- #36
Planar wave solution to zero potential Schrödinger equation
- Thread starter Schwarzschild90
- Start date
In summary, the conversation discusses the Schrödinger equation for a free particle with constant potential and the substitution of variables to separate them in order to find a solution. The resulting equation is a linear combination of cosine and sine functions. It is also mentioned that this result is satisfying and that the author of the exercise is asking for the use of the function in equation (1).
- #37
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...ve-is-negative-is-the-wavelength-negative-too
So it's because the wave is traveling in the opposite x-direction
So it's because the wave is traveling in the opposite x-direction
- #38
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
That's the vector aspect. From the ##k^2## condition you get ##\pm k## in one dimension.
I'm still wondering what they mean in (b) with 'wave functions of the previous form' where I only see one: $$\Psi = \exp[i(kx -\omega t)] $$
(or should that be ##|i(kx-\omega t)| ## ?? )
I'm still wondering what they mean in (b) with 'wave functions of the previous form' where I only see one: $$\Psi = \exp[i(kx -\omega t)] $$
(or should that be ##|i(kx-\omega t)| ## ?? )
- #39
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
Knowing them, then either way of doing it is correct.
How do I continue from here?
How do I continue from here?
- #40
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
"Knowing them, then either way of doing it is correct" ?
Have we seen that ##\Psi = e^ { -i(kx -\omega t) } ## satisfies the schroedinger equation ?
If so, then it's back to Euler
(have to run for work now... )
Have we seen that ##\Psi = e^ { -i(kx -\omega t) } ## satisfies the schroedinger equation ?
If so, then it's back to Euler
(have to run for work now... )
- #41
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
Yes, since we've found the dispersion relation.
\begin{align}
\begin{split}
\Psi = C_1 e^{i(kx-\omega t)} + C_2 e^{-i(kx-\omega t)} \to \\
e^{i(kx-\omega t)} = C_1 e^{i(kx-\omega t)} + C_2 e^{-i(kx-\omega t)}
\end{split}
\end{align}
\begin{align}
\begin{split}
\Psi = C_1 e^{i(kx-\omega t)} + C_2 e^{-i(kx-\omega t)} \to \\
e^{i(kx-\omega t)} = C_1 e^{i(kx-\omega t)} + C_2 e^{-i(kx-\omega t)}
\end{split}
\end{align}
- #42
- 21,501
- 12,660
The functions quoted are both traveling to the right (if ##k## is positive). They are linear combinations of this form
All you need to do is to identify the coefficients. Of course, negative ##k## will also give a solution to the SE, but that is besides the point - you have been given two particular wave functions and need to express them in terms of the functions you have.Schwarzschild90 said:
- #43
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
Hi again,
We're still in trouble; I asked on the advisor lounge forum and got very good counsel from @vanhees71 . I'll ask him if I can quote him (or better: that he quotes himself in this thread).
The judgment so far is that part (a) is just fine, but in part (b) the author goes astray (for the reason you found: the functions are not solutions to the Schroedinger equation). Hence the question: what book does this exercise come from ?
We're still in trouble; I asked on the advisor lounge forum and got very good counsel from @vanhees71 . I'll ask him if I can quote him (or better: that he quotes himself in this thread).
The judgment so far is that part (a) is just fine, but in part (b) the author goes astray (for the reason you found: the functions are not solutions to the Schroedinger equation). Hence the question: what book does this exercise come from ?
- #44
- 24,492
- 15,012
You are overlooking that these wave functions do not make the slightest sense, because they do not solve the time-dependent Schrödinger equation. Is there a fully formulated question somewhere in this thread or a reference to the textbook where this question appears?
What makes sense is to ask to investigate the degeneracy of the Hamiltonian's eigenstates for ##E \neq 0##. Indeed there are two solutions for each energy eigenvalue ##E>0##. I set ##\hbar=1##. For the beginners you should keep ##\hbar##
$$\hat{H} u_E(x)=E u_E(x) \; \Rightarrow \; -\frac{1}{2m} u_E''(x)=E u_E(x) \;\Rightarrow u_E(x)=\exp(\pm \mathrm{i} k x).$$
The modes of the time-dependent Schrödinger equation have always the time dependence ##\exp(-\mathrm{i} \omega_k t)##, ##\omega_k=k^2/(2m)##.
To distinguish the twice degenerate energy eigenvalues you need an additional observable. Here you can use parity, i.e., the operator
$$\hat{P} \psi(x)=\psi(-x)=\pm \psi(x).$$
Since ##\hat{P}## commutes with ##\hat{H}=\hat{p}^2/(2m)##, you can distinguish the degenerate eigenvectors by additionally determining the parity. This you get by the even and odd linear combinations
$$u_{E,P=1}(x)=\cos(k x), \quad u_{E,P-1}=\sin(k x), \quad k = \sqrt{2mE}.$$
The orresponding eigenmodes of the time-dependent Schrödinger equation are
$$u_{E,P=\pm 1}(t,x)=\exp(-\mathrm{i} E t) u_{E,P=\pm 1}(x), $$
i.e., both have the same time-dependent exponential factor, not ##\sin(\omega t-k x)##.
What makes sense is to ask to investigate the degeneracy of the Hamiltonian's eigenstates for ##E \neq 0##. Indeed there are two solutions for each energy eigenvalue ##E>0##. I set ##\hbar=1##. For the beginners you should keep ##\hbar##
$$\hat{H} u_E(x)=E u_E(x) \; \Rightarrow \; -\frac{1}{2m} u_E''(x)=E u_E(x) \;\Rightarrow u_E(x)=\exp(\pm \mathrm{i} k x).$$
The modes of the time-dependent Schrödinger equation have always the time dependence ##\exp(-\mathrm{i} \omega_k t)##, ##\omega_k=k^2/(2m)##.
To distinguish the twice degenerate energy eigenvalues you need an additional observable. Here you can use parity, i.e., the operator
$$\hat{P} \psi(x)=\psi(-x)=\pm \psi(x).$$
Since ##\hat{P}## commutes with ##\hat{H}=\hat{p}^2/(2m)##, you can distinguish the degenerate eigenvectors by additionally determining the parity. This you get by the even and odd linear combinations
$$u_{E,P=1}(x)=\cos(k x), \quad u_{E,P-1}=\sin(k x), \quad k = \sqrt{2mE}.$$
The orresponding eigenmodes of the time-dependent Schrödinger equation are
$$u_{E,P=\pm 1}(t,x)=\exp(-\mathrm{i} E t) u_{E,P=\pm 1}(x), $$
i.e., both have the same time-dependent exponential factor, not ##\sin(\omega t-k x)##.
- #45
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
Sorry for barging into this thread! 
I agree that the author of the problem has made a booboo in part (b)!
Wrt the parity thing, it's probably worth noting that the momentum eigenstates aren't parity eigenstates - that is, they're not states of definite parity. Indeed, if you do a parity transformation on a right-going wave, you get a left-going wave, and vice versa.
To distinguish between the momentum eigenstates, just look at the momentum!
I think what the author is getting at is that you can build sin's and cos's (states of definite parity) by adding together momentum eigenstates.
I agree that the author of the problem has made a booboo in part (b)!
Wrt the parity thing, it's probably worth noting that the momentum eigenstates aren't parity eigenstates - that is, they're not states of definite parity. Indeed, if you do a parity transformation on a right-going wave, you get a left-going wave, and vice versa.
To distinguish between the momentum eigenstates, just look at the momentum!
I think what the author is getting at is that you can build sin's and cos's (states of definite parity) by adding together momentum eigenstates.
- #46
- 24,492
- 15,012
Yes, and the correct time-dependent states are then ##\cos(k x) \exp[-\mathrm{i} E(k) t]## and ##\sin(k x) \exp[-\mathrm{i} E(k) t]##. These are the energy eigenstates in the Heisenberg picture of time evolution, by the way.
- #47
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
It seems we've lost OP a little. How are things? What did teacher have to say and from which book was this exercise ?
- #48
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
vanhees71 said:
In the Heisenberg picture, the time dependence is shifted from the states to the operators, so there's no [itex]\exp(-iEt/\hbar)[/itex] factor attached to the energy eigenstates. Otherwise things are much the same. But I think we're getting sufficiently off-topic to thoroughly confuse the OP!
Perhaps it's worth writing down what part (b) of the problem probably should have said:
Problem should have said:
- #49
- 24,492
- 15,012
As the operators that represent operators carry the full time dependence in the Heisenberg picture their eigenvectors also carry that time dependendence.
In the Schrödinger picture these operators are time-independent and thus also their eigenvectors, but that's really not to the topic of this thread.
In the Schrödinger picture these operators are time-independent and thus also their eigenvectors, but that's really not to the topic of this thread.
- #50
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
Agreed - but what I'm trying to say is slightly different - if in the Heisenberg picture the wavefunction of the system starts out as sin(kx), then it will always remain sin(kx). Its inner products with eigenvectors of some given observable will however be time dependent, because as you rightly say, those eigenvectors inherit time dependence from the operator representing the observable.
- #51
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
vanhees71 said:
Notice also that the Heisenberg eigenstates you're talking about evolve the other way: in the above [itex]\exp(-iEt)[/itex] should be replaced by [itex]\exp(iEt)[/itex].
- #52
- 24,492
- 15,012
Well, it depends what are you looking on. What I've written down is the wave function, representing the state of a system. It's in fact independent of the picture used to calculate it. It's easy to see in the bra-ket formalism:
Heisenberg picture
-----------------------
The state vector is time-independent:
$$|\psi(t) \rangle_{\text{H}}=|\psi(t_0) \rangle_{\text{H}},$$
while the eigenstates (e.g., the position eigenstates) are time dependent) according to
$$|x,t \rangle_{\text{H}}=\exp[\mathrm{i} \hat{H} (t-t_0)] |x,t_0 \rangle_{\text{H}}.$$
Thus the wave function (which is picture independent!) is given by
$$\psi(t,x)=_{\text{H}} \langle x,t|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{H}}=_{\text{H}} \langle x,t_0| \exp[-\mathrm{i} \hat{H} (t-t_0)|\psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{H}}.$$
If the state vector is an energy eigenstate, you have
$$u_E(t,x)=\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t_0) t] u_E(t_0,x).$$
Schrödinger picture
------------------------
The state ket carries the full time dependence
$$|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t_0) \hat{H}]|\psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}},$$
and the eigenkets of the observable operators are time-independent
$$|x,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=|x,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}}.$$
Again you find the same time dependence of the wave function (which is picture independent)
$$\psi(t,x)=_{\text{S}} \langle x,t|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=_{\text{S}} \langle x,t_0|\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t') \hat{H}] \psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}}.$$
If the particle is in an energy eigenstate at ##t_0##, you find again the same result as when using the Heisenberg picture, as it must be
$$u_E(t,x)=\exp[-\mathrm{i} E (t-t_0)] u_{E}(t_0,x).$$
Of course, this tells us that the state doesn't change in this case, because the time evolution boils down to a simple phase factor, and the physical meaning is just the ##|\psi(t,x)|^2##, which is the probability distribution for finding the particle at ##x## when looking for it at time ##t##. For the energy eigenstate as the state vector, the phase factor cancels, and thus the energy eigenstates are precisely the stationary states of the particle.
Heisenberg picture
-----------------------
The state vector is time-independent:
$$|\psi(t) \rangle_{\text{H}}=|\psi(t_0) \rangle_{\text{H}},$$
while the eigenstates (e.g., the position eigenstates) are time dependent) according to
$$|x,t \rangle_{\text{H}}=\exp[\mathrm{i} \hat{H} (t-t_0)] |x,t_0 \rangle_{\text{H}}.$$
Thus the wave function (which is picture independent!) is given by
$$\psi(t,x)=_{\text{H}} \langle x,t|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{H}}=_{\text{H}} \langle x,t_0| \exp[-\mathrm{i} \hat{H} (t-t_0)|\psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{H}}.$$
If the state vector is an energy eigenstate, you have
$$u_E(t,x)=\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t_0) t] u_E(t_0,x).$$
Schrödinger picture
------------------------
The state ket carries the full time dependence
$$|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t_0) \hat{H}]|\psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}},$$
and the eigenkets of the observable operators are time-independent
$$|x,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=|x,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}}.$$
Again you find the same time dependence of the wave function (which is picture independent)
$$\psi(t,x)=_{\text{S}} \langle x,t|\psi,t \rangle_{\text{S}}=_{\text{S}} \langle x,t_0|\exp[-\mathrm{i}(t-t') \hat{H}] \psi,t_0 \rangle_{\text{S}}.$$
If the particle is in an energy eigenstate at ##t_0##, you find again the same result as when using the Heisenberg picture, as it must be
$$u_E(t,x)=\exp[-\mathrm{i} E (t-t_0)] u_{E}(t_0,x).$$
Of course, this tells us that the state doesn't change in this case, because the time evolution boils down to a simple phase factor, and the physical meaning is just the ##|\psi(t,x)|^2##, which is the probability distribution for finding the particle at ##x## when looking for it at time ##t##. For the energy eigenstate as the state vector, the phase factor cancels, and thus the energy eigenstates are precisely the stationary states of the particle.
- #53
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
Sure - if you define the wavefunction in this nice picture-independent way, then it goes as [itex]e^{-i\omega t}[/itex]. That is, it evolves "forwards" in time. And indeed in this post you said the correct thing about the Heisenberg picture position eigenstates, which evolve "backwards" in time:
But now you should just apply the same logic to the Heisenberg picture energy eigenstates- they likewise evolve "backwards" in time. Instead, you confused these states with what you've called the wavefunction of the system:
That's the only part where I'd disagree with you.
[with apologies to the OP for this thread hijack!]
vanhees71 said:
But now you should just apply the same logic to the Heisenberg picture energy eigenstates- they likewise evolve "backwards" in time. Instead, you confused these states with what you've called the wavefunction of the system:
vanhees71 said:
That's the only part where I'd disagree with you.
[with apologies to the OP for this thread hijack!]
- #54
- 24,492
- 15,012
In this strange problem they talked about wave functions. Maybe it was a bit misleading to bring in different pictures. The solutions of the Schrödinger equation give wave functions, and energy eigenwavefunctions always have the time dependence ##\exp(-\mathrm{i} E t)##.
- #55
Oxvillian
- 196
- 22
Indeed, the whole active/passive transformation business can always be relied upon to generate confusion. 
- #56
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
So, Schwarzschild, you have seen what can happen on PF, even with an innocent looking exercise. Happens quite bit here. My estimate is you are being introduced to QM and a lot of the posts may be going over your head. How are you ? Would you care to answer #47 ?
- #57
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
#47: I don't know which book the exercise is from. I think the authors invented the exercise themselves.
- #58
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
Hehe, authors but not a book isn't much to go by. If not a book, what is it and where did it come from ? It's not like we are going to jump on them or anything ! Just curiosity and perhaps a gentle nudge in the form of a polite question .
However, if you have good reason to be somewhat evasive that will be respected.
Personally,I really liked the thread because it made me re-think things I thought I knew at least a little about -- and it turned out I didn't get much further than severe doubt about the answer...
.However, if you have good reason to be somewhat evasive that will be respected.
Personally,I really liked the thread because it made me re-think things I thought I knew at least a little about -- and it turned out I didn't get much further than severe doubt about the answer...
"In the end, we're all beginners.."
- #59
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
It's nothing of that sort, hehe. I'm not instructed to hide course material
We use the book "introduction to quantum mechanics 2nd edition" for the course.
We use the book "introduction to quantum mechanics 2nd edition" for the course.
Last edited:
- #60
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
Most widely known by that title is Griffiths, but I don't think it has a "1. Historical introduction" 
- #61
gracy
- 2,486
- 83
Yup. First chapter is " The wave function" .BvU said:
- #62
- 24,492
- 15,012
Ehm, could you just give a fully valid citation, which is in a format like
S. Weinberg, Lectures on Quantum Mechanics, Cambridge University Press (2013)?
S. Weinberg, Lectures on Quantum Mechanics, Cambridge University Press (2013)?
- #63
Schwarzschild90
- 113
- 1
I have uploaded the entire document for you
- #64
BvU
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
- 15,977
- 4,805
Thanks. Well, perhaps you can score some brownie points for yourself by bringing this up carefully ?
Like: "could there be a small glitch in part b" ? I think the ##\Psi_s ## and ##\Psi_c## don't satisfy the SE ?
Like: "could there be a small glitch in part b" ? I think the ##\Psi_s ## and ##\Psi_c## don't satisfy the SE ?
Similar threads
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help
-
Advanced Physics Homework Help