Physics of Illusions: Rotating a Spring

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In summary, the conversation discusses an optical illusion in which a spring appears to be moving forward when rotated. The factors that contribute to this illusion are the perception of movement and the evolutionary interpretation of visual stimuli. While physics may underlie all other sciences, it is nearly impossible to describe complex biological processes solely in terms of basic physics. Instead, the rules and patterns at each level are condensed for easier understanding and prediction.
  • #1
rahaverhma
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Today, in the morning ,One illusion came into my observation: I rotate a spring about its axis then I saw it's helical wire was advancing in the forward direction.
I can't t understand that to describe it's motion which factors should I take ?I.e. 2 factors
1) cause: ?
2) effect: motion
 
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  • #2
Haha, the spring wire does not move forward. Your eyes go along with the thread and look at a different part of the spring every time. Put a dot mark on there and see it stays in place !
 
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  • #3
rahaverhma said:
Today, in the morning ,One illusion came into my observation: I rotate a spring about its axis then I saw it's helical wire was advancing in the forward direction.
I can't t understand that to describe it's motion which factors should I take ?I.e. 2 factors
1) cause: ?
2) effect: motion
This demonstrates the principle behind screws, propellers, drills...
 
  • #4
But my sense says I see something emanating from the end and traveling forward then what is it.?
 
  • #5
rahaverhma said:
But my sense says I see something emanating from the end and traveling forward then what is it.?

If you try out BvU's experiment, you're seeing the dot moving...

Can you please be more specific than "your sense" and "something emanating from the end?" Also please keep in mind that optical illusions are more biology than physics, and different people may perceive different illusions in a different way (remember that stupid dress picture from a few months back?)
 
  • #6
But Richard Feynman said that chemistry describes the interaction b/w substances, biology :evolution, but the subject which has nuts to describe everything in science is physics. So even that your 'biology' can be explained with the help of physics. Isn't it?

So now can you explain this phenomenon to me.
 
  • #7
Sure. What's the phenomenon ? Bearing in mind what XZ923 warned for...

Tell us: is a spring a helix like the thread on a bolt ?
If you clamp a nut in a vise, insert a bolt and turn it, then do you see the bolt advancing? And the thread stand still ?
 
  • #8
rahaverhma said:
But my sense says I see something emanating from the end and traveling forward then what is it.?
A lot of the Illusions we see are, in my opinion. explicable in terms of evolution and in terms of what we would have seen in prehistoric life and what would be important to us.
There aren't many naturally occurring rotating helices available for animals to see but striped beasts, moving slowly forward are what they might expect to see every day That is how our brains interpret it.. So the animal brain presents the consciousness with the most likely interpretation - it's evolutionally favourable. We 'see' a moving image when presented with a sequence of cine frames because that's the most reasonable interpretation in a world where they are no sequences of discrete images in the natural world. There are many more examples.
 
  • #9
rahaverhma said:
But Richard Feynman said that chemistry describes the interaction b/w substances, biology :evolution, but the subject which has nuts to describe everything in science is physics. So even that your 'biology' can be explained with the help of physics. Isn't it?

Physics certainly underlies everything in chemistry and biology, but trying to describe anything but the simplest of concepts in terms of basic physics is nearly impossible. Biological organisms are extremely complex, especially when it comes to how the nervous system takes in input information, processes it, and generates an output. It's just not possible to explain the physics of why your visual system interprets the spring as moving forward when you twist it. Even if we could, it would be such a long-winded, complicated explanation that we'd be forced to condense it, leading to chemistry and maybe to abstract models that look more like descriptions of computer systems than biology or chemistry.

The differences between physics, chemistry, and biology are simply that the rules at each level arise from more basic rules in the underlying levels that have been condensed to make things easier to model and predict. For example, the rules used in chemistry arise directly from basic electromagnetic laws that govern how charged particles interact. But trying to apply these more basic laws to 1015 particles all at once is impossible. There's just too many particles. But we know the trend or pattern when we put certain particles in certain combinations in certain amounts. These rules are much more appropriate to doing chemistry than using more basic physics rules.

The same is true for biology. Cellular biology is basically a step up from chemistry (sometimes a half-step up) and examines how cells operate. From there you not only have successive levels, but you also have different specializations that branch off at each level. Someone who studies how the visual system functions is operating on a very abstract level that may be many levels above physics and chemistry.
 
  • #10
But it isn't a beauty contest. One Science isn't more important than another. The studies are aimed at different aspects of nature.
On PF we expect to be discussing more P than other things but is P really more important than Rugby, even? Many people could give you an argument either way.
 
  • #11
rahaverhma said:
So even that your 'biology' can be explained with the help of physics. Isn't it?
No. Knowing how a component part of a system works tells you nothing about how the arrangement of the whole will operate. Solid state Physics tells you nothing about the logic of the computer program you wrote. Luckily, humans can operate in Layers, with the internal workings of Black Boxes being ignored.
I know everyone loves Richard Feynman but it cannot be true that nothing he ever said was open to question. His opinions on many things are just as fragile as yours or mine. Respect where it is due.
 
  • #12
Knowing how a component part of a system works tells you nothing about how the arrangement of the whole will operate.

Sir, as you are actually talking about the mechanisms and structure, physics (mathematics) fulfill the needs.
Mathematicians have developed the methods like Taylor's series which tells us about the adjacent parts mechanisms of a system, you just need some physical quantities.The remaining things in biology or chemistry is just same as arts, remembering (memorising) things.

Yeah I am satisfied by sir drakkith's reply more partially.
 
  • #13
Why the hell are you guys talking about perception, biology and neurology? hahaha

this is so simple. Describe a helical shape mathematically. Perform a rotation. Then a translation. Then note that these can be equivalent.This gif is for circularly polarized light, but it'll serve to demonstrate.
Circular.Polarization.Circularly.Polarized.Light_Left.Hand.Animation.305x190.255Colors.gif

If you have a rotating arrow and then you push that rotating arrow in the z-direction, you get a spring shape.

Now, you can see how a rotation is equivalent to a translation, and that's how the illusion works.
 
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  • #14
tade said:
and that's how the illusion works.
Exactly, it's an illusion which a more literal brain might not perceive as such. Hence "perception, biology and neurology" are relevant and interesting to many of us.
 
  • #15
sophiecentaur said:
Exactly, it's an illusion which a more literal brain might not perceive as such. Hence "perception, biology and neurology" are relevant and interesting to many of us.
The trick depends on the mathematical geometry, which I think that's what the OP was looking for, a "physics" approach, and also the smooth and featureless metal surface of a spring, which makes it almost indistinguishable from a magical spring that materializes at one end and evaporates at the other.
 
  • #16
tade said:
which makes it almost indistinguishable from a magical spring
Absolutely. We cannot distinguish between them because of what our minds do with the information. There is no special Physics involved and we did not evolve with rotating spirals in our look up table of effects to decode or with maths analysis. We make the best stab at it with our minds and they tell us 'horizontal motion is the most likely explanation of this confusing data'.
When such data is sub sampled (temporally) with, say movie film, the illusion can go even further and make the movement appear in the other direction (in our perception).
I guess point 2 in the OP should read " 2. effect : perception of horizontal movement"
 
  • #17
sophiecentaur said:
There is no special Physics involved and we did not evolve with rotating spirals in our look up table of effects to decode or with maths analysis.
It does involve the geometry of a spring though. The spring's unique geometry allows it to create the illusion, which other objects might not be able to.

Anyway, hope the OP comes back soon.
 
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1. How does rotating a spring create an illusion?

Rotating a spring creates an illusion because of the way our brains interpret visual information. When the spring is rotated, the individual coils seem to move in a circular motion, creating the illusion of a solid object rather than a series of individual coils. This phenomenon is known as the phi phenomenon.

2. What is the physics behind the illusion of a rotating spring?

The physics behind this illusion is related to our perception of motion. Our brains interpret the individual coils of the spring as moving in a circular motion, even though they are actually rotating around a fixed point. This is due to a combination of our brain's visual processing and the way our eyes track and perceive motion.

3. Can this illusion be explained by the principles of physics?

Yes, this illusion can be explained by the principles of physics. As mentioned before, it is a result of how our brains interpret visual information and our perception of motion. This illusion falls under the category of visual illusions, which are often studied and explained by physicists and neuroscientists.

4. Why do some people experience this illusion more strongly than others?

The strength of this illusion can vary from person to person. This is because it depends on individual differences in visual processing and perception. Some people may be more susceptible to visual illusions, while others may be able to perceive the rotating spring as individual coils more easily.

5. Are there other illusions that involve the rotation of objects?

Yes, there are many other illusions that involve the rotation of objects. One example is the rotating snake illusion, where a series of static images appear to be moving due to the way our brains process visual information. Another example is the rotating disk illusion, where a spinning disk appears to change direction when viewed through a spinning spiral pattern. Both of these illusions are also based on principles of physics and our perception of motion.

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