PETA activist group or whacko brainwashing cult?

[Moonbear]

Good heavens, hypatia! I have been a PETA supporter in the past but I have never seen anything like that. Makes me wonder if they've gone off the deep end. I always kept them very distinct in my mind from groups like ALF, but maybe there is more cross-over than I thought.

I didn't look at that tax return hypatia linked to earlier in the thread, but I'm pretty sure it's probably the one that is circulated because it shows somewhere on there a donation to ALF.

I've never seen such a thing distributed by PETA before either. Hypatia, are you sure that's legit and not a spoof? That seems extreme even for them. Even though there are quotes from the founders that show they sympathize with groups such as ALF, they tend to play it cool under the PETA organization's name.

 

[Pengwuino]

I've never seen such a thing distributed by PETA before either. Hypatia, are you sure that's legit and not a spoof? That seems extreme even for them. Even though there are quotes from the founders that show they sympathize with groups such as ALF, they tend to play it cool under the PETA organization's name.

Im sure he meant it as a spoof... or at least i hope he did haha

 

[James R]

Pengwuino:

Thats the problem with most animal "rights" activists. They think people gather up little kittens and rabbits and start hacking at them with knives and chainsaws and wear the fur.

Now you're attempting to stereotype animal rights activists.

Why not try facing the issues, rather than making ad hominem attacks?

Killing pet animals is beside the point. The systematic killing of animals for food is the issue here. The battle over the ill treatment of pets is at least partly in the public eye. People don't like the idea that their pet cat Fluffy may come to harm. But a cow they never see from their city apartment? No worries.

My godfather is a foremen at a dairy and when they kill the cows, its quick and painless (.22 to the head from rather close range). Some might see this as so cruel and blah blah blah... but if i was going to die, id want it quick and wouldn't want to see it coming. Whats the alternative?

Er... not killing them. Rather obvious, isn't it?

 

[Pengwuino]

You've done your own stereotyping as well... now let's see your response to the rest of my posts... let's see if you are a hypocrit (although you already alluded to the fact that you are).

 

[James R]

Pengwuino:

You really should think about the knee-jerk responses you're giving, just a little.

We do but groups like PETA demand this front page news and demand only their voice be heard in schools and on the news and such. I mean look at how much we have gone through to better the life of animals that are soon to be used for food compared to how far we have gone into helping say, poverty.

Do you know how much or how little has been done to better the lives of animals? I doubt it. I get the impression you're speaking from a position of almost no knowledge.

Ever been eaten by a shark or a crocadile? Well, once you have been, then you can tell me that its unjustifiable to eat an animal. PS, this is rhetorical.

How many people are eaten by sharks and crocodiles each year? Now many crocodiles and sharks are eaten by people each year? Want to compare?

And, while we're at it, how many people are eaten by cows each year, do you think?

 

[Pengwuino]

Awww you dodged my question! Now I am sad. Do YOU know what's been done in the US for animals?

And you also missed the point. Animals are very much willing to kill people for food. They are even more willing to kill each other for food. Sounds like its only human to do what every other animal does.

And again, why do you think we should eat vegetables instead?

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear:



Here's the other side of that argument: Suppose you kill a cow to eat. For every pound of meat you get from the cow, the cow had to eat maybe 10 pounds of grass or other feed. If you ate the feed yourself, instead of second-hand, you'd SAVE cropland.

Have you looked into that?



Sorry, but my first impression is that this is just wrong. At the moment, we give over large areas of land for grazing of out meat animals. Those areas COULD be used for crops, and more efficiently.

At least you're trying to mount an argument, though, instead of giving the normal defensive response.

You're wrong on both accounts. In the first case, cattle, and other ruminants, can digest more of the plant than we can, thus they are far more efficient at digesting that food, and in turn, we are more efficient at digesting the animal meat than the plant matter. For example, take a cornfield. What can we eat? Just the kernels of corn off the cob, the rest is waste. What can a cow eat? Everything, the stem, the cob, the leaves, no waste.

On the second account, animals can graze on land that crops cannot be grown on. Steep and rocky mountainsides, for example. With responsible range management, the rangeland is not damaged and native species are not killed off (just kept pruned, as they would be by any natural grazing species, such as deer). Contrast that with the need to plow up the land to plant crops. You dig up all the native species of plants, displace many native animals, and kill a bunch more, and replace all that biodiversity with a single crop species.

Now, I did say you need responsible range management when it comes to domestic animals, and that is a bit of a catch. But, if all the effort that was spent on animal rights was instead spent on protecting rangeland and ensuring ranchers did not permit their animals to overgraze, you'd save a lot more animals.

Of course we can't subsist on meat alone and do need some vegetables, but we currently can grow crops where we get the part of the crop that are edible to us and feed the rest that is inedible to us to the cattle or other ruminants. Hog farming is the one practice that may not provide us with much benefit, although, there has been increasing effort to use our food waste as hog feed; for example, think of how much food gets thrown away at school cafeterias every day. If it can be treated in a way that it isn't going to carry bacteria (such as cooking it again) while still retaining the nutrients, pigs basically can eat on our kitchen and table scraps. This is not yet ideal though, so hog farming remains controversial. Ruminants, such as cattle, sheep and goats, though, are much more efficient than for us to try eating plants only, and if we're going to destroy land to plant crops, we better make the most efficient use of it possible, which includes feeding the parts that are inedible to us to animals that are edible to us.

 

[hypatia]

http://www.furisdead.com/feat-momfur.asp

its a PETA sponsored site

 

[James R]

Pengwuino:

Awww you dodged my question! Now I am sad. Do YOU know what's been done in the US for animals?

Yes. You have an SPCA which concerns itself with some animal welfare issues. But there are still many many factory farms and battery chicken farms where animals are treated with great cruelty solely for the purpose of meat production. You can read about some of these practices on the PETA web site. Go take a look.

Animals are very much willing to kill people for food. They are even more willing to kill each other for food. Sounds like its only human to do what every other animal does.

Do animals factory farm each other? Or do they take only what they need?

Some animals, it can be argued, have to eat meat. Do humans have to eat meat?

What is the moral justification for killing animals? After all, humans are supposed to be moral creatures, aren't they? Or is it "might is right" - we do it because we can, and therefore it is right?

And again, why do you think we should eat vegetables instead?

Because animals are conscious beings which can feel pain and which probably have some expectation of a future life. In contrast, there is no evidence that vegetables possesses these qualities.

Come on, put in a little effort. You should be able to think of some of these things yourself. They are simple arguments.

You still haven't given me your argument FOR killing animals. Do you intend to, or are you going to avoid the issue?

 

[James R]

Moonbear:

I can't really refute what you're saying. I'd need to research the issues in much more depth than I have. So, let's assume you are right about efficiency considerations regarding the use of land etc.

The next set of issues to confront are the moral ones. Even assuming that it is more efficient to eat animals than plants, does that make it right?

Do you have a moral justification for meat eating?

 

[ron damon]

Whatever. I can't solve the food dilemma in the short term. So what? There are plenty of instances where animals are abused and tortured for absolutely no valid reason. Organizations like PETA draw attention to the oft-forgotten fact that making living beings suffer for our superficial and idiotic purposes (fashion, sport) is immoral.

Hundreds years ago a popular entertainment for kings involved throwing cats in a big sack, sealing it, and then setting them on fire. The poor animals' howls from being burnt alive were found irresistibly funny by the royalty.

500 years from now people will turn their heads in disgust at our practice of sustaining ourselves on dead animals' carcasses...

 

[Pengwuino]

haha, for 1, give me a reputable source about the "cruelty" animals face. You might as well tell me to research the middle eastern conflict by talking to a suicide bomber right before he sets it off.

Also, animals don't factory farm each other but as usual, your missing the reality of the situation. Very few people can just drive out after getting their starbucks coffee and pounce on a bear and kill him. Thus, we have to use factory farming. Your also switching your argument again. First it was "you can't kill animals period!" and now its "well... its wrong to kill them like a factory!". And what does eating to survive have to do with morality? We need to live, they are food, 1+1=2. Very few people buy $400 worth of meat, eat 2 hamburgers from it, and throw the rest away.

Also, where is your proof that animals are conscious and have any expectations of future life and what proof do you have that plants do not possesses these qualities. Plants live, need food, grow, develop, reproduce, etc very much like animals. Sounds like your being hypocritical and simply resorting to insults instead of putting forth real arguments. And although I've said it about 4 times, ill say it again, you kill animals to eat. Humans must eat. If an animal had the chance, it would eat you too. No squirrels are protesting for better treatement of humans. No group of sharks have ever jailed another shark for eating a human.

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear:

I can't really refute what you're saying. I'd need to research the issues in much more depth than I have. So, let's assume you are right about efficiency considerations regarding the use of land etc.

The next set of issues to confront are the moral ones. Even assuming that it is more efficient to eat animals than plants, does that make it right?

Do you have a moral justification for meat eating?

You'd have to show me that it's universally immoral, and not just a cultural/religious view of morality that prevents me from eating meat. As I've presented already, if your major concern is killing of animals, then less animals are killed by eating meat than by maintaining a strictly vegetarian diet for everyone (a few vegetarians here and there aren't going to throw off the balance, so if you are vegetarian, I am not going to worry over it and tell you to change your lifestyle, only that you should consider that those of us who consume meat are not doing any worse). So, if the ultimate goal is to minimize the number of animals killed for our benefit, then the way to achieve that is by a mixed diet of vegetables and meat, and it seems it would be immoral to NOT eat meat if the result of that is to kill many more animals than by choosing to eat meat.

Of course the biggest problem we have, no matter how you slice it, is that there are too many people to have any form of agriculture that does not in some way harm the environment. We can no longer survive on subsistence agriculture or through hunting/fishing/gathering nuts and berries (which given our population size would decimate those food sources as well), etc. We have to have agriculture that involves domesticated crops and animals (and yes, those crops are domesticated as well...they in no way resemble the wild species they originated from) to sustain human populations.

 

[ron damon]

where is your proof that animals are conscious and have any expectations of future life

I lived with a cockatiel for many years, and am a reasonably intelligent person. Animals are conscious in the same fundamental way you or me are. No doubt about it.

No squirrels are protesting for better treatement of humans. No group of sharks have ever jailed another shark for eating a human.

Animals, the whole planet, is under our stewardship. We are the man in charge. Either we start giving a sh*t, or the mess we're heading to will do away with us.

 

[Pengwuino]

So your scientific proof is personal experience? Well then i guess aliens exist and psychics are omnipotent beings!

And what is this "mess" we're heading to?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sounds to me like you're a bit defensive about your meat eating ways.

I don't like irrational arguements. I'm simply trying to point out the hole in your logic. You may not think that I am putting up an argument but I like to point out the logical inconsistancies that I see in someone elses arguements before I proceed with my own point of view. Perhaps you can satisfy me of your logic or maybe not.

The argument is more subtle than that. It is not based on a heirarchical ranking of life forms.

I agree that there is complexity in the issue. I'd like to know the subtleties of your argument please.

Why not start by asking: "Can this thing I'm killing to eat feel pain?"

Pain is a defense mechanism. Plants have defense mechanisms too. So should anything that tries to keep itself from being killed in any fashion be considered immoral to kill? And (as another subject to add) what do you think about insects? Do you have any particular problem with the killing of insects?

Tell me: how do you personally JUSTIFY killing animals for food?

It's the natural order of things. As Moonbear has already pointed out we are part of an ecosystem and hold an important place in it. The way that this ecosystem has evolved naturally has made us omnivores.
Now tell me why you believe that our position in the ecosystem is to protect these animals from death even though it is the natural order of things that has made us omnivores and has lead us to be what we are today?

 

[Bladibla]

Moonbear:

I can't really refute what you're saying. I'd need to research the issues in much more depth than I have. So, let's assume you are right about efficiency considerations regarding the use of land etc.

The next set of issues to confront are the moral ones. Even assuming that it is more efficient to eat animals than plants, does that make it right?

Do you have a moral justification for meat eating?

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
Maybe you should question PETAs OWN moral justification. Unless you can reasonably account for your own moral views, us (me) meat eaters don't need jack justification for our views.

PETA need to be purged from this earth.

 

[juvenal]

Yeah - I think that one could arguably make a distinction between clearing land for raising crops, thereby reducing a wild animal population, vs specifically raising animals for food.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm very sympathetic to the vegetarian/animal rights point-of-view. I do find that the animal rights types make very convincing and compelling morality-based arguments. Dominion by Matthew Scully is a good book for that. Read any number of reviews (starting with Amazon) for some summaries of them.

Why am I not a vegetarian? Probably of combination of cowardice, hypocrisy, and being a somewhat amoral son-of-a-*****.

 

[Smasherman]

I don't rant unless provoked (Grrr!).

Oddly enough, a thread on meat eating is how I found PF.

I know nothing of PETA except that it's well-known (ie, I've heard the name before), but this thread has switched to animal rights and killing animals, so I'll talk about those. I'm vegan, and there really are a lot of reasons not to eat meat.

Instead of writing down all my reasons for not eating animals, I'm going to summarize and cite sources.

1) Sentient beings shouldn't be treated harshly simply for the enjoyment of other sentient beings.

2) Meat, milk, etc are unhealthy for humans.

3) Producing meat cheaply (in money) hurts the environment.

It's my opinion that people shouldn't eat any animal products except under dire circumstances (if I was on Wolram's island, I'd eat a boar if I had to).

Many famous people are (or were at death) at least vegetarian, including Buddha, Socrates, Leonardo da Vinci, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, Plato, Pythagoras, Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, and Mohandas Gandhi.

Buddha:

"May all that live be delivered from suffering. All beings tremble before violence, all fear death, all love life. See yourself in others; then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? The eating of meat extinguishes the seed of compassion. To become a vegetarian is to step into the stream that leads to nirvana."

Sources:

This site pretty much has everything, including sources.
http://www.vegsource.com/

The movie Eating convinced me to turn to a Vegan diet. I researched afterwards to confirm the truth of what they said (though the exact numbers are debated).

The most authoritative publication to date is The China Study by T.Colin Campbell, PhD. The China Study shows that the more animal protein Chinese villages consume, the higher the cancer rates are.

Another site.
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/

So, even if you don't care about animals, becoming vegetarian or vegan is still a good idea. If you care about people, anyway.

Also, I really don't bother meat-eaters unless they bother me first. I do present my views during debates, however (I know, self-evident).

 

[Pengwuino]

Smasherman, your going to need to provide serious proof of those claims by reputable (non-biased) sources. There are many people here who know exactly what there talking about and "meat is unhealthy for humans" is probably going ot raise a lot of red flags.

As for the topic at large with PETA, those who say they have done nothing to change the industry need not look farther then a reuters release from today.

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/reuters07-12-050022.asp?t=renew&vts=71220050842

Their tactics are of course, disgusting and violent and their "Don't mess with us. We will win" sounds very Hitler-esk but they are getting the job done.

Furthermore, as for eating living vegetables as opposed to "unhealthy" meat, my uncle is a fabulous example of why people should eat meat. I know its dumb to put in personal examples but meh, take it with a grain of salt. He use to be in the army stationed on the North Korean DMZ. Crackshot, big ol meat eating army dude! Somewhere along the line he stopped eating meat and now he can barely lift a rifle at roughly 50 years old. He also looks sickly but he doesn't have anything yet.

 

[totallyclueless]

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings or made anyone mad. I'm stupid. sorry

 

[totallyclueless]

I don't mean to insinuate, but it sounds like you took everything your dad said for granted and didn't even consider any alternatives.

That's actually totally untrue. I was actually really mad at m dad when he came in and told me what he thought about PETA. I thought he was being not open-minded and stuff, but then I actually did a google search on PETA and I found one forum (don't know what it was) where people were talking about PETA in a bad way. I looked at both sides...

 

[Smasherman]

Many of the people involved in VegSource are unbiased. You should go to VegSource and read some of what they say. For one, T.Colin Campbell grew up on a dairy farm. He wrote his thesis on how to produce beef cheaply and efficiently. I admit that some are biased, but there are many scientists, doctors, and nutritionists who advocate a meatless diet. Also, I'd like some pro-meat eating sources. I haven't been able to find any except Lindsay Allen's.

Your link doesn't work.

Your uncle is an anecdotal case.

Also, those were a summary of my argument. They were meant to provoke a response so people will look into my sources.

Lindsay Allen's study:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/11/3941S
Basically, she gave malnourished children food and they became healthier.

 

[hypatia]

I think you need to change your name here..to hasaclue

 

[TOKAMAK]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

Darn. You beat me to it. That was the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread.

 

[Smasherman]

http://maddox.xmission.com/
This website is actually kinda funny. It's the homepage for http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

Guiltless grill has a point, but it's flimsy. Less fields would need to be harvested to feed people if the meat industry was considerably smaller, resulting in less death. The Least Harm Principle only works if all meat was produced via grazing, which it isn't.

 

[James R]

It is always interesting to watch the tactics and the length meat-eaters go to to try to defend their practices. The thing is: we all believe we are good people. And if you eat meat and you're a good person, it can't be that you're doing something immoral, could it? So meat-eating must be ok. Extend that a little, and you feel justified in saying all vegetarians are crazy people, who ideally should be ostracized from polite society. There's enough material for a psychology thesis in these kinds of attitudes.


Pengwuino:

From your posts, I can only conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about. You just want to defend your own lifestyle, and you aren't particularly concerned about getting to the truth or looking at the other point of view. It's your view, so it must be good and right - that's all there is to it.

haha, for 1, give me a reputable source about the "cruelty" animals face.

A brief web search will find you many reputable sources. Pretending animal cruelty doesn't exist is a juvenile response.

Very few people can just drive out after getting their starbucks coffee and pounce on a bear and kill him. Thus, we have to use factory farming.

There are other farming methods. Maybe you should take a minute to find out about them.

Your also switching your argument again. First it was "you can't kill animals period!" and now its "well... its wrong to kill them like a factory!".

The former view is an animal rights view. That is a later step in a moral progression. The first step is to consider animal welfare. If you insist on killing animals, the least you can do is to do so humanely. Factory farming is not humane, as you will see if you look into it at the most superficial level.

And what does eating to survive have to do with morality? We need to live, they are food, 1+1=2.

There are other types of food available. Humans don't NEED to eat meat.

Also, where is your proof that animals are conscious and have any expectations of future life and what proof do you have that plants do not possesses these qualities.

As a meat-eater, I imagine your diet includes BOTH plants and meat. A vegetarian eats only plants. So, even if we assume plants are conscious (which is extremely doubtful), meat eaters are still less moral than vegetarians. They are committing a DOUBLE sin, right?

Humans must eat. If an animal had the chance, it would eat you too.

Cows and sheep don't eat people. (Have you ever been to a farm? I doubt it.)

No squirrels are protesting for better treatement of humans. No group of sharks have ever jailed another shark for eating a human.

Do you think squirrels or sharks have the same moral sense as humans are capable of? Do I have to spell out the implications of that for you?

There are many people here who know exactly what there talking about and "meat is unhealthy for humans" is probably going ot raise a lot of red flags.

There seems to be an increased risk of heart disease, for one thing, from eating meat. There are many reputable sites on the web which will inform you about other health links.

my uncle ... stopped eating meat and now he can barely lift a rifle at roughly 50 years old. He also looks sickly but he doesn't have anything yet.

Sounds like your uncle might need a more healthy diet, which is quite possible without eating meat. Or, he could have other health problems, unrelated to diet. Have you considered that?

 

[James R]

Moonbear:

You'd have to show me that it's universally immoral, and not just a cultural/religious view of morality that prevents me from eating meat.

All you're really saying here is that YOUR moral stance is that there is nothing wrong with eating meat.

As I've presented already, if your major concern is killing of animals, then less animals are killed by eating meat than by maintaining a strictly vegetarian diet for everyone...

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this. It sounds like a comfortable rationalisation to me.

Regarding your land usage argument, by the way, did you know that there are, in fact, two sets of crops produced by farming? There are crops produced solely for human consumption. Unused parts of your corn cob, in that case, are simply thrown away, and not consumed by animals, as you claimed. Then, there is another set of crops devoted purely to growing food for animal consumption.

So, in fact, animals effectively use twice the amount of land that food crops do - one lot of land to maintain the animals themselves, and one lot of land to grow their food.

Your assertion that unused human food crops are used to feed animals seems to be wrong, based on what I have been told.

Of course the biggest problem we have, no matter how you slice it, is that there are too many people to have any form of agriculture that does not in some way harm the environment.

I'm not so sure about that, either. I don't think we're anywhere near the carrying capacity of our planet yet. If we had more efficient farming everywhere, we could easily feed all the human beings on Earth and STILL protect the environment for animals and other life.

 

[James R]

TheStatutoryApe:

I don't like irrational arguements. I'm simply trying to point out the hole in your logic.

You haven't pointed out any logical problems with anything I've said so far.

Pain is a defense mechanism. Plants have defense mechanisms too. So should anything that tries to keep itself from being killed in any fashion be considered immoral to kill? And (as another subject to add) what do you think about insects? Do you have any particular problem with the killing of insects?

The moral line that most people draw is to ask whether a living thing is conscious of its existence, and whether it can and does take steps to protect its own existence. Does a living thing have any expectation that its life will continue? And can it suffer?

This discussion of plant sentience and so on is a common tactic used to try to deflect this kind of conversation onto safer ground - to turn it from a concrete discussion over things which most people have little doubt about, into a philosophical debate which cannot be resolved in any useful way.

Do you have any pets (e.g. cat or dog)? If so, compare.

Do you think your dog (for example) is conscious of its existence?
Would your dog try to avoid being killed, in a conscious way?
Do you think your dog has a reasonable expectation that its life will continue, until it ends naturally?
Can your dog suffer in a similar way that you can suffer?

Now, ask the same questions for a petunia growing in your garden.

See how silly this argument is? The answers are obvious.

It's the natural order of things. As Moonbear has already pointed out we are part of an ecosystem and hold an important place in it. The way that this ecosystem has evolved naturally has made us omnivores. Now tell me why you believe that our position in the ecosystem is to protect these animals from death even though it is the natural order of things that has made us omnivores and has lead us to be what we are today?

You are committing what is called the "naturalistic fallacy" here. That is, you assume that what is natural is morally good.

Humans (most of them, anyway) have a moral sense, which an insect, and even a dog, may not have. We can CHOOSE what we do with the ecosystem, in ways that dogs cannot. And our choices ought to be moral choices.

We take moral stances in many aspects of our lives. So why should our choice of food consumption be any different? Do you really believe there is NO moral issue to be considered in eating an animal? Or is it that you think eating an animal can be justified on moral grounds? If so, how?

Time to face up to your own beliefs, rather than trying to take the discussion off on a tangent.

 

[James R]

Bladibla:

Maybe you should question PETAs OWN moral justification. Unless you can reasonably account for your own moral views, us (me) meat eaters don't need jack justification for our views.

So, you won't be moral until you're convinced that everybody else is moral first?

What an interesting point of view. And so convenient for you.

 

[Moonbear]

All you're really saying here is that YOUR moral stance is that there is nothing wrong with eating meat.

That's my moral stance, yes.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this. It sounds like a comfortable rationalisation to me.

Regarding your land usage argument, by the way, did you know that there are, in fact, two sets of crops produced by farming? There are crops produced solely for human consumption. Unused parts of your corn cob, in that case, are simply thrown away, and not consumed by animals, as you claimed. Then, there is another set of crops devoted purely to growing food for animal consumption.

So, in fact, animals effectively use twice the amount of land that food crops do - one lot of land to maintain the animals themselves, and one lot of land to grow their food.

Your assertion that unused human food crops are used to feed animals seems to be wrong, based on what I have been told.

Told by whom? Otherwise, it just sounds like a convenient rationalization to ignore the wild animals that are killed in the process of making your vegetarian diet. Even if it were true, which it isn't, that would suggest EVEN MORE land is wasted by vegetarians since it's the majority of the plant material produced for the human crops that goes to waste. ALL of the crop can be used to feed animals.
Edit: What isn't true is that the waste from human crops aren't used for animals. There are crops planted for non-human animal consumption, as was mentioned earlier in the thread; but they still remain more efficient than growing crops ONLY for human consumption. Take a look here:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/extensionnews/2001/IntensiveCornSoybeanAgriculture.html

2. Environmental factors have become more prominent in recent years when determining the sustainability of crop production systems. In my travels throughout south central and southeastern Minnesota, I've never seen as much erosion as in the last few years. We've had some intense rains, but we've also converted the landscape to a crop production system (corn and soybeans) that is extremely susceptible to soil erosion.

We must question the sustainability of the corn-soybean rotation from an environmental perspective. This is due to more soil erosion, greater and more "flash flood" runoff water compared to cropping systems containing alfalfa and grass perennials, and more loss of nitrate-nitrogen to ground and surface waters.

3. Ecological factors must be considered when evaluating sustainability. More and diverse plant and wildlife is considered highly favorable in a rural ecosystem and presents an aesthetically pleasing quality, which is gaining value in American society. But the current corn-soybean cropping system provides little opportunity for animal and plant diversity on the landscape.

Transportation of corn and soybeans to New Orleans for overseas shipment is another ecological challenge. The judicial branch recently denied attempts by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to reconstruct the lock and dam system to better accommodate barge traffic for grain shipment. My guess is that corn and soybean agriculture will not win this ecological debate.

Bold emphasis is mine - those alfalfa and grass perennials are the animal feed (hay) you're worried about. Apparently it's better for the soil than corn and soybeans.

I'm not so sure about that, either. I don't think we're anywhere near the carrying capacity of our planet yet. If we had more efficient farming everywhere, we could easily feed all the human beings on Earth and STILL protect the environment for animals and other life.

As I said before, you really need to look up more information on things like habitat loss and biodiversity loss. More efficient farming means factory farms, if you'd like those. We can also achieve more efficient farming through GM crops, but oddly enough, the same people who argue for vegetarian diets are usually the ones fighting against GM crops.

As I also mentioned already, I also have posted sources in a previous discussion of this issue.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=570340&postcount=42

 

[James R]

Moonbear:

Told by whom?

Told by somebody who knows more about these things than I do.

Even if it were true, which it isn't, that would suggest EVEN MORE land is wasted by vegetarians since it's the majority of the plant material produced for the human crops that goes to waste. ALL of the crop can be used to feed animals.

You have 3 fields. You use 1 to grow food for human consumption, 1 to grow food for your animals, and 1 to house the animals. Compare: You use all three to grow food for human consumption.

Which is more efficient, bearing in mind that 10 tonnes of animal food produces 1 tonne of meat (or something like that)?

As I said before, you really need to look up more information on things like habitat loss and biodiversity loss.

I have quite a good understanding of that already, thanks.

More efficient farming means factory farms, if you'd like those.

Not necessarily. Personally, I believe that animal welfare issues need to be weighed up against purely economic and "efficiency" considerations, obviously. Part of my point here, and PETA's too, is that CURRENT animal farming practices are often cruel and unnecessary. The vegetarian or not argument is a separate issue.

We can also achieve more efficient farming through GM crops, but oddly enough, the same people who argue for vegetarian diets are usually the ones fighting against GM crops.

I'm on the fence regarding GM crops right now, and admit I don't know enough about them to make a judgment either way yet.

As I also mentioned already, I also have posted sources in a previous discussion of this issue.

Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

 

[hypatia]

My grandparents bought product refuse from Campbels corp{as did many of the neighbor farms} to feed the pigs and chickens.
Plus if we allow the animal pop. to multiply, we would need much more grazing land then there is available.
Everything I eat was once living, including the veggies. I have 20 teeth in my mouth that confirm, I am a meat eater.

 

[Moonbear]

Here's more from the U of Minnesota Extension office:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/extensionnews/2000/TestLivestockManureForNutrients.html

Test livestock manure for nutrients to maximize fertilizer savings

With fertilizer prices on the rise, making the most of the the nutrients in livestock manure can provide a sizable payoff. Testing the manure for nutrient content is a key to maximizing that payoff, says Chuck Schwartau, Goodhue County educator with the University of Minnesota Extension Service.

So, those domestic animals are being used to provide fertilizer for your crops too.

Oh, and you know in those years when the weather conditions ruin crops intended for human consumption? Guess what they can still be used for? Yep, animal feed.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/extensionnews/2001/CornSoybeansForSilage.html

Corn, soybeans for silage offer late planting option

Corn and soybean producers who haven't been able to get crops planted because of all the rain this spring may want to consider planting for silage. This may be a good option for farmers who can feed or sell the forage, says agronomist Denise McWilliams of the University of Minnesota Extension Service.

For corn, a hybrid selected for normal grain maturity is generally the best choice for silage, green chop or grazing, says McWilliams. Silage hybrids are usually five days later in maturity than hybrids grown for grain. The best time to harvest corn for silage is when the grain is in the late dough stage, McWilliams points out.

Since it doesn't matter as much for animal feed if the crops are grown in suboptimal conditions such that they are stunted or the fruits imperfect, a late crop after the human food crop is harvested can be planted in the same field as the crops for human consumption.

 

[Moonbear]

You have 3 fields. You use 1 to grow food for human consumption, 1 to grow food for your animals, and 1 to house the animals. Compare: You use all three to grow food for human consumption.

Which is more efficient, bearing in mind that 10 tonnes of animal food produces 1 tonne of meat (or something like that)?

The most efficient would be planting two fields with animal feed and using the third for livestock. The reason, as I have presented repeatedly, is that humans only use a small percentage of the plant, and we are more efficient at using the proteins in meat than in vegetables.

And most farms nowadays are specialized. They either grow crops or raise animals. Some raise animals + animal feed, but it's very rare to find people doing all three anymore.