Outrageous injustice

  • Thread starter Evo
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  • #51
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This is wrong, just because it's part of their religion, doesn't make it right.
I believe the morality in question can be seen by them as literally equal to religion, and is therefore morally right.

You know what I say? I say Israeli commandos, at 3 am, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HALO" [Broken] parachute jump into the prison, rescue her and radio for stealth helicopter, and bring her to Israel. See if her opinion on things changes just a bit.
 
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  • #52
DaveC426913
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I certainly hope they do. And they do. But how would improvement eventually come forth if we (and they) just ignored what they see as atrocities?
What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."
 
  • #53
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Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian regime. Without democracy, events like this one will continue to be sanctioned by the state. The deepest outrage is to deny an entire population (especially females) the right to enact their own laws.
 
  • #54
DaveC426913
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Objection 1) FLOGGING
Agreed.That is barbaric.

Objection 2) Women aren't treated as equal human beings, they have virtually no rights.
Agreed. That is barbaric.

That a woman is not allowed to be alone with a man that is not a relative, no matter how innocent. It's not just frowned upon, it's a crime punishable by flogging and prison!!!! A man with a woman that is not a relative, will not be punished.
Agreed. That is hypocritical, if true. I did not see in the article where it said that there was NOT a comparable law for men.

And that's just in this article. Want to start a discussion on the lack of women's right in Islamic countries?
Nope. Just wanted the cards on the table. That is a much more discussable list than we had at the start.
 
  • #55
Moonbear
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All I am saying is that: the article is NOT ABOUT the men - I will presume that their case is being dealt with.
Their sentence was doubled too.

The article is about this woman who committed a crime. Does everyone believe that Saudi Arabia has no right to impose a law upon its people that forbids the mixing of women with men that they do not know?
The punishment is extreme for such a crime, and that only the woman is punished in such a situation, not the man, makes it even more of an unreasonable law. If it is illegal for men and women to mix, then BOTH are guilty of that crime (she was not raped by the man she was with, she was raped by other men). To punish a crime that creates no physical harm with something that does cause physical harm should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.
 
  • #56
What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."
Their example isn't exactly the best one to learn from. But this is merely an example you've given. You're not really arguing against my point:

It's beneficial to judge another culture.
 
  • #57
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should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.
Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.
 
  • #58
Evo
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Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.
Are you saying that basic human rights should not be universal?
 
  • #59
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"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.
 
  • #60
Evo
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"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.
Yes, and that is why we should be pro-active in expecting human rights everywhere. Change sometimes has to be forced. It is not right that these women should be abused, and it is not right that we should stand by, aware of these atrocities, and say nothing.
 
  • #61
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What's with all the moral relativism in this thread? Remember, just because you think that we shouldn't claim the modern system of law is "better" than sharia laws, it doesn't mean that it's true for everyone.

Whatever system of law is imposed by any government, I think that such a decision is unbelievably barbaric, irrespective of cultural norms. It shows that some societies are still living in the stone age.
 
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  • #62
JasonRox
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And this thread isn't locked because...?
 
  • #63
DaveC426913
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Yes, and that is why we should be pro-active in expecting human rights everywhere. Change sometimes has to be forced. It is not right that these women should be abused, and it is not right that we should stand by, aware of these atrocities, and say nothing.
Agreed. Though it's a dicey issue. It has to be balanced with the right for others to govern their own culture. Those who don't respect that are no better than thugs.
 
  • #64
DaveC426913
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And this thread isn't locked because...?
Why would it be locked? It is certainly fertile ground for spirited discussion, but I don't see it getting outside of forum policy.
 
  • #65
We should go to war with them.
 
  • #67
Evo
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Agreed. Though it's a dicey issue. It has to be balanced with the right for others to govern their own culture. Those who don't respect that are no better than thugs.
You've never heard of human rights?
 
  • #68
Moonbear
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"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.
It happens, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD happen, or should continue to be PERMITTED to happen. That's why there are international human rights laws, because there are still human rights violations that need to be curtailed. Beating someone for the company she keeps certainly qualifies as a human rights violation.
 
  • #69
Integral
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Are you saying that basic human rights should not be universal?
What should be, and what is, are two different things.

Perhaps the best we can hope for is that the "world is watching" climate created by the Internet can begin to change some of these restrictive cultures. Meanwhile I do not see any point in pushing anger and hate in response to events in a foreign culture that we have no control over..
 
  • #70
Art
It happens, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD happen, or should continue to be PERMITTED to happen. That's why there are international human rights laws, because there are still human rights violations that need to be curtailed. Beating someone for the company she keeps certainly qualifies as a human rights violation.
Agreed and the UN is the place to enact universal common standards. Countries who refuse to sign up to the UN charter for human rights should be shunned by the other UN members until such time as they come into compliance.

Unfortunately the 57 Muslim nations who are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference refuse to sign up as they believe it is a christian judeo document that does not take into account Islamic Shari’ah laws.

This leaves the West and other more enlightened countries with a decision to make, whether to subject the non-signatories to sanctions or whether to ignore the gulf in standards re the status of women. The reality is the muslim states tend to have most of the world's oil and so their behaviour is glossed over by western gov'ts.

It is worth noting however that there are many women in these Islamic countries who are fiercely supportive of Shari’ah law who also resent the West's attempts to 'free them from oppression' and so what we view as unacceptable and barbaric behaviour does not seem to be seen in the same light by the 'victims'. It's hard to help people who don't believe they need helping.
 
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  • #71
Moonbear
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Agreed and the UN is the place to enact universal common standards. Countries who refuse to sign up to the UN charter for human rights should be shunned by the other UN members until such time as they come into compliance.

Unfortunately the 57 Muslim nations who are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference refuse to sign up as they believe it is a christian judeo document that does not take into account Islamic Shari’ah laws.
Do the Shari'ah laws dictate the punishments for violating the laws, or just describe what laws should be followed? It is one thing to say unrelated men and women should not be alone together without a chaperone (that may seem old-fashioned to Westerners, but is not by itself any sort of violation of human rights), and another to say that the woman should be lashed 90 (or now 200) times for it. That the punishment has changed over the course of appeals suggests that it is up to the judge to determine the punishment, not something that is fixed in the Shari'ah laws. So, rather than go about telling them they cannot have a law prohibiting unrelated men and women from being together, it makes more sense to focus specifically on ensuring the punishment does not exceed the crime.
 
  • #72
G01
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Well I didn't mean to imply that in USA you can get away with a rape like that and punish the victim. But our justice system isn't perfect, and people, innocent at that do get screwed.

I never said our justice system was perfect.



People arent sentenced to flogging in the US.

Women aren't treated like cattle (or worse) in the US.

This is what I was trying to point out.
 
  • #73
DaveC426913
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You've never heard of human rights?
As in: rights that are inviolate? that supercede the rights of cultures to govern themselves.

Hm. Point conceded.


(Does this mean I stand a chance of getting that physical? :tongue: )
 
  • #74
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Evo is right.

The Saudis know what they are doing and they know it is hypocritical. These judges who are passing these sentences are people who travel to Europe to party and drink. Then they come back to Saudi Arabia to act all holy and good. It is all about power and keeping women down. They know it is wrong and they do it anyway. Jesus was right when he called the religious leaders of his day a “den of vipers”. Not much has changed.
 
  • #75
Integral
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Evo is right.

The Saudis know what they are doing and they know it is hypocritical. These judges who are passing these sentences are people who travel to Europe to party and drink. Then they come back to Saudi Arabia to act all holy and good. It is all about power and keeping women down. They know it is wrong and they do it anyway. Jesus was right when he called the religious leaders of his day a “den of vipers”. Not much has changed.
Not sure what Jesus has to do with any of this. Mohammad did not start Islam until ~700AD.


What is your proposal for fixing the problem?
 

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