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News Palestine recognized by the UN as a non-member observer state

  1. Nov 29, 2012 #1
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/un-recognizes-palestine-as-non-member-observer-state-1.1058351

    I am honestly curious how this is detrimental to peace in the region. I don't really see any downside to this. Anybody care to enlighten me?
     
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  3. Nov 29, 2012 #2
  4. Nov 29, 2012 #3

    BobG

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    Even when the thread was started by the creator of this website (the thread rootx linked to).

    This thread doesn't have a chance.
     
  5. Nov 29, 2012 #4
    I found it's one of the topics that you only want to discuss with your personal friends. Recently, I was working and some people near started discussing this. That poisoned the environment for next two days! (The only good part was I kept myself out of that discussion)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  6. Nov 29, 2012 #5

    russ_watters

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  7. Nov 29, 2012 #6

    BobG

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    It gets down to the very definition of a nation. Is it the physical borders of the country or is a nation a group of people. If people are using different definitions, then the discussion isn't going to be particularly rational - and one can just pick their definition based on their viewpoint of the issues.

    If it's the physical borders, then Israel should have consisted of all the people that lived in that area. If a democratic government, then both Jewish and Palestinian should have had the same rights.

    If it's the group of people that are important, then the Jews in Israel are definitely a different group than the Palestinians and they can't exist in the same nation without one being consumed by the other just based on demographics and population growth.

    Nations consisting of different ethnic groups almost always fall apart into civil war, so I tend to think it's the group of people that wind up being more important.

    With, of course, the United States being the big exception. I don't think people realize just how rare it is for people from such drastically different backgrounds to coexist in one nation (even considering how imperfectly we sometimes seem to do it).
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  8. Nov 29, 2012 #7

    Evo

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    Could be because religion hasn't been a major dividing issue, so differences have been more rational.
     
  9. Nov 29, 2012 #8
    No, it wasn't, at least not specifics. Unless you're saying that giving Palestine access to the International Criminal Court is detrimental to peace. Have I missed something else in the article? I've read it 3 times and I cannot figure out specifically how this is bad for peace.

    The only thing presented in the article, aside from access to the International Criminal Court, are bald assertions that this is "a setback" and it "pushes peace backwards." What is missing from the article is specifically how that happens.

    I was not aware that Palestine is a banned topic here, as I now see was stated in the other thread. I apologize for starting this one, and understand if it must be closed.
     
  10. Nov 29, 2012 #9

    russ_watters

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    That was one of the reasons given, yes. Also:
    More here:
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/opinion/miller-abbas-un-statehood/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7
    So simply: creating an adversarial situation with the people you are supposed to be negotiating peace with is detrimental to peace.
     
  11. Nov 29, 2012 #10
    You just posted those bald assertions I was talking about.
    This doesn't address how it's detrimental, it's just saying it's not likely to be beneficial.
    This is what I meant by bald assertion. He asserts that this pushes peace backwards, but doesn't actually explain how, or what changes.
    This is a bald assertion by Rice, just stating that this is not progress towards peace without backing it up at all.

    Then, from your link,
    This is an angle that I hadn't considered, but it sounds really petty on Israel's part, if this is true. "We're mad that you're recognized as a nation by the UN, so we're not talking to you." That sounds like something said by a petulant child, not a first-world nation.

    I personally believe that leaving Palestine in a state of limbo (not a nation, not a part of Israel) was unsustainable. Either they were part of Israel, and therefore should have the same rights and protections that Israeli citizens have, or they were their own country, and they should be acknowledged as such. There was no sustainable middle ground.
     
  12. Nov 29, 2012 #11

    Evo

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    The Israelis are asking for three simple things in order to negotiate in good faith.

    Sounds fair to me.
     
  13. Nov 29, 2012 #12

    arildno

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    Cotton Mather (the guy whipping up the Salem witch hunt hysteria) was also convinced the heathen Natives were the devil's disciples.
    Not surprising, really..:frown:
     
  14. Nov 29, 2012 #13

    russ_watters

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    Ok....let me try to explain, but we do need to make sure we are clear on a recurring fact first:

    This move by the UN is completely unconnected to any peace process.

    Do you agree with that statement? There are currently no peace negotiations going on or planned and this move by the UN does not include any discussion about starting them. So this, in and of itself, does nothing to advance toward peace. All it can do is help or hurt relationships that can later help or hurt peace.

    Right?

    So stating that "Palestine" is a "state" is making a statement that is contrary to the reality that Palestine can only really become a "state" after negotiating peace with Israel (or destroying Israel, of course). Do you see how that could annoy Israelis? Make them trust the PA less and want to negotiate less?

    So to me, what you are calling a "bald assertion" is more an obvious reality and a logical extension.
    I happen to disagree about what this says about Israel's maturity, but that's just opinions and doesn't change the reality. If you poke someone in the eye, they aren't going to like it.
    I completely agree, but this move by the UN doesn't have anything to do with that. It changes nothing on the ground.

    I realize that you are on the side of the Palestinians here and you see this as a good thing for them, to give them international standing. And that may be true. But don't confuse good for the PA with being the same as good for the peace process. It isn't the same thing.

    I guess we can make it even simpler: if an Israeli says they don't like this, that means it hurts the peace process. That's really all there is to it. It doesn't matter if you agree with their reason for not liking it -- it won't change the fact that they don't like it.

    So for example:
    This statement shouldn't need additional explanation. If peace can only happen through negotiation, then a one-sided resolution short-circuits that process. It seems perfectly obvious to me and it is tough to know how else to explain it.

    Heck, this move by the UN, at the request of the otherwise impotent Abbas may not even have anything at all to do with Peace with Israel or statehood for Palestine. It may even just be an internal power struggle.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  15. Nov 29, 2012 #14

    russ_watters

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    I'm not sure what your point is by bringing that up. The Salem witch trials happened a hundred years before the US existed.

    The statements made by Bob and Evo about our unusual diversity, inner peace and the possibility that it is because of religious freedom that doesn't exist in places where such conflicts exist are all true facts.
     
  16. Nov 29, 2012 #15

    arildno

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    And Americans were still happily exterminating heathen natives, well into the nineteenth century.
     
  17. Nov 29, 2012 #16
    Responding to if the US is really an exception:
    Immigrants coming to the US are usually well off and second have not yet established long enough. So, comparing the US/Canada multicultural societies to countries like Israel-Pales or India or Russia is like apples to oranges IMO. In other countries, people coexisted for many many centuries and almost annihilated each other.

    I find this topic much interesting than Israel-Pales in which I haven't seen anything new. Same people making same comments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  18. Nov 29, 2012 #17
    I would like to agree with that, but everything in the articles we've posted have been claiming this will hurt the peace process. In fact, the point I've been making is that this will neither help nor hurt the peace process. It is, as you say, unconnected.

    If the point is that Israel doesn't like recognizing that Palestine is a state, I can agree with that. But Israel doesn't like Palestine anyway, so I don't see how that changes anything. Don't tell me that Israel is willing to negotiate with Palestinians that lob missiles at them, but as soon as they try to become recognized as a country, THAT'S what crosses the line.

    I also disagree that Palestine can only be considered a "state" after negotiating peace with Israel. Was the United States born on July 4th, 1776? Or was it born September 3rd, 1783 with the signing of the Treaty of Paris? Right now, the international community recognizes Palestine as a state. That's good enough for me.
     
  19. Nov 29, 2012 #18

    russ_watters

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    I don't think Manifest Destiny had anything to do with religion: we wanted the land.
     
  20. Nov 29, 2012 #19

    russ_watters

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    That is true. I'm much more cynical about war than to think it tends to be about religion. Religion is just a cover story for fighting over land, IMO, and in the US we don't have people fighting over land like that.
     
  21. Nov 29, 2012 #20
    A possible bright spot here:

    This move could strengthen Abbas's more moderate Palestinian Authority at the expense of the more violent Hamas.
     
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