anti-semitic
    this mess is about a zionist idea a religious + political idea
    and the militant moslem responce to it
    with race not a part of it

    thats why I am againts both the militants be they jew or moslem
    as they are both reglious NUTS with a political agenda

    while stoping the violence is a good start
    a fair and balanced plan is needed
    so the rights of all people are protected
    and as far as possible past wrongs are corrected
     
  11. Nov 23, 2005 #10

    Art

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    Can you quote an example where a 3 year old was used as a human bomb please or a 10 year old for that matter? There are however numerous examples of children been killed by both the 'bad guys' and the 'good guys'. PS ARe YoU HaVINg ProbLEMS WitH YouR CAps LoCK? :tongue2:
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2005
  12. Nov 23, 2005 #11

    kat

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    um...there was a ten year old suicide bomber in iraq...but I'm trying to find where I mentioned an age...
    Not sure how that happened...:redface:
     
  13. Nov 23, 2005 #12

    Art

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    In the OP the barbarian who killed the little girl was recorded saying that if a 3 year old entered the security zone they were to be shot. That is the context of this discussion.
     
  14. Nov 23, 2005 #13
    Well Jews and Arabs are a little different ethnically speaking, but you're right that it's not so much an ethnic dispute. It's just that there's a significant portion of Muslims, like Iran's president, who are anti-zionist. And sure as heck don't want a state based on a faith so contradictory to the Quran on what they see as their turf. There are some who can't have that; Israel's existence is an insult to them, for this political reason the chaos continues.
     
  15. Nov 23, 2005 #14

    Moonbear

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    Sadly, there's no way to know if the girl was "scared to death" because of the presence of the soldiers, or because she had been sent as a decoy. The first statement from the watchtower said she was "moving defensively." What does that mean? Do the soldiers have reason to believe that terrorists will use children for suicide missions or other reasons, because the terrorists think nobody will stop a child? I don't know what to think about this...it's horrific that children are being shot, but I also can't imagine having to be the one sitting up in the watchtower trying to decide if a child carrying a backpack might be headed my way with a bomb. Do you risk killing an innocent child, or risk not killing a child being used as a pawn of terrorists and getting yourself and your fellow soldiers killed? War is quite ugly; horrific things happen, and both sides are involved. There's a reason people come back from wars suffering post-traumatic stress disorder and having nightmares and flashbacks, because they see and participate in horrific things that no person should ever have to see or do.
     
  16. Nov 23, 2005 #15

    Art

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    Did you read the article???
    At the time she was killed she was absolutely no threat to the soldiers. It was fellow soldiers who reported Cap'n R who claimed they were 'out to get him' out of religious bigotry which is why I made the point earlier that this seems to be a common defense in Israel.
     
  17. Nov 23, 2005 #16
    If i read the article correctly, this dilemma (I agree with you, a dilemma) is not applicable to this situation. The officer unloaded a clip into a 13 yr old human being. He didn't kill her, he shredded her, if the accusations are true. "Unloaded his clip" at close range, That means bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang... you get the point.
    Well, the soldier denies shooting the girl, but says he shot around her, even though the autopsy shows numerous bullet wounds inflicted at close range, including 3 to the head. Since it appears that your post assumes the soldier did shoot the girl numerous times at close range (correct me if i'm wrong), it should not matter that war is ugly, the soldier is guilty of conduct unbecoming. As for whether he is a criminal for this, i agree that an insanity defense wouldn't be unreasonable, though i have my doubts about this guy.
    "The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically"." Moral relativism at its worst.
     
  18. Nov 25, 2005 #17

    Moonbear

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    Sorry, I thought the debate was over them shooting a "scared to death" child, not over how many times they shot the corpse. I misunderstood the emphasis of what people were getting upset about, if that's the case. From the article, I thought many of the shots hit her backpack (not clear if they also hit her), and were to assure them before approaching that there was nothing that would detonate in the backpack. But, yes, I'd agree with you that numerous shots at close range make it more egregious. I also don't know if she was dead or just wounded by the first shot. Once taking her down and being sure there were no explosives on her, rather than continue shooting to kill, they could have sent her for medical assistance.

    I don't know if this is relevant to the situation, but if someone were an intruder in your home and you shot them once or twice, a defense that it was self-defense would probably get you let off by a jury, but if you continued shooting the intruder 15 more times, you'd very likely be serving time for murder.
     
  19. Nov 25, 2005 #18
    This is eerily similar to some Brazilian guy shot to death in London subway last summer. It seems that the fear that terrorists can instill creates some pretty bad trigger-happy impulse responses.
     
  20. Nov 26, 2005 #19
    The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically"- who is the army publishing these investigations for? they sound like a farce
     
  21. Nov 27, 2005 #20
    There's always looking up the reason why he was aquitted. Apparently Captain R was framed because he wasn't a Jew...I mean 'liked.' But boy isn't that qutie the under reported little nugget.

    Jpost

     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2005
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