What caused the teenager to die while charging her phone in the bath?

In summary: Anyway, as you say above, the point is moot until we know the...In summary, a teenage girl died charging her phone in a bathtub, possibly because the charger she was using lacked a class Y capacitor.
  • #71
Victor Ray Rutledge said:
Being a resident of Texas, I can verify the following. First, not all bathroom outlets have GFCI, in spite of regulations to the contrary.
Note that some may have GFCI and not realize it. My house has an odd "house GFCI" circuit, which appears to be based on one GFCI receptacle in the garage wired in series with the rest of the "wet" receptacles (3 bathrooms, 2 outside).
 
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  • #72
russ_watters said:
Note that some may have GFCI and not realize it. My house has an odd "house GFCI" circuit, which appears to be based on one GFCI receptacle in the garage wired in series with the rest of the "wet" receptacles (3 bathrooms, 2 outside).
Yep. I have one in the bathroom that's also wired to an outside receptacle.
 
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  • #73
Just to confirm some points regarding UK & european bathroom fittings. In the UK there are no wall mounted switches allowed, the only switch approved for bathrooms is a ceiling mounted switch operated by a cord hanging down from it to operate the light. There are some wet area approved ceiling heaters using radiant or infra red heating, again only operable using a pull cord. The only normal wall switch used in a bathroom is for an immersion heater but that switch is located inside the cupboard covering the hot water tank so not exposed to water. Also sockets in UK are really protected as the + & - connectors are covered until the Earth Connector is inserted then the other terminals are then open to receive the plus and minus pins.

In Europe, 220v wall sockets and light switches are used in bathrooms but sockets have to be at least 50cm away from any water source.

In Germany it is mandatory for all new houses (and older ones which get rewired ) to fit a so-called F1 trip switch ( Residual Current Circuit Breaker ) for all circuits in wet rooms.
 
  • #74
russ_watters said:
Note that some may have GFCI and not realize it. My house has an odd "house GFCI" circuit, which appears to be based on one GFCI receptacle in the garage wired in series with the rest of the "wet" receptacles (3 bathrooms, 2 outside).
This is very common. I don't like it but many contractors get by with it.
 
  • #75
Guineafowl said:
...
Mention using an electric heater on a cord into a bathroom and most here would give a little intake of breath (you know, the 'experts' propping up the bar). You may have rigged it fairly safely but there's always that little mental flag. If it's OK to use mains in the bathroom then why do you never see a socket in there?
...
I've had an oil filled portable heater in my bathroom for 28 years*. Never had a problem.
Of course, it's plugged into my GFCI outlet, which is directly above it.
I also have a handheld hair dryer hanging above the heater, which I think I've used about 5 times in those 28 years. [It may have been from a "long-hair" phase during my youth]

*My house is heated with baseboard heaters, and there wasn't one in the bathroom, so it was always the coldest room in the house, which didn't really make sense, since it was the only room where I had to get wet whilst totally naked, which was NOT very comfortable, to say the least. Beings that it was centrally located in my house, with rooms all around, the electric oil heater could be used to heat the room during the night to a comfortable 75°F, while the rest of the house stayed at a semi-comfortable 65°F. After my shower in the morning, I would turn off the heater, leave the door open, and let the moisture dissipate throughout the house. At night, before I went to bed, I would turn on the heater, and shut the door. Repeat, for 25 years, Monday through Friday.

Obligatory picture, as, it all makes sense, if you look at it:

2017.07.18.Oms.home.ventilation.layout.png
 
  • #76
@ russ_watters,

just noticed something really funny in your last post which I have highlighted in bold print!

"russ_watters said: ↑
Note that some may have GFCI and not realize it. My house has an odd "house GFCI" circuit, which appears to be based on one GFCI receptacle in the garage wired in series with the rest of the "wet" receptacles (3 bathrooms, 2 outside)".

Why do you have 2 of your bathrooms outside?
 
  • #77
@ OmCheeto,
guess you do not shower on weekends as you stated in your post

"Repeat, for 25 years, Monday through Friday".
 
  • #78
OmCheeto said:
Never had a problem

I'm sure that's true. But there's really no accounting for idiocy, and although you, a member of PF and therefore presumably someone relatively 'switched on' about electrical safety, have not had a problem, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no problem to be had.

It's almost the same fallacy as on another forum I'm a member of, for car mechanics discussions - "I've worked under the car with only the jack for support for 30 years, never had a problem".
 
  • #79
The Wizard said:
@ OmCheeto,
guess you do not shower on weekends as you stated in your post

"Repeat, for 25 years, Monday through Friday".
Correct!
But, I retired 3 years ago, and bathe now about once every two weeks. It's somewhat stinky. I would not recommend it for people with active social lives. My friends have recently learned to contact me 24 hours in advance, of "close quarters" mutual activities. ie. Sitting on a beach, where I might be upwind of them.
 
  • #80
anorlunda said:
Today's news contains photos of the frayed extension cord that electrocuted the girl.
Link? My Google-foo is failing me at the moment...
 
  • #81
Guineafowl said:
I'm sure that's true. But there's really no accounting for idiocy, and although you, a member of PF and therefore presumably someone relatively 'switched on' about electrical safety, have not had a problem, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no problem to be had.

It's almost the same fallacy as on another forum I'm a member of, for car mechanics discussions - "I've worked under the car with only the jack for support for 30 years, never had a problem".
Well, as Jim Hardy mentioned earlier about his refrigerator developing a ground fault, I'm pretty sure that old electric oil heater will be recycled the first time it trips the circuit.

ps. I've never worked under a car with only "ONE" :bugeye: jack for support. As I mentioned, I'm a former nuclear power plant technician, and know of "Black Swan" events.
hmmm... Perhaps I should add that to my signature; "Expect the unexpected."

[(off topic)1000]
pps. Did I ever tell anyone about the time I averted a reactor meltdown?
I think I was 22 years old.
Weird to think about that now.
[/(off topic)1000]
 
  • #83
The Wizard said:
@ russ_watters,

just noticed something really funny in your last post which I have highlighted in bold print!

"russ_watters said: ↑
Note that some may have GFCI and not realize it. My house has an odd "house GFCI" circuit, which appears to be based on one GFCI receptacle in the garage wired in series with the rest of the "wet" receptacles (3 bathrooms, 2 outside)".

Why do you have 2 of your bathrooms outside?
Not sure if serious, but it can be read two different ways.

That said, last year I took a buck-naked shower outside a hut on the African plains. It was glorious.
 
  • #85
The Wizard said:
Just to confirm some points regarding UK & european bathroom fittings. In the UK there are no wall mounted switches allowed, the only switch approved for bathrooms is a ceiling mounted switch operated by a cord hanging down from it to operate the light.

That's no longer correct. You can put a wall switch in a bathroom as long as it's in the right "zone" (outside zone 2 I think) and you follow the manufacturers instructions (which may preclude use in a humid area). In practice that latter requirement will prevent you using most regular wall switches but it's not a regulation thing anymore. See also..

http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=53790

There are some proximity switches that are designed to be hidden behind ceramic tiles or mirrors etc
 
  • #86
russ_watters said:
Not sure if serious, but it can be read two different ways.
I'm surprised that you can supply 3 baths and 2 outside sockets from one circuit.
I was worried about my single bathroom being overloaded.

That said, last year I took a buck-naked shower outside a hut on the African plains. It was glorious.
Ok, that's like off topic, to the infinity power...
 
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  • #87
Most of the resistance that saves you from electrocution from occasional contact with 110 or 240 V comes from dry skin. If the skin is wet the voltage required to get a lethal current is a lot lower. People have killed themselves by inserting 9V batteries into body openings. It might be that 5V is enough with a wet hand when the rest of the body is probably grounded via wet skin, water and the grounded / Earthed pipework to the bath.
 
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  • #88
CWatters said:
it makes more sense for the washing machine to go in the bathroom on the middle floor rather than in the kitchen on the ground floor.
i always wondered why aren't the washer and dryer in or adjacent the bedroom, where the laundry is generated ? That's where i change clothes & bedding, and towels are in the bathroom which is always near bedrooms. I plan to relocate my laundry close to bedroom and bath. Sigh, so many projects so little time !

dlgoff said:
Yep. I have one in the bathroom that's also wired to an outside receptacle.
That mighta made sense long ago when they were expensive. Nowadays they're under ten bucks and it's false economy.
Capacitance of long wires daisy-chaining them like that can give false trips especially when it's wet (dielectric constant of water is ~80) .
I have one GFCI in a panel that a certain electronic fluorescent ballast will trip just often enough to be a nuisance . It feeds the bathroom and the garage.
I prefer to use individual GFCI receptacles everywhere they're needed so will be replacing that breaker with a plain one. That way , for example, something in the bathroom won't kill power to the garage and defrost a freezer out there. Good explanation of how they work here...
http://www.shelfkey.com/DataSheets/937747.pdf

upload_2017-7-18_12-26-15.png


Early GFCI's were perturbed by lightning. It would trip them or fry the electronics inside . I notice new ones are way better in that regard.
Probably that MOV in upper left is a "School of Hard Knocks" late addition. I don't remember seeing it in the 1975 - ish datasheet.old jim
 
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  • #89
JohnM said:
...
People have killed themselves by inserting 9V batteries into body openings.
...
Is it just me, or are kids nowadays, kind of, weird?
 
  • #90
OmCheeto said:
pps. Did I ever tell anyone about the time I averted a reactor meltdown?
Would you have to shoot us if you did?
 
  • #91
jim hardy said:
Would you have to shoot us if you did?
Yes.
Guessing I've already told that story about 100 times. :redface:
 
  • #92
russ_watters said:
...
That said, last year I took a buck-naked shower outside a hut on the African plains. It was glorious.
Actually, this is somewhat interesting, as my friends and I have been camping for the last 25 years, and we recently got into the "solar panel + solar thermal" vs "propane + techno-battery" shower debate.

Their "propane" heated shower was light years ahead of my system, which, actually, never got put into production. [short story]
But both systems used 12 volt pumps, for the water supply.

With "solar electric" coming into vogue, should we now be worried about low voltage deaths?

I've recently found a farmer, who, with "thousands of acres", is willing to accommodate a whole bunch of "eclipse" peeps, for a very reasonable price, right where I want to be.

hmmm... anyways...

As I've said, I think this is going to be an interesting summer.
If I don't electrocute myself, I'll share the data, and "non-shower" pictures. :biggrin:
 
  • #93
Charge cables that come with phones are usually less than 3 feet long.

This would point to an extension cord since she was using the phone in the bath.
 
  • #94
HowlerMonkey said:
Charge cables that come with phones are usually less than 3 feet long.

This would point to an extension cord since she was using the phone in the bath.

Sorry - couldn't resist:

anorlunda said:
Any person jumping in now, is not likely to read the entire history of this thread
 
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  • #95
jim hardy said:
That mighta made sense long ago when they were expensive. Nowadays they're under ten bucks and it's false economy.
Capacitance of long wires daisy-chaining them like that can give false trips especially when it's wet (dielectric constant of water is ~80) .
Well, I replaced the old GFI (from 1976) with a modern one some years ago. And I replaced the outside receptacle built into the wall and changed the cover. The wire is a straight run as shown in this paint drawing. I measured an approximant distance. I've tested the GFI as okay and it's never tripped from moister; have had some really big rains. But I do understand the problems you stated. I'll rewire so to have two GFIs.
bathroom.jpg


BTW nice circuit drawing. I'm going to copy it for future reference.

Thanks for caring Jim.
 
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  • #96
Just 4 feet? That should work fine.

Myself I'd want the outdoor receptacle to be resettable from outside, but that's my OCD showing.

old jim
 
  • #97
Hang on, do I need two GFs in the bathroom, or is only one safe.
 
  • #99
With all this talk of GFCI - I'd like to remind people to actually test theirs from time to time.

I was surprised to find my outside GFCI (only a few years old) stuck in the powered state. I figure these are designed to fail "OFF" but not every failure mode can be accounted for in a consumer grade product.

I don't recall now if I tested it with a load to ground, thinking that maybe the "test" switch was bad, but I'd have replaced it anyhow since I could no longer conveniently test it. Today would be a good day to do this, while I'm thinking of it!
 
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  • #100
NTL2009 said:
With all this talk of GFCI - I'd like to remind people to actually test theirs from time to time.

I was surprised to find my outside GFCI (only a few years old) stuck in the powered state. I figure these are designed to fail "OFF" but not every failure mode can be accounted for in a consumer grade product.

I don't recall now if I tested it with a load to ground, thinking that maybe the "test" switch was bad, but I'd have replaced it anyhow since I could no longer conveniently test it. Today would be a good day to do this, while I'm thinking of it!

All our RCDs have a test button that usually switches in a low value resistor in parallel with the neutral, bypassing the sense coil. Often printed on the unit is 'Test Weekly/Monthly' or similar. How many of us bother?!
 
  • #101
NTL2009 said:
With all this talk of GFCI - I'd like to remind people to actually test theirs from time to time.

Excellent point. See those two buttons, one is RESET and the other is TEST. I don't know how the TEST button actually tests.

Ground-Fault-Circuit-Interupter-GFCI.png


Edit: I see @Guineafowl beat me to the punch.
 
  • #102
berkeman said:
Yes, I've read that she used an extension cord, but I'm not finding that news article at the moment. Looks like the parents have changed their story to claim that the phone was plugged into a bathroom outlet (which of course would have had GFCI protection).

That seems more likely, or even just water running down the USB cord to the extension cord outlet.
Older homes in the US have no GFCI protection. The home I grew up in had 2-wire outlets until recently.
 
  • #103
StandardsGuy said:
Older homes in the US have no GFCI protection. The home I grew up in had 2-wire outlets until recently.
It's odd to think about how GFCI works with a two wire system. It's almost as if the older systems were more efficiently designed, resource-wise, than the intermediate 3 wire system.

I'm speaking in the future tense of course.
 
  • #104


A timely video from ElectroBoom. The guy's a bit of a clown but does actually know what he's talking about. The video pretty much tracks the thread.

I just have to highlight the end, where he calls for American plugs to have sleeved pins, much like UK ones... ;) Yay UK!
 
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  • #105
OmCheeto said:
It's odd to think about how GFCI works with a two wire system.
I guess I can't see it that way. How can you be safer than insuring that the exact same current is on both wires? A third wire is irrelevant in this case. Last I knew it was still permitted in the USA to replace 2 wire kitchen countertop receptacles with a GFCI which would be ungrounded.
-
Edit: For that matter I believe it is permitted to do the same in a bathroom. Consider simply banning the replacement of an old two wire receptacle. Would this be safe? Extension cords throughout the house would be the result. The code has to weigh off the possibility of a probable scenario when something is mandated.
 

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