Physics of an automobile, suspension, and weight transfer?

In summary, the discussion focuses on the effects of suspension settings on drag racing in a rear wheel drive vehicle. While both vehicles have perfect traction, car A with a stiffer suspension setup launches with no suspension travel, while car B with a softer suspension setup has some suspension travel upon launch. This suspension travel may result in energy being diverted from the forward vector and lost, leading to lower speeds. The conversation also delves into the concepts of conservation of angular momentum and the compromises involved in finding the optimum suspension setup for a drag race launch.
  • #1
Magnus
19
0
The application is drag racing in a rear wheel drive vehicle.

The vehicle weighs approximately 3000lbs.
Traction is not an issue as both vehicles grab the ground perfectly.
The front and rear is suspended by a shock and spring in each corner.
All else is equal unless otherwise stated.

Car A launches and leaves the line completely horizontal with no suspension travel. This car has stiffer suspension setup.

Car B launches and leaves the line where the rear end squats and the front of the car raises a few inches. This car has a softer suspension setup.

Is energy diverted from the forward vector and lost in the suspension travel in car B? If so, can you please give me an explanation as to how this occurs?

I am fairly physics savvy but am having a hard time understanding how power is lost in minor suspension travel.

I understand that shocks are designed to absorbe energy (mainly from spring travel)

The way I see it, the engine turns the transmission, which turns the driveshaft, which turns the pinion, turns the differential/axles, and turns the tires. Tires just turn, and turn along the ground. They turn as fast as the engine will power them too regardless of what the suspension may do (within reason).

I understand that for the cars nose to lift, less rotation is seen in the tire, but is re-insert as the front comes down. I also understand that a car that may lift its nose will change its aerodynamics.

Please help me, I am confused. :)

This is my first post btw.

- Keith
 
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  • #2
Seems to me that any torque that contributes to lifting the front of the car is not available to turn the wheels, thus the measureable amount of energy would be used in lifting the front of the car would not be available for conversion to Kinetic Energy of motion. Thus lower speeds.

Just a gut feeling discription.
 
  • #3
Originally posted by Integral
Seems to me that any torque that contributes to lifting the front of the car is not available to turn the wheels, thus the measureable amount of energy would be used in lifting the front of the car would not be available for conversion to Kinetic Energy of motion. Thus lower speeds.
Yes I was thinking along the same lines. Putting energy toward raising the car clearly subtracts from the amount of energy used to spin the wheels.

Would it not also create a force in the opposite direction of his intended forward motion as the car jerked upwards?
 
  • #4
There's another factor that I'm thinking of: conservation of angular momentum. You know that second small blade mounted on the tail of helicopters? It's there to balance the force coming from the tendency of the helicopter body to rotate in the opposite direction to the main blade. It's the same with the car. When the wheels suddenly start to move fast the nose of the car tends to go upwards especially since its weight is mostly in the back. A part of the force needed to balance the car is covered by gravity. When you put in a very hard suspention the rest of the force needed is taken by the engine and the tension in the chasis (it can actually break). So you lose some energy there. When you put in a softer suspention the shock absorbers and the springs balance that force. So you win some energy.
So it's all a big compromise: you want more power but not more than the tires can put to the ground, you want to keep the nose down to stay aerodynamic and not to tip over or break the chasis, etc.
 
  • #5
I don't see it as torque lifting the front end, but the forward vector of the rear end of the car (axle) being greater than the down vector applied by gravity on the nose, thus being the reason the car comes up.

Sonty, are you saying you would lose more energy in stiffer suspension?

I still don't really understand how acceleration or force is lost when the rear end of the car squats for example.

f=ma... Mass is a constant.

The front of the car lifts when acceleration of the axle is greater than the down force applied by gravity of the front correct? If the suspension is stiffer, it will require a greater force for the front end to come up do to the suspension components weight being applied right away. With a softer suspension the body can come up and let the suspension hang and THEN pull up the suspensions weight.

I'm still confused.
 
  • #6
Originally posted by Magnus

Sonty, are you saying you would lose more energy in stiffer suspension?

I'm saying the optimum choice is somewhere in the middle towards the harder suspention. When you get enough speed the aerodynamic force pushing the nose down is enough to balance the car. Keeping the nose up too long you lose because of air drag.

[B}
f=ma... Mass is a constant.

The front of the car lifts when acceleration of the axle is greater than the down force applied by gravity of the front correct? If the suspension is stiffer, it will require a greater force for the front end to come up do to the suspension components weight being applied right away. With a softer suspension the body can come up and let the suspension hang and THEN pull up the suspensions weight.

[/B]

f=ma right, m=constant right, the engine gives the same force right, but where do you spend that force makes the difference.
Am talking about the back suspention, which one are you talking about?
 
  • #7
Aerodynamics isn't a concern at all. My real concern is just the launch... and how a car should launch for ideal energy savings.

I'm talking about front AND back.

The Force of the engine just rotates the tires in the end. The tires just rotate along the ground moving the vehicle forward and because the vehicle accelerates so fast in a direction, momentum kicks in and the suspended chassis wants to go backwards. Because the center of gravity is higher than the forward force vector, when the forward force vector exceeds the downard vector of the nose of the car, the front end lifts.

Regardless if the suspension is stiff or soft, if the nose comes up, or it doesnt, is the forward force vector the same?

I don't really know.. my entire post is basically a question.
 
  • #8
Originally posted by Magnus
(SNIP) Regardless if the suspension is stiff or soft, if the nose comes up, or it doesnt, is the forward force vector the same? (SNoP)

The forward force vector changes based upon the changes in the suspension, and the nose lifting.

So when a dragster takes off, the torque generated by the engine, driving the wheels, lifts the front end, resulting in a minor addition to the "co-efficients of friction" at the rear end, and a slight loss of the power, due to suspension compression.

It acts a little like a lever, hence you get a minor transfer of center of gravity, towards the rear, as the machine attempts to balance the energy lifting the front, and the traction (and slip) at the rear driving the thing forward.

Softer suspension absorbs power, but lowers the rear end resulting in a minor addition to traction due to the lever/balancing of the center of gravity.

It's all pretty well vector physics, Newtonian.

Really neat to watch the 'slo-mo' of the rear tires during the "Bleaching" process (WATER poured out onto the track, and the tires spun to smoking to heat, and clean) as you can see the displacement of the sidewalls of the tires as they are gripping at a 'tractionable surface' and then lossing that traction and 'rounding out' due to centrifugal force.
 
  • #9
Auto suspensions are very interesting. In the case of drag racers, taken to an extreme, some racers have the power to lift the front wheels completely off the ground. This does cost them time and to counter that, they may have "wheelie casters", small wheels that stickout from the the rear of the car that prevent the front from leaving the ground.

Also, not all suspension types behave the same when the engines full power is applied to them. Leaf spring rear suspensions have a tendency to be twisted by the rear axle under torgue into an "S" shape. Actually causing the rear of the car to lift up on some models. This is controlled with traction bars, bars that attatch to the spring under the axle and extend forward with a rubber snubber that hits the frame and minimizs spring twist. (some designs). Independent rear suspensions have a tendency to squat under full power launches.
 
  • #10
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
So when a dragster takes off, the torque generated by the engine, driving the wheels, lifts the front end, resulting in a minor addition to the "co-efficients of friction" at the rear end, and a slight loss of the power, due to suspension compression.

friction is increased at the rear and decreased at the front.

I don't understand how power is lost due to suspension compression though.

The front end will lift depending on how much power you have. With a softer supsnsion your chassis will lift first then the suspension will hang and carry up the wheel assemblies with it (if the front end lifts that far)..

So say you have a soft suspension and the car only lifts up 2". Its not enough to carry the wheels. Wouln't it be easier for the car to lift like this, the 2", then it would be if the suspension was stiff and thus the added weight of the wheel assemblies was too much for the car to lift at all?
 
  • #11
Originally posted by Magnus
friction is increased at the rear and decreased at the front.
If it leaves the ground, front end friction is gone/eliminated (temporarily, until it touches back down)
I don't understand how power is lost due to suspension compression though. The loss is due to the amount of energy that is required to cause the compression in the first place, as that is as a result of the cars weight tranfers caused by it's acceleration forward

The front end will lift depending on how much power you have. With a softer supsnsion your chassis will lift first then the suspension will hang and carry up the wheel assemblies with it (if the front end lifts that far).. With a soft suspension the drive wheel torque effects will cause suspension compression, prior to any lifting.

So say you have a soft suspension and the car only lifts up 2". Its not enough to carry the wheels. Wouln't it be easier for the car to lift like this, the 2", then it would be if the suspension was stiff and thus the added weight of the wheel assemblies was too much for the car to lift at all?
Sorry don't understand what you are driving at here. ("Pardon the pun" AKA PTP)
 
  • #12
The car will accelerate forward, that's a given.

If the suspension is soft enough to allow weight transfer though, where and how is drive energy being lost? That's what I don't understand.

Another example is this. You have trains of equal power on parallel tracks. Each carries a flat bed which a vehicle on it died down by the wheels. Vehicle A has solid suspension (no give) where as vehicle B has soft suspension.

The mass of the trains are equal and so is the power output of the locomotive.

If forward energy is lost due to weight transfer, then the train with the solid suspended vehicle on it would accelerate faster correct?
 
  • #13
Originally posted by Magnus
The car will accelerate forward, that's a given. OK!
If the suspension is soft enough to allow weight transfer though, where and how is drive energy being lost? That's what I don't understand. Reguardless of the suspensions compressability, weight transfers will take place, so we see that a softer suspension will absorb more of the energy because it will likely travel more.
Another example is this. You have trains of equal power on parallel tracks. Each carries a flat bed which a vehicle on it died down by the wheels. Vehicle A has solid suspension (no give) where as vehicle B has soft suspension.

The mass of the trains are equal and so is the power output of the locomotive.

If forward energy is lost due to weight transfer, then the train with the solid suspended vehicle on it would accelerate faster correct? No

Because in your train example the will be no 'leveraging' action. (Transfer of weight)

Take a board, lift one end only, the weight is transferred towards the end that is still on the ground, A soft suspension will abosrb more of the weight transfer's energy (quicker and longer motion/distance travelled) then will a stiffer suspension.
 
  • #14
Magnus, the engine's energy used to lift the front end of the car is lost to you for purposes of accelerating. Gravity brings the front end down again and you don't regain the energy. Therefore if you can keep the car front end from lifting, you keep more of the engine's energy available for acceleration. Fairly straight forward.

Folks who drag race production automobiles try to stiffen up the suspension as much as possible. If one looks at purpose built drag cars like top fuel dragsters, you see that they have no suspensions and very long wheelbases to control front end lift.

:smile:
 
  • #15
In the train example though, if the trans where able to accelerate as fast as the cars did at the track, and only the rear wheels where tied down.. wouldn't there be leveraging action due to momentum? The center of gravity of the car is higher than the point of forward force thus it goes upward? And if this is correct, then would the trains still accelerate evenly?

OldHubcap, I must have a bad mental image of the equation then. I just picture the wheels moving forward along the track. I picture them moving so fast that the front end comes up because of the rate of acceleration. I don't think of it as the engines power cranking up the front end as if the wheels where not moving.

Example: You have an RC car. You grab its rear wheels and give it a quick JERK forward.. front end comes up. Because the front end comes up it takes more energy for you to jerk the car forward than it would if the car where to remain parallell?
 
  • #16
Originally posted by OldHubcap
Magnus, the engine's energy used to lift the front end of the car is lost to you for purposes of accelerating. Gravity brings the front end down again and you don't regain the energy. Therefore if you can keep the car front end from lifting, you keep more of the engine's energy available for acceleration. Fairly straight forward.
Folks who drag race production automobiles try to stiffen up the suspension as much as possible. If one looks at purpose built drag cars like top fuel dragsters, you see that they have no suspensions and very long wheelbases to control front end lift.
:smile:

Nice, but on 'minor details' (which is what you need to finesse in competative drag racing) lifting of the front end, and the resultant weight transfers, increases the co-efficients of friction on the rear end of the car, giving it greater traction for forward propulsion.

Balancing it out well, gets the best result. That is also why Wheely bars let it lift the front, somewhat.

Better weight transfer means better rear end traction = greater accelerative possiblity.
 
  • #17
Very well put Mr. Parsons. You do need some degree of weight transfer to increase traction. Drag racing, like all motorsports, is about finding the proper balance. :smile:
 
  • #18
I understand the effects of weight transfer on traction...

did you guys read my last reply? That's where I'm getting confused.
 
  • #19
With respect to front end lift on a drag car.
The lift occurs when the car initially accelerates and still has little forward speed, thus allowing us to discount significant lift caused by airflow. This means that the energy to lift the front end ultimately comes from the engine. If you break it down into vectors, if the car had no lift, the only vector is pointing forward.

<<<<<<<<<< Imagine this is the vector for a perfectly rigid suspension. All 10 vector arrows go forward


If the front end lifts, the vector picture looks like this

^
^
^<<<<<<< In this case 3 vector arrows used to lift front of car and only 7 vector arrows accelerate the car.

Its a rather crude illustration, but I hope it sheds light on what is happening.
 
  • #20
I can understand that.

If your forward vector is so great though that the front end cannot come down due to the fact that the down force applied by gravity isn't enough to overcome the acceleration, what are you supposed to do to conserve energy?

In that scenario, isn't there no enrgy lost?
 
  • #21
If your question is "why is the front end lifting?", it is as a result of torque that the drive wheels apply to the car frame.

If you look at the wheels, as they begin to spin, you can figure out that there MUST be an equal, and opposite, torque force being applied to stop the frame of the car from being the item that turns instead of the wheels turning.

Imagine you hold the car in your hands (God that you would be) and hold it by the back wheels (only) so they cannot turn, apply the force of the motor to the drive wheeels and you will realize that, then, the frame of the car will be the thing that turns. (in large circles)

Does that help?
 
  • #22
I understand that. I separate the force that gravity applies though.

Say you throw a baseball... you have an X and Y vector. The X vector is depandant on your arm and air resistance. The y factor is dependant on gravity.

You throw the ball hard enough and it will never hit the Earth (escape velocity exceeded)... however, if you don't, gravity affects the Y vector completely independant of what X is doing.

Thanks for being patient, I'm just looking for understanding. :)
 
  • #23
Time is what makes the difference. Why are dragsters so long with center of gravity (cog) so far back? They need lightweight car, and they need to keep nose down. When traction kicks car forward, car starts turning around its cog, driving nose up. To slow this down, nose is made so long, to work as a lever of rotational inertia. This forces rear wheels to push against ground harder. Weight transfer is used to gain more traction at wheels. Lowering cog isn't good idea at all.

The very instant of start is what makes the most difference. Any subsecond lost there translates into lost run. With hard suspension, weight transfer happens faster, softer suspension wastes time on compression before max weight transfer occurs, and lowers cog. So, perhaps istead of wondering about energy, wonder about when it gets applied.

When wheels spin, some power is lost for acceleration, and stored in wheel rotational inertia. This rotational energy is regained, but later. By that time, competitive car has gained some advantage. So it seems that storing rotational energy makes sense only when max traction possible is achieved for given vehicle geometry and cog position. That means pushing rear wheels to the ground as hard as possible, as fast as possible, using inertial levers around cog.
 
  • #24
I think I got it now...

When you initially long the drag car, the roation of the pinion on the ring gear is what lifts the car (that and the torque arm pushing up on the body)... NOT the rapid acceleration of the tires. It's easier for the car to go up than it is forward under the instant shock.

So its not really a matter of your forward vector being greater than the down vectors applied by gravity, but instead the rotational vector applied by the ring/pinion/torque arm being greater than the forces applied by gravity.

Correct?
 
  • #25
Magnus, you got it!

Not to cloud things, but the driveshaft also exerts torgue on the axle, causing the axle to rotate on its pinion and move one wheel up and the other wheel down. Just wanted to point out that auto suspensions are subject to interesting stresses. :smile:
 
  • #26
See, I just thought though that the front end jerked up because the forward acceleration was so great, and the forward vector was lower than the COG thus making the front lift.
 
  • #27
Originally posted by OldHubcap
Magnus, you got it! AGREED!
Not to cloud things, but the driveshaft also exerts torgue on the axle, causing the axle to rotate on its pinion and move one wheel up and the other wheel down. Just wanted to point out that auto suspensions are subject to interesting stresses. :smile:
Again, AGREED, some of the usful additions are things like differential locks, positraction. (Lose due to weight and slippage) Tire 'circumfrence' size is absolutely critical as differtiation in tire sizing can cause the rear end to steer the car on takeoff, as would differentiated wheel slip. (hence the diff lock)

OldHubcap is right about the interesting stresses, but if you would want a real challenge, try to figure out how to stop the "pitching" that a wheel loader gets protection from (now-a-days) by the 'ride control system' in them, complex.
 
  • #28
Let me as you this then... ingore wind resistance.

If the force on the axle wasn't applied by the engine/tranny, but perhaps by a strap that was directly even with it on a horizontal level..

If the car accelerates fast enough to the point where the front end DOES lift due to its higher COG, there is no energy lost correct?

IE: Say you accelerated fast enough to where the front was just 1 foot off the ground as opposed to a car of equal weight that has a COG on the same axis as your forward vector (no lift).
 
  • #29
Originally posted by Magnus
Let me as you this then... ingore wind resistance.
If the force on the axle wasn't applied by the engine/tranny, but perhaps by a strap that was directly even with it on a horizontal level..
If the car accelerates fast enough to the point where the front end DOES lift due to its higher COG, there is no energy lost correct?
IE: Say you accelerated fast enough to where the front was just 1 foot off the ground as opposed to a car of equal weight that has a COG on the same axis as your forward vector (no lift).
Although the COG shifts towards the rear when the car lifts, it is the torque application (wheels/axles to frame/chassis) that is lifting the car. Hence the manner of drive, axle, shaft, belt makes little (But not absolutley "NO") difference in the way it will cause lift.

The energy isn't really "lost", per say, but is not being used to drive the car forward as much as it is being used to lift the front end, counteracting gravity.

If it could be kept/preserved to drive the car forward, it would be better, but at moments like that, in a drag racers/rails actions, the amounts of energy at play already has losses, due to tire spin, by way of a loss of traction, so that balancing acts actually can help to conserve some of that energy, that would, otherwise, be completely lost(?).
 
  • #30
I didn't read the whole thread, but let me clarify a misconception in the first few posts.

There is no loss of engine power whatsoever to the springs in the suspension. They are springs. You get energy back as the car accelerates. The only way you lose any of it is the damping from the shocks, which is insignificant.

Similarly if the front end lifts off the ground, some of the energy that would have accelerated it goes into lifting the front end - but you get that back as well when the front end drops back to the ground.

So the answer to the initial question is no: suspension issues have no effect on the total acceleration of a car.

One little catch though: In a drag race, its not the final speed that matters, its the avearge speed. The two cars would have identical 0-60 times, but the car with the stiffer suspension will have traveled further in that time (and thus win a drag race).
 
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  • #31
How do you get the energy back when the front end drops back onto the ground? You use engine power to lift it up, then whatever potential energy you gained while in the air doesn't all go completely towards accelerating the car.
 
  • #32
Originally posted by meister
How do you get the energy back when the front end drops back onto the ground? You use engine power to lift it up, then whatever potential energy you gained while in the air doesn't all go completely towards accelerating the car.
You do not really get the energy back, BUT as the car accelerates down the track, the wheel slipage diminishes to the point where all of the engines energy is effectively used driving the car forward, only!
No longer enough torque on the frame/chassis to lift it, so it transfers to the wheels to drive forward
 
  • #33
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
You do not really get the energy back, BUT as the car accelerates down the track, the wheel slipage diminishes to the point where all of the engines energy is effectively used driving the car forward, only!
No longer enough torque on the frame/chassis to lift it, so it transfers to the wheels to drive forward
How is this different from a drag car that keeps all four wheels on the ground at all times?
 
  • #34
Originally posted by meister
How do you get the energy back when the front end drops back onto the ground? You use engine power to lift it up, then whatever potential energy you gained while in the air doesn't all go completely towards accelerating the car.
Where does it go if not toward driving the car? It must go somewhere, it can't just disappear.

Thinking about the car in motion makes it seem more confusing than it really is. Attach a jack to the front of the car and lock the wheels. Wheat happens when you lift the front? It rolls back on the back tires. Now drop the front, what happens? It rolls forward to its original position.

And its easy enough to calculate how much. Let's say you lift the car so the angle between the wheels and the ground is 30 degrees. Let's say the tires are 36" in diameter.

30/360 * pi * 36 = 9.4"
How is this different from a drag car that keeps all four wheels on the ground at all times?
There is a slight dip in the acceleration curve, but the overall average acceleration remains the same.

The perfect scenario in fact would be one where the torque was exactly balanced between lifting the front of the car and staying right on the edge of spinning the tires. Lifting the front of the car increases the weight on the rear tires, increasing the traction, and increasing the maximum appliable torque (and thus maximizing acceleration). A "funny car" with its bicycle front wheels and cog all the way back is set up at a standstill in very nearly this condition.
 
Last edited:
  • #35
Ok, I was right in line with russ_watters ideas, however then I was swayed the other way.

Now I'm just completely confused.
 
<h2>1. How does the suspension of a car affect its handling?</h2><p>The suspension of a car is responsible for maintaining the contact between the tires and the road surface. A well-designed suspension system can improve the handling of a car by keeping the tires in contact with the road, providing stability, and minimizing body roll during turns.</p><h2>2. What is weight transfer and how does it impact a car's performance?</h2><p>Weight transfer refers to the redistribution of weight on a car during acceleration, braking, and turning. When a car accelerates, the weight shifts towards the rear, which can improve traction. On the other hand, when a car brakes, the weight shifts towards the front, which can improve braking performance. Weight transfer also affects a car's handling and stability during turns.</p><h2>3. How do different types of suspensions affect the ride quality of a car?</h2><p>The type of suspension used in a car can greatly impact its ride quality. For example, a coil spring suspension tends to provide a smoother ride compared to a leaf spring suspension. Additionally, a well-tuned suspension system can improve the overall comfort and handling of a car.</p><h2>4. How does the weight distribution of a car affect its performance?</h2><p>The weight distribution of a car, also known as the center of gravity, plays a crucial role in its performance. A lower center of gravity can improve stability and handling, while a higher center of gravity can make a car more prone to body roll and loss of control during turns.</p><h2>5. How do aerodynamics impact the physics of a car's movement?</h2><p>Aerodynamics refers to the study of how air flows around objects. In the case of a car, aerodynamics can greatly impact its movement and performance. A well-designed aerodynamic body can reduce drag and improve fuel efficiency, while also providing better handling and stability at high speeds.</p>

1. How does the suspension of a car affect its handling?

The suspension of a car is responsible for maintaining the contact between the tires and the road surface. A well-designed suspension system can improve the handling of a car by keeping the tires in contact with the road, providing stability, and minimizing body roll during turns.

2. What is weight transfer and how does it impact a car's performance?

Weight transfer refers to the redistribution of weight on a car during acceleration, braking, and turning. When a car accelerates, the weight shifts towards the rear, which can improve traction. On the other hand, when a car brakes, the weight shifts towards the front, which can improve braking performance. Weight transfer also affects a car's handling and stability during turns.

3. How do different types of suspensions affect the ride quality of a car?

The type of suspension used in a car can greatly impact its ride quality. For example, a coil spring suspension tends to provide a smoother ride compared to a leaf spring suspension. Additionally, a well-tuned suspension system can improve the overall comfort and handling of a car.

4. How does the weight distribution of a car affect its performance?

The weight distribution of a car, also known as the center of gravity, plays a crucial role in its performance. A lower center of gravity can improve stability and handling, while a higher center of gravity can make a car more prone to body roll and loss of control during turns.

5. How do aerodynamics impact the physics of a car's movement?

Aerodynamics refers to the study of how air flows around objects. In the case of a car, aerodynamics can greatly impact its movement and performance. A well-designed aerodynamic body can reduce drag and improve fuel efficiency, while also providing better handling and stability at high speeds.

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