Personal Fable: The Illusion of Greatness in Science

[tim_lou]

"personal fable" and reality

there comes a point in life where one begins to think about life in a very serious way...

and this is exactly what is happening in my mind.

I have always wanted to do something great in my life. Amazed by many concepts and ingenuity in physics... I've decided that I wanted to be a physicist. Not just a physicist, but a GREAT physicist.

I always have a feeling that someday, I will make great discovery in the world of knowledge. I feel that I will the next noble prize winner someday...

However, I realize that the reality isn't that simple. Statistically speaking, there just can't be that many great people. My belief may simply be one of those adolescent psychology phenomenons. Yet, I still tend to believe in myself...

I need to understand the reality... how many people have always believed that one day, he/she will be the next Einstein or the next Euler? If you had had such thoughts, did you achieve your expectations and how does the thoughts change over time (as one gets older)?

 

[TMFKAN64]

"You are all unique, you are all individuals!"
"WE ARE ALL UNIQUE, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!"
"I'm not."

By all means, believe in yourself... but don't get delusional about it. Your goal should be to make a real contribution, and believe me, that's rare enough.

 

[quark80]

5 years ago I thought I was going to be the next Einstein...

Now I've let go of my delusions, reality set in at some point :tongue: I'll be great at what I do, but highly doubt I'll achieve greatness in the respect you're talking about.

 

[ZapperZ]

Whenever I read a post or thread like this, I cringe.

Here are some facts for you to deal with:

1. It takes, on average, 4 years of undergraduate education and 5 1/2 years of graduate education for a person in the US to receive a Ph.D in physics

2. It takes an average of an addition 3 years of postdoctoral experience for a Ph.D to land a permanent job in academia/research line.

The point in all of this is that physics is a difficult area of study. In fact, it is too difficult for someone to do it for the wrong reason. You will get discourage very easily if you think you can do it for the "fame and glory". Most of us in this field are willing to go through the long and laborious process because we simply can't see ourselves doing anything else. We feel so connected to the subject area that we're willing to sacrifice huge chunks of our lives to pursue that. Adding to that is the fact that one doesn't get a paycheck that is commensurate with the amount of effort one has put into get there. You'd make a lot more money, on average, being an engineer or other areas of study.

Again, if you do physics for the wrong reason, you'll get discouraged very easily. It is that difficult.

Zz.

 

[J77]

Agree with Zz.

Not to put the OP off their ambition but sometimes on threads like this - a like thread could be the mathematician's knowledge one on general math - I'd like to know the experience (age, education level, job etc.) of the poster.

 

[Apost8]

You don't have to be the next Einstein to be great. Having the courage and determination to pursue and complete an education in a difficult field like physics, mathematics, engineering, etc., is a GREAT achievement in-and-of itself. Those who have done so have nothing but my highest respect.

 

[Equilibrium]

Competition ...

There's always competition for that...
There will be always be a person more powerful than you...
and you get inferior for that...
and will lead you to discouragement...
and you will have no reason to live...
...
that person will always put you down...

Based on experience...
Got a mate who is about 5 times more diligent than me... and I am still tryin to supass him with hardwork

And that's what you need ... competition... i know it sucks

 

[acm]

Do it, then we will listen.

 

[Maxwell]

tim_lou,

What level are you at right now in your physics education?

 

[tim_lou]

I am a first year undergrad...

This post has nothing to do with whether or not I am sucessful, or whether I am discouraged. I simply want to know if my thinkings are common or not... and the reality behind what a person like me will ultimately become.

Either way, I will still love physics, I will still pursue a career goal as a physicist... I understand that one does not do physics for fame or glory, in fact I believe the primariy motivation behind physics is understanding the world. It just seems that there may be certain psychological changes occurring in my mind... and I want to see if others have the same experience.

 

[tim_lou]

after watching the American Idol (yeah yeah yeah, I watch it... It's not like a nerd can't watch american Idol)... I seem to realize that the American culture encourages this kind of thinking (thinking about how one can and will achieve greatness)...

just look at the huge number of people who believe they will be the next American Idol and got criticized and ridiculed...

 

[Maxwell]

I am a first year undergrad...

This post has nothing to do with whether or not I am sucessful, or whether I am discouraged. I simply want to know if my thinkings are common or not... and the reality behind what a person like me will ultimately become.

I'm sure thoughts like that are VERY common. However, they usually come from people who haven't even finished their undergraduate work yet.

That being said, I wish you luck.

 

[J77]

just look at the huge number of people who believe they will be the next American Idol and got criticized and ridiculed...

...but that "greatness" generally lasts for one week - then they fade into mediocrity, or at least they do on the UK show

 

[Sisyphus]

eh, when you're in high school and at the top of your math classes and whatnot, it's easy to think that you're the next big thing

Once you get into university though, you find out that there are a lot of people just as smart and determined as you, school becomes a lot more challenging, and that's kind of a wake up call.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

I shall one day describe the (macro/micro) cosmic, physical reality that we experience using only a single elegant equation -- how is that for ambition?

Here is the kicker:

My maths level is only officially up to Trigonometry since I didn't take Calculus in high school (and my college doesn't offer you a chance to test out of trig), although, I am unofficially working through calculus on my own (which am I developing a sharp intuition for, I believe).

 

[Moonbear]

There's a difference between high aspirations and fantasy. It can be fun to fantasize that someday you'll make the greatest discovery ever made and be rich and famous and maybe you'll even win the lottery and get to live in Disney World...*cough* :uhh: I digress. But, don't hang your sense of achievement, or motivation to choose your given field on it. Even those who have made major contributions to scientific understanding (i.e., something worthy of a Nobel prize) have had many, many, many failures along the way as well. Being able to pick yourself up from your failures and keep moving forward is what distinguishes someone who will be successful in research from someone who will burn out and change fields. If it still seems really easy, like you're just coasting along and know more than everyone else, you haven't learned enough yet to see where the challenges are...give it time...you'll meet them eventually, and then you'll understand what others here are saying.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

I look forward to reaching the level where you are no longer working through problems that have been solved and rigorously proved and instead, are faced with problems in which the entire community can't even begin to figure out how to properly approach the problem, let alone solve it.

 

[JasonRox]

I look forward to reaching the level where you are no longer working through problems that have been solved and rigorously proved and instead, are faced with problems in which the entire community can't even begin to figure out how to properly approach the problem, let alone solve it.

Sorry, but that day won't come. Even for the most gifted person on Earth.

 

[Ki Man]

:rofl: I've always loved physics but in Juinor high I qas convinced that I was the next einstein and that I would get the nobel prize for discovering perpetual motion and unifying gravity as the fifth dimension:rofl:

Looking back on my mr high days, its a wonder I even got through anything. Theres always that kind of bigheaded arrogance at some time. I WAS the next einstein in my mind

now I'm more down to earth. As long as I get something done, I'll be happy

 

[mattmns]

I'm sure most of us have been delusional in this sense at some point. I believe I was, but can't quite remember when. However, now I can say that I would definitely not want to be such a person. Spending your entire life, 24-7, on one subject would probably bore the hell out of me. Personally I think there are more things in life than Physics, or Math, or [insert topic of interest].

And do you really want to marry your cousin? :tongue2:

 

[quark80]

I went through the ego issue during undergrad. Aced high school, thought I was a genius...Got to uni with the ego roaming wild. Took me about 18 months to realize I wasn't as smart as I thought I was. That lasted till the end of 4th year.

A year of soul searching before starting the PhD made me realize that there was always going to be someone smarter than me out there, and that I've now come to terms with that. That was a life changing moment for me actually I don't HAVE to be the smartest person in the world (or even in the room).

 

[phun]

well yes, tim_liu did mention Einstein and Nobel Prize, and that might tick some people off, but I don't think it's "bad" for a kid playing basketball in a neighborhood park to dream of becoming Micheal Jordan someday...
Obviously, many of us were inspired by dreams like that when we didn't know much physics. Isn't that right?
I don't think he really meant fame or money by Einstein and Nobel Prize. Any college kid would know those are not the best way to achieve any of those. Not even close. Just aim as high as your imaginations allow, and adjust it as you deal with the reality.

 

[Ki Man]

I am the next Feynman

Everybody in science has that one time period when they believe they have the ultimate understanding of the universe and will be the next einstein. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that people good at science are rare and being a 'science nerd' has a stigma.

In a way, opening your eyes to science gets you on an 'intellectual high' and you believe you have 'mental superpowers as a thinker' and then you get a hangover and regret your stupidity, but that little ego boost kinda pushes you in the right direction of 'what am i going to dedicate my life to'

I thought i would get a nobel prize when I was 12 for the two perp. motion ideas i attached

 

[SeReNiTy]

The belief that there is always someone smarter than you is wrong...only because there is a finite amount of people on the Earth.

I honestly believe i will be great, I will have finished my undergrad in a couple of months and from day one was the best in everything I've put my mind to. I don't see that changing, so tim if you think you can do it, there is nothing stopping you.

 

[complexPHILOSOPHY]

Sarcasm doesn't translate well through the internet. The text distorts the intonation of my posts.

 

[berkeman]

I am a first year undergrad...

This post has nothing to do with whether or not I am sucessful, or whether I am discouraged. I simply want to know if my thinkings are common or not... and the reality behind what a person like me will ultimately become.

Either way, I will still love physics, I will still pursue a career goal as a physicist... I understand that one does not do physics for fame or glory, in fact I believe the primariy motivation behind physics is understanding the world. It just seems that there may be certain psychological changes occurring in my mind... and I want to see if others have the same experience.

I think you post a valid question, Tim, even if your poll options are too limited for us to work toward a useful distribution. Here are a few observations that I hope will help further the discussion and your thoughts:

-- The love of physics is key -- if you get goosebumps opening up a new text and reading ahead, or picking an advanced text off the library shelves and skimming, then you have some of what it takes to make a contribution (and enjoy doing it).

-- It is good to dream about lofty goals, but it is very important if you want to achieve high levels to understand what those high goals mean. The way that you achieve high goals is to set intermediate, acheiveable and measureable goals, and work your best and hardest to achieve those intermediate goals. And keep track of your progress, and evaluate where you are at pre-set milestones, so that you can adjust your effort and commitment and whatever else, to keep you on track for your long-range goals.

-- It's always important in physics and engineering IMO, to use the concept of "existence proofs" to help guide what you spend time on. Like, if you have a cool inspiration about a new way to do something, I've found it to be very important to look for a shortcut to an existence proof (or non-existence proof) to tell me whether I should spend any more cycles on the idea. You should get good at finding non-existence proofs to any perpetual motion-type of idea, and you should also get good at finding good existence proofs for ideas that you have that have real physical implementations. Be real and honest in this part of priortizing your creative cycles, and you will greatly increase your effectiveness.

-- I think it's good to keep the Nobel Prize in Physics (or other technical disciplines) as a long-range goal, IMO. That's what it is there for after all, right? To inspire great work by many, many technical people. Just keep in mind that it is only given for very real contributions on very imporatant subjects, not for pseudo-science.

Keep setting high goals (with corresponding sub-goals with milestones that you hit), working hard, being smart in your planning and work, and you will do very well. Best of luck. -Mike-

 

[quark80]

The belief that there is always someone smarter than you is wrong...only because there is a finite amount of people on the Earth.

Unless I have a sex change and then change my name to Stephen Hawking or Ed Witten, I think I can safely say that I'm not the smartest person in the world

 

[ZapperZ]

well yes, tim_liu did mention Einstein and Nobel Prize, and that might tick some people off, but I don't think it's "bad" for a kid playing basketball in a neighborhood park to dream of becoming Micheal Jordan someday...
Obviously, many of us were inspired by dreams like that when we didn't know much physics. Isn't that right?
I don't think he really meant fame or money by Einstein and Nobel Prize. Any college kid would know those are not the best way to achieve any of those. Not even close. Just aim as high as your imaginations allow, and adjust it as you deal with the reality.

Note that we're no longer talking about kids deaming about lofty dreams here. The OP is in college already! Believing in the tooth fairy is no longer appropriate. At this stage, reality should either have kicked in, or be kicked in.

I think you post a valid question, Tim, even if your poll options are too limited for us to work toward a useful distribution. Here are a few observations that I hope will help further the discussion and your thoughts:

-- It is good to dream about lofty goals, but it is very important if you want to achieve high levels to understand what those high goals mean. The way that you achieve high goals is to set intermediate, acheiveable and measureable goals, and work your best and hardest to achieve those intermediate goals. And keep track of your progress, and evaluate where you are at pre-set milestones, so that you can adjust your effort and commitment and whatever else, to keep you on track for your long-range goals.

I honestly believe i will be great, I will have finished my undergrad in a couple of months and from day one was the best in everything I've put my mind to. I don't see that changing, so tim if you think you can do it, there is nothing stopping you.

There are different types of dreams and ambition. Wanting to be the best at what you do is one thing. Wanting to win the Nobel prize and all that fame is another. These are two different things.

Trying to be the best at what you do is something that YOU can control. When you love something, you tend to want to do that often, and you'd what to do that as well as you can. Wanting to be successful at that is a perfectly legitimate and achievable ambition.

On the other hand, having a goal at winning some prizes or being the person to "discover" something are, to me, pies in the sky. Why? Because these are things that you have no control over and something that depends on luck, timing, and the opinion of others. No matter how good you are, you will not win any prize or any recognition unless your work is of considerable importance, it received the publicity, and others think it and deserve to be recognized. You want to win the Nobel Prize? Well maybe you were the 4th person on that short-list to have contributed something to that particular discovery and had to be left out of the award because they only give it a maximum of 3 people per year for that Physics Nobel prize! Or what if you discovered something that is important, did get a lot of publicity, but unfortunately, it would have gotten the nobel prize of it had been discovered some 10 years earlier? ALL of these HAVE occured!

An "award" requires the involvement of OTHER people, your peers, to recognize you and your work. This is something that you have no control over. You also have no control over Mother Nature, which is a lot more formidable than all of us put together. You just cannot dial in your effort, no matter how hard you work, and demand that Mother Nature gives you a discovery. If not, we'd have gotten Cold Fusion already by now. Things just do not work this way. The best that you can do is be extremely well-prepared to do good work, and when something significant happens, you are there for it to record it. All that you can do is increase your chances that these will happen to you by working with excellent people, working at a world-class facility and institution, etc., but it is certainly something that you can never predict.

Focus on the work. That is what you can control and that should be your main ambition. The rest and the accolades should be considered as a bonus and should never be considered as the end in itself. That is the wrong reason to get into this field. Dreaming of such thing when one is a child, sure! But considering the level of where we are right now, and the level of where the OP is at, reality needs to kick in really soon at this point.

Zz.

 

[J77]

Also, I don't think you have to be the "best" physicist in the world to win the Nobel prize.

I'm not an experimentalist, but to me it looks like some people win because they're in the right lab at the right time - I know they've wokred hard to get there but I doubt they would be naive enough to class themselves as the "best", just because they have a Nobel prize.

 

[ZapperZ]

Also, I don't think you have to be the "best" physicist in the world to win the Nobel prize.

I'm not an experimentalist, but to me it looks like some people win because they're in the right lab at the right time - I know they've wokred hard to get there but I doubt they would be naive enough to class themselves as the "best", just because they have a Nobel prize.

I have never heard of any physicists calling someone as the "best" physicist, etc.. etc. This is a meaningless designation, and physicists by nature prefer to talk about something that's well defined. By the time we become practicing physicists, there are many of us who work in different areas and have different expertise. There is no way one can compare the ability of one person working in such and such a field versus another. Is Frank Wilczek better than Bob Laughlin or Phil Anderson? They are all theorists, and Nobel laureates.

So this idea of being the "best physicist" in the world is a myth. It certainly is a non-issue among physicists, just like the "wave-particle duality".

Zz.

 

[J77]

So this idea of being the "best physicist" in the world is a myth. It certainly is a non-issue among physicists, just like the "wave-particle duality".

Zz.

Yeah - that's why I stuck it in inverted commas

 

[genxhis]

It isn't such a bad idea to imagine your a great physicist, at least once in a while. It boosts your self-confidence and makes you feel better. But realizing your not so spectacular isn't such a bad thing either; certainly, it taught me some humility.

For the most part though, I like to think of the whole physics community as one unit. Every one, even the great ones, are "standing on the shoulders of giants." (Newton's line if you haven't heard it.)

 

[mathwonk]

Zapper is right on. Go with what you love. American idol is an absurd comparison for academia. Academic life is the opposite: to be happy one has to be content helping people, and advancing the subject you work in, in a way that will probably never bring any recognition, or even compensation remotely commensurate with your effort and ability.

American idol is perversely entertaining precisely for those persons who hope to hit the jackpot with a modicum of ability and even less effort. Don't be one of them.