Obama quits Chicago church after long controversy

[phyzmatix]

That is a bit of an ends justifies the means argument...

I hope my argument didn't come across as if I was supporting/trying to justify the atrocities committed during slavery since that definitely wasn't my intent. Apologies if my post can be interpreted as such.

I think people such as the Rev Wright are part of the problem rather than part of the solution and do the black community a huge disservice by telling them they are not responsible for their own shortcomings. Sure tell them how bad things used to be, history is important, but this should be tempered with a message of hope. That in the US today blacks can do as well as any other race and it is up to each individual to work hard to achieve their goal.

Whether Rev Wright is well intentioned albeit misguided and actually believes his own message is debatable. From what I have seen of his personal wealth I suspect he is cynically living his American dream off the backs of the blacks he claims to care so much about. If this is the case his exploitation is no better than the exploitation by the white slave owners he complains so much about.

That is very well put Art and is pretty much the same problem we have here on my side of the water as well.

 

[Benzoate]

Screaming to a group of black people that they have been repeatedly raped by American Whites? That's not hate mongering? Of I'm sure that did a lot of good to help smooth over racial tensions. And there were small children listening to him, what are they supposed to think? He's telling the congregation, throughout his sermon that white people are against blacks. Did you see the snippet of him praising Rev Wright, again evil White people are against them.

This is why Obama had to leave, not the parody of Clinton.

I went to a black church where our preacher would often mixed politics with religion. Our church even had guest preachers who explicit refer to whites as 'devils' and refer them as a clueless group of people who did not understand the "plight black americans face". But , like most of the members of my church , I never swallowed everything the pastor spout out at our congregation. Most of the members accepted the flaws of our preacher(, he squander the church's money, putting our church in $700,000 worth of debt, he was a womanizer,he cheated on his wife, and so many other unimaginable things). However, my church did not have a strong influence on the beliefs I hold as an adult today. In fact , I no longer consider myself a christian for reasons independent of my church.

As a result, my preachers politics did not have any affect on what I believe today. Come to think of it, I never learned anything from my pastor; When I was somewhat of a christian fanatic back in the day, I always followed the teachings of the bible more so than the teachings of my pastor

 

[Benzoate]

Very true Evo.

If you pursue that line (compensation for past injustices) of reasoning, where does one stop then? Should the Brits, the French, etc start nailing the Italians for what the Roman empire did? Should Russia, China, India (in fact, pretty much all of Asia and a large part of Eastern Europe) start asking for compensation from the Mongolians?

*****ing and moaning about injustices or unfairness in the past (even on a personal level) serves no purpose other than keeping old feuds and hatred alive.

Man, I get so angry about this. That reverend should be grateful that his ancestors were taken to the US as slaves because he has access to all the opportunities and advantages associated with living in a developed country.

There are about 800 million Africans, many of who are facing death through ethnic cleansing, starvation, exposure and disease on a daily basis and pretty much all of who would love to trade places with him if he really feels that an injustice was done to him.

I guess one could also make the argument, if not for Western Civilization strong opposition to slavery in the mid 1800's and European imperialism, slavery would still be very common in many parts of the world. At the time westerners were starting to oppose slavery, their were many cultures who strongly wanted to preserved the institution of slavery.

Yes, slavery shouldn't be perceived as being exclusively practiced by whites. It is an institution all cultures are guilty of.

 

[quadraphonics]

I guess one could also make the argument, if not for Western Civilization strong opposition to slavery in the mid 1800's and European imperialism, slavery would still be very common in many parts of the world.

Slavery *is* still very common in many parts of the world. There are more people in slavery today than at any point in human history. This includes the West, which, by virtue of its high level of development, is the world's most lucrative market for sex slaves.

 

[Benzoate]

Slavery *is* still very common in many parts of the world. There are more people in slavery today than at any point in human history. This includes the West, which, by virtue of its high level of development, is the world's most lucrative market for sex slaves.

You are right. There are more slaves today than their were 500 years ago. But the reason why there are more slaves now than in previous years, is simply because the human population has grown exponential. According to centerforglobal education , there are estimitated to be around 12 million slaves in the world. But, 12 million out of 6 billion people hardly constitutes as the norm.

 

[AhmedEzz]

ere are more slaves today than their were 500 years ago

I don't know but I'm not entirely convinced.

there are estimitated to be around 12 million slaves in the world

12 million slaves? that's shocking...do u have a credible source?

Yes, slavery shouldn't be perceived as being exclusively practiced by whites. It is an institution all cultures are guilty of.

I couldn't agree more. What really saddens me is that Islam banns any kind of slavery yet we find it present in some areas in Yemen, Saudi-Arabia, the Gulf and some other areas. It really makes me sad, some people in those countries have truly **** heads.

 

[quadraphonics]

You are right. There are more slaves today than their were 500 years ago. But the reason why there are more slaves now than in previous years, is simply because the human population has grown exponential. According to centerforglobal education , there are estimitated to be around 12 million slaves in the world. But, 12 million out of 6 billion people hardly constitutes as the norm.

The number I've seen quoted most often is 27 Million slaves in the present world, although there are other estimates that range much much higher than that. But it is also true that this represents the smallest portion of the human population that has ever been enslaved, even while it is the largest absolute number of slaves.

 

[AhmedEzz]

27 millions? really?

 

[TVP45]

Very true Evo.


That reverend should be grateful that his ancestors were taken to the US as slaves because he has access to all the opportunities and advantages associated with living in a developed country.

.

Surely you're being ironic and I'm not getting it??

 

[quadraphonics]

27 millions? really?

That's what Wikipedia says anyway. Interestingly, slaves are today much, much cheaper to buy than they were back in the days of chattel slavery (after adjusting for inflation, of course). Seems like there's a new horror story about some underground child slaves in China every week these days, and of course the various conflicts in Africa end up producing countless slaves. And then there's the sex slave trade, which is huge all over the world.

 

[AhmedEzz]

I got to open my mind up more.

 

[drankin]

I guess you haven't read much about the horrible poverty of American Indians?



http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/07/07/clinton.tour/

I'm not arguing the state of a lot of Indians, I'm arguing that there has been recompense, after you said there has not been.

I've worked for a native foundation run by native americans, I've married a native american woman, I have native american children. You can't tell me anything I haven't already seen with my own eyes.

To say there has not been recompense is simply wrong!

 

[Evo]

I'm not arguing the state of a lot of Indians, I'm arguing that there has been recompense, after you said there has not been.

I've worked for a native foundation run by native americans, I've married a native american woman, I have native american children. You can't tell me anything I haven't already seen with my own eyes.

To say there has not been recompense is simply wrong!

We took everything and gave them virtualy nothing, that is not recompense.

 

[mheslep]

That is a bit of an ends justifies the means argument, but it is hard to dispute the fact that the decendents of many slaves had or have it better here than they would [have] in Africa.

I think it was Eddy Murphy who did a routine about his trip to Africa... or maybe it was Whoopie Goldberg. She talked about how she got all fired-up about being African; the clothes and customs, the music, the food, etc. And then she went to Africa and discovered that in fact, [paraphrasing I'm sure] she is American, not African.

Pretty sure that was Tina Turner.

 

[TR345]

We took everything and gave them virtualy nothing, that is not recompense.

They do get some recompense, they get free housing and other money for living etc. In the reservation at the town I live in, many are on a waiting list for their free houses though. My sisters ex boyfriend used to get large checks from his tribe, and now they get money from the casinos too.

The problem I see with the way that Native Americans get compensated is that it in a way keeps them down. They get free housing at the reservation which keeps them in the reservation, and they get enough money to live without a job. The reservation here is full of problems like drugs, gang mentality, lack of education, and too much drinking. I kind of feel they would be better off without the compensation so that they would be forced to make something of themselves and get educated so that they don't just hang around doing drugs and drinking.

Not saying they shouldn't get anything though. It wouldn't be right to force them to integrate. If I was a Native American, I wouldn't want to learn history from the government who raped my people and country. They say that in war, the winners write the history books.

 

[drankin]

They do get some recompense, they get free housing and other money for living etc. In the reservation at the town I live in, many are on a waiting list for their free houses though. My sisters ex boyfriend used to get large checks from his tribe, and now they get money from the casinos too.

The problem I see with the way that Native Americans get compensated is that it in a way keeps them down. They get free housing at the reservation which keeps them in the reservation, and they get enough money to live without a job. The reservation here is full of problems like drugs, gang mentality, lack of education, and too much drinking. I kind of feel they would be better off without the compensation so that they would be forced to make something of themselves and get educated so that they don't just hang around doing drugs and drinking.

Not saying they shouldn't get anything though. It wouldn't be right to force them to integrate. If I was a Native American, I wouldn't want to learn history from the government who raped my people and country. They say that in war, the winners write the history books.

There's a lot of truth in that. When you see them getting thousands of dollars a year and sometimes huge bulk monies (ex-wife got $100,000 one year) without earning it, it's hard for many of them to appreciate it. Some do, and make good use of it but many just squander it. Literally live on the streets, get their checks and drink them away. I've seen a lot of it. If I didn't have to work so hard to make a living, free money, free houses, free medical and dental, wouldn't mean so much to me either. Those that make use of it get a great advantage in life. Evo, when you see thousands of native Americans get checks for $100,000 in a single year just because, it's hard to say they don't get "recompense".

 

[AhmedEzz]

I saw on the news the other day how Native Americans are living. and I still can't believe that in the United States- the world's superpower- people live like that. Some don't even have running water, unemployment rates in the sky, poverty, under-education...I think that solving those issues is better than giving drunk people cheques.

 

[drankin]

I saw on the news the other day how Native Americans are living. and I still can't believe that in the United States- the world's superpower- people live like that. Some don't even have running water, unemployment rates in the sky, poverty, under-education...I think that solving those issues is better than giving drunk people cheques.

Would you care to give the US some ideas on "solving those issues"? Otherwise, what you are saying is just an unconstructive complaint.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

The Native American people have even more opportunities available to them than the average US citizen.

 

[Astronuc]

Some compensation is relatively recent, and not all Native American tribes have casinos. Not all states allow Indian gambling, and some tribes have been cheated by people like Jack Abramov.

Over the past two decades, it was revealed that the Dept of Interior mismanaged records and royalties.

Look at the folks on Pine Ridge.

The Native American people have even more opportunities available to them than the average US citizen.

That perhaps is true for some. But then none can enjoy the freedom in their own country in the land of their ancestors.


There definitely has to be a better way of improving the condition of those Native Americans who have been left out.


And what the disposition of Native Americans has to do with "Obama quitting Chicago [Trinity United] church" eludes me. Perhaps the posts on Native Americans could be split into their own thread.

 

[drankin]

Some compensation is relatively recent, and not all Native American tribes have casinos. Not all states allow Indian gambling, and some tribes have been cheated by people like Jack Abramov.

Over the past two decades, it was revealed that the Dept of Interior mismanaged records and royalties.

Look at the folks on Pine Ridge.


That perhaps is true for some. But then none can enjoy the freedom in their own country in the land of their ancestors.


There definitely has to be a better way of improving the condition of those Native Americans who have been left out.


And what the disposition of Native Americans has to do with "Obama quitting Chicago [Trinity United] church" eludes me. Perhaps the posts on Native Americans could be split into their own thread.

This is a good topic, I'll start a thread.

 

[quadraphonics]

But then none can enjoy the freedom in their own country in the land of their ancestors.

This is true of every person in America.

 

[TR345]

The thing that I find unfair about the recompense given to them, at least in this town, is that the reservation isn't a huge chunk of land. It is a small town here, and most people own at least a couple acres, many people own large parcels, and then there is the Rez. which is like a little suburb with houses right next to each other, sidewalks and stuff. They deserve more land, so that they have more room to build and stuff. At the Rez, they play catch on the street, at my house, I play catch in my yard. Something is wrong when the native americans in a community are living more like city people than the foreigners.

Giving them incentives to stay there on their little suburb which has a huge unemployment rate, and it turns into something you would see in the inner city with gangs and drugs/drug money etc.

 

[NeoDevin]

There is nothing preventing them from purchasing more than they are given on the Rez. It is, in the end, their own decision to remain in such conditions. In Canada, we have similar problems with many of the reservations. Most of the natives I've known who were (what I would call) successful in life (ie. no excessive use of drugs and/or alcohol and/or gambling), moved away from the reservations as soon as they could, and never looked back. Due to the gangs/drugs/generally bad influences common on many of the reservations, it is very difficult for a person living there to come out ahead.

 

[TR345]

Also, there is basically no law enforcement there, although they do have their own private security guards. One of the last times I was there, some kids were lighting a car on fire using gasoline.