# Photons are made from gravitons

1. Jun 25, 2004

### kurious

If a spin 1 photon is made from spin 2 gravitons then when the
gravitons initially formed the photon, they must have reduced their
angular momentum.
They could do this by splitting into two spin 1 particles, one of
which helps form a photon, while the other moves off into space as a
free photon.When a photon is struck at some time by a free graviton in
space,part of the energy in the photon can have its angular momentum
increased and can leave the photon as a spin 2 particle.The free
graviton that caused the increase in the angular momentum of part of
the energy of the photon would have its own angular momentum
decreased.Angular momentum would be conserved.

2. Jun 25, 2004

### Antonio Lao

kurious,

You might have the right idea about underlying structural similarity between photon and graviton but the fact is that spin concept in quantum physics is not the same as angular momentum in classical physics. To know the subtle difference requires a complete understanding of quantum field theory. For your information, this is what my research in progress is all about. Currently, I am studying QFT by reading Steven Weinberg's book: The Quantum Theory of Fields, volume I, Foundation.

3. Jun 25, 2004

### kurious

kurious

You might have the right idea about underlying structural similarity between photon and graviton...

I think that photons redshift by emitting gravitons and this explains what general relativity cannot - where redshifted energy goes.Spin comes from the application of special relativity to quantum mechanics and is a unitless quantity and classical angular momentum has units.But I postulate that every photon and graviton are electromagnetic waves that can be formed from particle-antiparticle pairs which orbit around a common centre of mass (for some reason rest mass is present in the photon and graviton!) and have classical angular momenta.In the photon there is mass associated with the magnetic field and an equal amount of mass associated with the electric field, and the ratio of the angular momenta for the two fields will be unitless and equal to 1.In the graviton, the ratio will be equal to 2.

4. Jun 25, 2004

### Antonio Lao

The unit of spin is accepted by all quantum field theorists as $\frac{\hbar}{2}$.

Both rest masses of photon and graviton are zeros. Again, accepted by all quantum field theorists.

5. Jun 25, 2004

### kurious

Antonio Lao

Both rest masses of photon and graviton are zeros. Again, accepted by all quantum field theorists.

Kurious:
Those theorists haven't quantized gravity yet despite all their theories!

It is assumed that a photon is massless but what do we mean by mass.
Inertial mass or gravitational mass?
A photon has gravitational mass because it is deflected by the Sun.
Inertial mass is supposed to be the same as gravitational mass.
So why can't a photon have inertial mass too?
Because special relativity says that it has zero rest mass?
It seems more likely to me that special relativity has got something missing from it.
If positrons and electrons which have rest mass can become photons, why should the rest mass disappear?
When an electron is accelerated it gains relativistic mass and it should take an infinite force to get it to move at the speed of light.But what if the limiting speed of a particle can be determined by its spin.What if an electron has a permanent short-range magnetic field (that exists at constant velocityand has so far eluded experimental detection) and I changed the spin of an electron from 1/2 to 1 by changing the ratio of the electric to magnetic fields so E / Bfor an electron = 10^8 m/s.

6. Jun 25, 2004

### Antonio Lao

The name graviton means it is quantized otherwise it is called a gravity wave (a field concept).

A massless photon travels along a curved spacetime path caused by the presence of gravitational mass. The path is geodesic, a path of minimum expenditure of energy. So it is the curved path that deflect the photon and not its zero mass.

The mystery of the massless photon and graviton and gluon do beg the question for a new kind of mass. At the moment, i am calling it the kinetic mass.

7. Jun 25, 2004

### kurious

Antonio Lao:

The mystery of the massless photon and graviton and gluon do beg the question for a new kind of mass. At the moment, i am calling it the kinetic mass.

Kurious:

I think the your kinetic mass has kinetic energy because it is moving rest mass!
As I said: why should a positron and electron that have rest mass combine and lose their rest mass in a photon.I don't believe it happens.I think that the limiting speed of all masses is caused not by rest mass but by the ratio of electric field/magnetic field.But the magnetic field of a fermion must be very short range or else it would have been detected by now.

8. Jun 25, 2004

### Antonio Lao

The magnetic field of fermions are all been detected and all data tabulated. These are the magnetic dipole moments of each particle.

9. Jun 25, 2004

### Antonio Lao

$$E = m c^2$$

This equation is the reason why.

10. Jun 25, 2004

### force5

I don't want to interrupt your conversation, but I just wanted to say that I see the reverse happening. I think of photon1 + photon2 = graviton.

Just my thoughts..........stay involved.

11. Jun 25, 2004

### kurious

Originally Posted by kurious
why should a positron and electron that have rest mass combine and lose their rest mass in a photon

Antonio Lao:

This equation is the reason why.
E = mc^2

Kurious:

The equation above is only a quantitative relationship that says that a photon of a certain energy can be associated with a certain amount of mass.It does not say what the nature of the energy is.

Force5:

photon1 + photon 2 = graviton

If this is true then why isn't the Sun sending some spin 2 light to us?

12. Jun 25, 2004

### force5

Hi Kurious,

I was thinking of it a little different.

All masses radiate energy(photons). Photon1(earth) + Photon2(sun) = Graviton.

Just my thoughts.

13. Jun 26, 2004

### kurious

As a charge is accelerated by a force and increases its speed, it
increases its mass relativistically.Since the ratio of E / B determines
its speed, B could decrease as the mass increases.This B must be a very short range magnetic field which in a photon is equal in magnitude to the
usual magnetic field strength of the photon at a particular point.
To be short range the magnetic field must have very high energy and therefore it must be associated with a lot of mass.When a charge increases its mass relativistically, perhaps it gets the relativistic mass from the
short range magnetic field which gets weaker in strength with increasing speed.

Last edited: Jun 26, 2004
14. Jun 26, 2004

### Antonio Lao

Using the Lorentz force equation, charge can only be accelerated by the electric component of the force. But this electric force depends on the existence of other collective structure of many charged particles, so many in fact that all combined force from each charge merge into a continuous electric field. But if the electric field is constant, still there will be no acceleration (constant electric field is the working principle behind the production of electricity for our industrial consumption). There can be acceleration only if the time rate of change of the field is not zero. But nonzero time derivative creates an induced magnetic field. and the magnetic component of the Lorentz force comes into effect. So that the charges will now be forced to rotates around the magnetic field lines, the stronger the field, the tighter the rotation but then again a changing magnetic field produces an electric field and this will affect the original electric field. So, you see, actions and interactions is continuously going on between the E-field and M-field. The result is electromagnetic radiation such as light or radio waves or other form of waves.