Not guilty. The Israeli captain who put 17 bullets into a Palestinian schoolgirl

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  • Thread starter Bilal
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  • #26
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I for one find it difficult to imagine how such a story could be so quickly contrived by a group of soldiers. Especially the amazing allegation that tapes were edited by soldiers in his unit to support this supposed conspiracy.

A more likely explanation would be that the allegations 'including' the brutal killing of the girl, were true but the IDF and it's military court decided the attendant bad publicity warranted a cover up.

Then why was the coverup not trumped at full volume? What is the point of making a cover-up and then hiding it from everyone? Clearly the fact that he was set up is quite the burried piece of information by the IDF.

Maybe, you're right I just can't see the logic in it. I think its much more likely that they wanted to cover up the amount of racism that exists within the ranks of their soldiers. Racism is probably what leads to most of the atrocities against the palestinians

you have a source showing where the alleged perpetrators of this conspiracy have been charged in relation to what would be a very serious offence? I would be more inclined to believe in this conspiracy allegation if that were the case.

I have been attempting to do some reasearch into the topic, however it is quite difficult to find any information. If you find anything let me know.
 
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  • #27
Bilal
There are only two suicide bombers are younger than 18 years. Their age is around 17 years. They did the attacks without the knowledge of their families (one of them was a girl who wanted to revenge for her fiancé).
(P.S: there are more than two American kids (less than 14 years old) who murdered their classmates by guns?!) .In addition to that, the Jews militant settlers in the Palestinian occupied land teach their kids to use weapons and how to kill the Palestinian, could you use the same logic against the American and Israeli kids)
Zlex said:
And please, I didn't blame 'the' Palestinians. If anything I would blame the awful parents these kids must have had. And I am not blind to the fact that children are used in terrorist bombings.
 
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  • #28
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Bilal said:
There are only two suicide bombers are younger than 18 years. Their age is around 17 years. They did the attacks without the knowledge of their families (one of them was a girl who wanted to revenge for her fiancé).
(P.S: there are more than two American kids (less than 14 years old) who murdered their classmates by guns?!) .In addition to that, the Jews militant settlers in the Palestinian occupied land teach their kids to use weapons and how to kill the Palestinian, could you use the same logic against the American and Israeli kids)

Bilal,

I do my best to remain as unbiased as possible when it comes to the whole Palestinian-Israeli issue. But I am widely effected by what I read and hear and see.

I do know that what you claim is factually incorrect, and I know it just from memory. A few names come to mind, Husam Abdu. Ayat Akhras(sp?), I also remember there were three young boys who tried a sneak attack on Netzarim. I think the use of children 'soldiers' is quite well documented, and unfortunatly exceeds far more then two.

I am not trying to say that the Isralies are any better, in fact I'm not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out the reason for such a policy.

And if you think Columbine did not effect American's thinking on children and guns, you're dead wrong. Look up Allen Newsome, or Tommy Davis.
 
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  • #29
Bilal
Zlex said:
Bilal,
I do my best to remain as unbiased as possible when it comes to the whole Palestinian-Israeli issue. But I am widely effected by what I read and hear and see.
I do know that what you claim is factually incorrect, and I know it just from memory. A few names come to mind, Husam Abdu. Ayat Akhras(sp?), .
Those are the two people whom already mentioned, their age from 16 years to 17 years. Ayat Akhras lost her fiancé and she decided to revenge. Her family shocked when they knew about her attack. Do not forget that every Israeli in age of 17 – 18 years should join the army.
Zlex said:
I also remember there were three young boys who tried a sneak attack on Netzarim. I think the use of children 'soldiers' is quite well documented, and unfortunatly exceeds far more then two.
They were three kids: 14 years, 13 years and 13 years. They planned to attack the settlers, they were killed on the borders of the settlement and all what they had is just knives. Their families were shocked, and all the Palestinian resistance organizations asked the families to watch their kids.
I am not trying to say that the Isralies are any better, in fact I'm not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out the reason for such a policy.
And if you think Columbine did not effect American's thinking on children and guns, you're dead wrong. Look up Allen Newsome, or Tommy Davis.
It is the same as the story of the poor three teenagers whom are murdered near Netsarim. After that accident, Palestinian families and schools start to watch the students in the age of 12 to 16 years all the time.

There is another story you can add it to your memory. After the end of the school courses, a mother found the school bag of her 8 years old child near the door. She opened the bag of her little daughter to find a letter: mum forgive me, I am going to revenge from those ...’’

Her mother called the Palestinian police …. They found her just 100 meter far from the settlements of Nitzarim carrying a knife in her hand.

These accidents are normal reactions of kids and teenagers who watch everyday the Israeli soldiers and settlers mistreating their parents, teachers, cousins …
 
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  • #30
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They were three kids: 14 years, 13 years and 13 years. They planned to attack the settlers, they were killed on the borders of the settlement and all what they had is just knives.

I recall reading that they were also carrying a home made explosive device, I think a pipe-bomb.

These accidents are normal reactions of kids and teenagers who watch everyday the Israeli soldiers and settlers mistreating their parents, teachers, cousins

I do feel that one source of these actions is anger due to the mistreatement of those around them. But there is also the massive glorification of becoming a martyr that seems to exist within the Palestinian youth, blatently instilled through indoctination. I'm sure you've read about the wonderful summer camps some of the Palestinain youths attend. When you ask children what they want to be when they grow up they should say a doctor, or a laywer, not a martyr, and that is hardly normal.

Even from the interview with Husam you get the feeling that something isn't quite right. Yes, he expresses that he wants to hurt the Israelis because they hurt him:

Just like they came and caused our parents sadness and suffering they too should feel this. Just like we feel this - they should also feel it.

But then from the rest of his statements I get the stark feeling that his reasons aren't so well grounded.

The reason was because my friend was killed.

The second reason I did it is because I didn't want to go to school.

My parents forced me to go to school and I didn't feel like going.


I get the distinct feeling that other factors may have played a major role in his decision.

It's not suicide - it's martyrdom.

I would become a martyr and go to my God. It's better than being a singer or a footballer. It's better than everything.


What is the source of such nonesense?

Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution."


The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die

The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel.

They are taught that to give their lives is to be guaranteed a place in heaven.

And to be a suicide bomber is one of the highest forms of martyrdom.

They will be greeted in paradise by 70 virgins
BBC NEWS


As I've said before I am highly influenced by the things that I read and hear on the news. I think that the Israelis have more then a few reasons to worry that children may be carrying explosive devices.
 
  • #31
Bilal
Zlex said:
I recall reading that they were also carrying a home made explosive device, I think a pipe-bomb.

Whatever they had, they did it by themselves (nobody send them as you claim).

I do feel that one source of these actions is anger due to the mistreatement of those around them. But there is also the massive glorification of becoming a martyr that seems to exist within the Palestinian youth, blatently instilled through indoctination. I'm sure you've read about the wonderful summer camps some of the Palestinain youths attend. When you ask children what they want to be when they grow up they should say a doctor, or a laywer, not a martyr, and that is hardly normal.

There is a revolution in Palestine since 20s against the Zionist invasion. It is logical that all the Palestinian parties: secular, Islamic, Christian, atheists, communists .... prepare their individuals for long term revolution, which could extend for generations.

Martyr is the person who killed during his defense of his homeland, money, family, or during his fighting against aggressors. Also it means those who died during their travel to get knowledge.
Martyrs are respectful people in all cultures, I never hear that any nation do not show respect to people who died while they fighting the invaders?

Islamic Jihad is one of 18 Palestinian originations representing all the political horizons from the extreme right to the extreme left. It is the same for the Palestinian leftists who believe that this war is against imperialism. They consider Che Givara as their spiritual leader ... the Palestinian nationalists believe that George Habash is their leader and they should unite as Arab nation (Christian, Muslims ... etc) against the Zionists. We are a democratic nation since decades and we accept the views of every political party. It is war time and all should prepare for that …

Do not forget that Algerian fought for 131 years based on these ideas to get independence from France. In Middle Ages, Palestinian with the support of the rest of ME nations fought bravely the crusaders for 200 years based on ''resistance culture''.

It is "to be or not to be’’, so losing this war means that our country ''Palestine'' will be removed from the map forever. It is war for existence ...


.
Even from the interview with Husam you get the feeling that something isn't quite right. Yes, he expresses that he wants to hurt the Israelis because they hurt him:
But then from the rest of his statements I get the stark feeling that his reasons aren't so well grounded.
I get the distinct feeling that other factors may have played a major role in his decision.
What is the source of such nonesense?.

Did you read about the other side? Did you read about the Jews settlers of Hebron? Did you read how they teach their kids?

As I've said before I am highly influenced by the things that I read and hear on the news. I think that the Israelis have more then a few reasons to worry that children may be carrying explosive devices.

I can say the same about the settlers’ kids, they have guns and they shot several times o the Palestinian farmers so what is your point now?!

Here is a picture from the settlers’ camps in WB:

Using the same logic, can I say that Palestinian have the right to worry about those kids?

http://www.allaboutpalestine.com/images/jpegs/is_kid.jpg [Broken]

Israeli culture is based on Samson (the first suicide bomber in human history. He murdered hundreds of Palestinian kids and women in Gaza 3000 years ago. His name is mentioned in the Jews holy books as a hero …
 
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  • #32
Bilal
Zlex,

This is a sory of the most well known Isareli lawyer who defends suicide bombers, I am sure she know much about this topic.
Here is from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3087051.stm

Born in the Israeli port of Haifa in 1945, Ms Tsemel was 22 when Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Six Day War, the outcome of which, she says, affected her profoundly.

"Only in the '67 war did I realise really what it was all about. Until then I was a very moderate Zionist woman.

"The occupation made it very clear to me that there was something wrong, and I started to ask myself all kinds of questions and came to the conclusion that Zionism is negative and bad, and that we are oppressing the Palestinians.

"Since then my future career was more or less determined."

"It used to be Molotov cocktails, but it has changed. I see suicide bombings as just another development - a technical development, nothing else.

"Everyone fights with their abilities - the Israelis have helicopters and rockets and the Palestinians have nothing but themselves and some very primitive home-made explosives."

Such "primitive" home-made explosives have killed hundreds of Israelis and maimed countless more, many in the streets just yards from where we are sitting.

"I grew up in an Israeli culture where suicide attackers are really heroes", she says.

"Look at Samson, who in order to fight the Philistines in Gaza made the theatre collapse on himself and all the civilians there. He is a very big hero among Jewish children.

"I grew up on the myth of better suicide than surrender. So what is so special about suicide bombers?"

"I don't understand why people would find my views abhorrent. If you ask any Israeli to put himself in a similar situation of occupation and oppression for 36 years - everyone would say they would do the same, including [Israeli Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon.

"I don't support such actions or see this as the solution, but I can very well understand how suicide bombings became a very popular way of fighting - first, because it is quite successful; secondly, because people are ready to risk everything in order to achieve some progress in the national struggle.

"They feel it was something they had to do. No-one that I know was tempted into it. They all volunteered themselves.

"Those who were stopped before they could explode their bomb are happy they were not killed and they see it as a sign of God, that God did not want them to die."
 
  • #33
josh1
Here's an idea. Instead of murdering other's, why don't arabs just blow themselves up at home as a kind of faith based statement in the belief that they'll be rewarded in the next world. In fact, they may as well forget about bombs and just take an overdose of sleeping pills (recommended for female terrorists) or shoot themselves in the head (recommended for male terrorists) or just get together and cut each other's heads off, since they seem to have a real penchant for that.
 
  • #34
selfAdjoint
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josh1 said:
Here's an idea. Instead of murdering other's, why don't arabs just blow themselves up at home as a kind of faith based statement in the belief that they'll be rewarded in the next world. In fact, they may as well forget about bombs and just take an overdose of sleeping pills (recommended for female terrorists) or shoot themselves in the head (recommended for male terrorists) or just get together and cut each other's heads off, since they seem to have a real penchant for that.


I believe Islam, like Christianity defines suicide as a sin, but martyrdom in support of the Faith as a sure guarantee of salvation. In neither case do they tend to look all that close at the detailed circumstances of the martyrdom, but there's the unspoken warning: "Don't try this at home!"
 
  • #35
Bilal
Here is an idea also. Instead of stealing the land of other nation by terrorism, and destroying the other culture based on biblical myth, why the Zionists can not establish their biblical homeland in Texas ?

josh1 said:
Here's an idea. Instead of murdering other's, why don't arabs just blow themselves up at home as a kind of faith based statement in the belief that they'll be rewarded in the next world. In fact, they may as well forget about bombs and just take an overdose of sleeping pills (recommended for female terrorists) or shoot themselves in the head (recommended for male terrorists) or just get together and cut each other's heads off, since they seem to have a real penchant for that.
 
  • #36
Bilal
I do not believe in what called religious ware between Judaism and Islam. We have Palestinian Jews who living in my city since 3000 years, also we have many Christian. This is pure political conflict between the Zionists who believe that Palestinian are inferior nation and they should give their country to the Jews, and on the other hand the Palestinian who believe that they should defend their country and their lives by all means.

There is a problem with some scholars of the extreme salafi Muslims who represent a tiny percentage of Muslims. I am sure they have many similar groups among all the rest of religions.

I am not so religious, but at least I know these verses of Koran which reject sucide and violence:

. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).
"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."
- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)
And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors."
- Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2:190)


selfAdjoint said:
I believe Islam, like Christianity defines suicide as a sin, but martyrdom in support of the Faith as a sure guarantee of salvation. In neither case do they tend to look all that close at the detailed circumstances of the martyrdom, but there's the unspoken warning: "Don't try this at home!"
 
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  • #37
223
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josh1 said:
Here's an idea. Instead of murdering other's, why don't arabs just blow themselves up at home as a kind of faith based statement in the belief that they'll be rewarded in the next world. In fact, they may as well forget about bombs and just take an overdose of sleeping pills (recommended for female terrorists) or shoot themselves in the head (recommended for male terrorists) or just get together and cut each other's heads off, since they seem to have a real penchant for that.
Hey great idea... I can see you have thought that one through :confused:
 
  • #38
Art
Anttech said:
Hey great idea... I can see you have thought that one through :confused:
Racists rarely think things through. That's why they're racists.
 
  • #39
223
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I do feel that one source of these actions is anger due to the mistreatement of those around them. But there is also the massive glorification of becoming a martyr that seems to exist within the Palestinian youth, blatently instilled through indoctination."

Do you think its a coincedence that Martydom is highly regarded in Islam, after the slaughter of Mulsims by the Christian crusades into Jersulem? ...

You reap what you soe
 

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