Plastic Bag Recycling: Costs, Disposal & Pollution

[JaWiB]

Take a look at this slide show:

http://www.poconorecord.com/_flash/soundslides/20080505plasticbags/soundslider.swf

"There's harsh economics behind There's harsh economics behind
bag recycling: It costs $4,000 to bag recycling: It costs $4,000 to
process and recycle 1 ton of plastic process and recycle 1 ton of plastic bags, which can then be sold on bags, which can then be sold on the commodities market for $32 the commodities market for $32”

Everywhere I've looked on line for information about plastic bag recycling costs, this quote (by Jared Blumenfeld) seems to keep popping up. Is recycling plastic bags really that costly?

Moreover, does anyone know where our plastic bags are really going? I've read that they're often sent overseas where disposal laws are lax and they can be incinerated, causing air pollution.

 

[BoomBoom]

Moreover, does anyone know where our plastic bags are really going? I've read that they're often sent overseas where disposal laws are lax and they can be incinerated, causing air pollution.

I use mine to pick up dog poop, and I must admit I have no idea what happens to them after that. :yuck:

Our city (Seattle) just passed a law that requires all stores to charge 20 cents per disposable bag to encourage people to use re-usable bags. You would think the $$ earned by this surcharge should go towards the cost of recycling, but I suspect they are just using the money for other things under the guise of "doing good".

 

[wolram]

They use plastic bags to decorate hedge rows with where i live, it is very clever how they do it, they just use an open top garbage wagon and let the wind take the bags to the hedges.

 

[chayced]

If plastic bag recycling was economical people would be paying you for your bags. We might even see plastic thefts at construction sites, but we don't. As for the environmental impact, sure birds can get caught in them and die, they can also get sucked into jet engines or run into windows or even get fried by microwave transmissions. Life is hard for a bird, but at least they have fewer predators.

Every time a "surcharge" (read 'Tax') is added by the government, it's all about money. Even if they guarantee the money is to put towards recycling, that doesn't really mean anything. Lotterys for school funding is a prime example. Schools get $10 for funding. Lottery is started to fund schools, raises $8. So school funding is now $18 right? Wrong, school funding is still $10 maybe $11, but $7 of new found budget can be spent on other things. It looks great on paper, makes the people feel good about giving the government more money, but it's really just a new tax going into general funds.

 

[WarPhalange]

I just hand out any left-over plastic bags I have to toddlers to play with.

 

[Moonbear]

If they would sell reusable ones in a proper size instead of in those miniature versions, I'd probably start getting some. But, since they would add more trips up and down stairs to carry more bags in from my car because they're too small to hold a decent amount of groceries, I'm sticking with the plastic bags. It's bad enough that most stores don't have paper bags anymore and the plastic bags are already smaller than the paper bags used to be. I'd reuse them more if the stores didn't use such cheap, thin plastic bags that they already have holes in them by the time I get home (I really prefer paper bags).

 

[mgb_phys]

Like most people I use the free supermarket bags to put trash in.
I could use paper bags and buy plastic bin-liners I suppose!

Other things to consider, how much energy (oil) does it take to make a paper bag, how much to transport them?
As an example, in the UK we used to have milk delivered to the door in re-used glass bottles (even better than recycling - the same bottles were taken back and refilled).
Then one town switched to plastic pouches, it worked out it used 5t of plastic in the pouches but 200t/year of fuel oil to heat the water to wash the bottles. Plus the extra energy to transport the heavy glass bottles plus the amount of waste water to be treated.

End-end energy use isn't always as simple as landfill=bad.

 

[JaWiB]

If they would sell reusable ones in a proper size instead of in those miniature versions, I'd probably start getting some. But, since they would add more trips up and down stairs to carry more bags in from my car because they're too small to hold a decent amount of groceries, I'm sticking with the plastic bags. It's bad enough that most stores don't have paper bags anymore and the plastic bags are already smaller than the paper bags used to be. I'd reuse them more if the stores didn't use such cheap, thin plastic bags that they already have holes in them by the time I get home (I really prefer paper bags).

Around here (Washington) all the stores I go to have paper and plastic. And the reusable bags look like they're about the same size as paper bags (which are bigger than plastic bags). Plus, the reusable ones have handles.

>If plastic bag recycling was economical people would be paying you for your bags.
I never thought it was economical, but I thought the price of recycling wouldn't be as bad as that ($32 return on $4000 in recycling)

>End-end energy use isn't always as simple as landfill=bad.
Very true. One of the reasons I think reusable bags are a good idea.There's still other considerations (do you wash the bags at home, for instance) but I think they're a better choice than recycling or putting plastic bags in a landfill (or wherever they end up).

 

[Chi Meson]

Where I live, a lot of garbage goes to a "Resource-recovery" plant, which is an incinerator-generator. I have no qualms about it, since I believe that the highly efficient burning process and the scrubbing process make trash-burning one of the greenest options for electricity.

Those plastic bags are a bundle of petroleum energy. The equivalent energy from coal-burning is far more polluting.

Ditto for paper bags; burn them too (in my wood stove).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I believe California is trying to institute a plastic bag tax of 50 cents a piece. Considering the number of bags the average grocery store uses to bag your groceries, including double bagging, you could wind up getting taxed a few dollars just for one small grocery trip.

The worst part about this sort of thing is that California consistently comes up with these tax schemes for "deterence" of certain behavior but then bank on having the money from the tax. So once the "deterence" factor kicks in they suddenly start to whine and complain that they aren't making as much in revenue as they expected and need to institute more taxes.

 

[lisab]

...do you wash the bags at home, for instance...

Wash them? Never thought about it...but if I did I would dry them using Woolie's hedge row method. Very energy efficient!

 

[Moonbear]

Wash them? Never thought about it...but if I did I would dry them using Woolie's hedge row method. Very energy efficient!

:rofl:

That is a good point. I've certainly arrived home to discover the milk container fell over and leaked all over the bag on the way home, and I don't even try saving the bags I use for meat, because those packages are often leaky too.

A big part of the problem with plastic bags is their shape and bad material quality make it hard to fully utilize the bag. I do my best to reduce the number of bags I carry out of the store simply by packing them as efficiently as possible. Even so, I just can't really pack them as well as I used to be able to pack paper bags. You'll end up using 4 plastic bags to every 1 paper bag. Because paper bags hold their shape, you could really pack them full. Put a layer of canned goods at the bottom, then a middle layer of goods in soft packaging (paper products, things in boxes), then put your produce on top of it all, and sometimes still room for the loaf of bread on top. With the plastic bags, everything shifts around, and once I put in a layer of canned goods, the handle is already risking breaking, and the bag shape makes it impossible to carry it from the bottom.

So, when you consider the costs, you also have to think about HOW MANY bags do you use of any particular type.

I hadn't thought about the need to wash those reusable bags, but that's yet another consideration, especially as I think about it and realize the ones in the local stores are either bright blue or bright green (matching store logos), so they probably aren't colorfast to put in with your other laundry. Can they be bleached if meat packages leak into them? Is it more green to wash and dry your grocery bags, or to use plastic and toss?

I WISH the ones here were the same size as paper bags. The ones they sell here are about half the size (they're closer to the size of the plastic bags). Something the size and shape of a paper bag with sturdy handles would be much more appealing to me (though, when I was still a teen in NJ, they had paper bags with handles...while you couldn't use the handle if the bag was heavy, if it was just light stuff in it, those were quite convenient for carrying one extra bag into the house at a time).

Maybe I should start making my own from fabric remnants. Then I'll know they're washable, I can make them any size I like, and will be sure the handles are sewn on in a way that will last.

 

[turbo]

My wife has a large collection of canvas shopping bags - some very large ones for light items like bread, cereals, etc, and some smaller ones for heavier items. They have lasted for years and years and can just be tossed in the wash when they get dirty. The supermarket she shops at gives per-bag discounts when you bring your own re-usable bags.

 

[Redbelly98]

Our city (Seattle) just passed a law that requires all stores to charge 20 cents per disposable bag to encourage people to use re-usable bags. You would think the $$ earned by this surcharge should go towards the cost of recycling, but I suspect they are just using the money for other things under the guise of "doing good".

But does it really matter what they do with the money? If it encourages more people to use reusable bags, the good has already been done.

 

[hypatia]

I get a 3 cent a bag discount for using my canvas bags. With so many people using them here, the baggers actually know how to pack them now.

 

[OmCheeto]

Wash them? Never thought about it...but if I did I would dry them using Woolie's hedge row method. Very energy efficient!

My cousin sent out a family wide email the other day denouncing the use of plastic bags. I thought it was very odd. I'm always at the river and am looking for them to put all the trash into. I suppose I could build my own hedge row to collect them.

But for the most part, I do what mgb_phys does, I use them as trash bags at home. Though I think I might already have a 40 year supply stored up.

I also get a "food day" newspaper shaped coupon brick thrown onto my driveway every Tuesday. These come in smaller plastic bags. I've discovered that they make great automobile trash bags. Although I have to double them up as they usually have a hole in them somewhere. Otherwise, it's garbage in, garbage out.

...


Sorry...

 

[chayced]

But does it really matter what they do with the money? If it encourages more people to use reusable bags, the good has already been done.

First this assumes that reusable bags are really better, whatever better means. Unless someone can show me the amount of energy (and water ) consumed in creating/transporting a disposable plastic bag vs washing a reusable one I am going to leave this as an unanswered question.

Second, if this is really doing good, why doesn't the government just outlaw plastic bags insead of charging for them? It's the same reason the government raises the cost of water (supposedly to influence conservation.) then when less water is used they increase the cost again! If plastic bags are truly this big a concern then outlaw them! If we really are running out of water then ration it! What this is doing is puting the squease on the poor while putting more money in the pockets of a government that has proven itself irresponsible!

P.S. I don't see any reason to get all concerned about plastic bags, but it does scare me that there are some people who do.

 

[turbo]

First this assumes that reusable bags are really better, whatever better means. Unless someone can show me the amount of energy (and water ) consumed in creating/transporting a disposable plastic bag vs washing a reusable one I am going to leave this as an unanswered question.

There is no need to wash a canvas bag unless it is dirtied by a leaky package of chicken, steak, or something. A little fruit juice etc isn't going to hurt anything. Most of the food in stores is packaged so heavily that the bags are just ways of gathering lots of packages of food in one container with handles. Is using canvas bags better for the environment than using plastic bags? Given the high petrochemical content of the plastic and the amount of energy needed to melt and form the sheets, cut them, and weld the seams, I doubt that you can make a clear case for using plastic bags over canvas. Paper bags are a bit better than plastic. Wood is a renewable resource, but it takes a LOT of energy to chemically digest the wood (the Kraft process is the only one that produces long fibers to make really strong bag-stock) and then the pulp must be washed, de-watered and delivered to a bag-stock paper machine. The sheet has to be formed, pressed, and steam-dried so there is a lot of energy tied up in every bit of bag-stock or liner-board. When I was a kid, stores got their stock in corrugated cartons, and when you brought your purchases to the counter, they offered you the choice of boxes or bags. Those of us who heated with wood always chose boxes, because we got a little free fuel and good fire-starting material out of the boxes. Bags were OK, but boxes were better.

 

[JaWiB]

Second, if this is really doing good, why doesn't the government just outlaw plastic bags insead of charging for them? It's the same reason the government raises the cost of water (supposedly to influence conservation.) then when less water is used they increase the cost again! If plastic bags are truly this big a concern then outlaw them! If we really are running out of water then ration it! What this is doing is puting the squease on the poor while putting more money in the pockets of a government that has proven itself irresponsible!

It's not like there's any difference between outlawing and taxing something. Why not just outlaw cigarettes? Or alcohol?

The difference between plastic bags and water, as I see it, is that people don't need plastic bags (but go ahead and try to argue that they do, and that fees for bags is actually a significant burden on them).

By the way, did you look at the link I posted? There's a lot of reasons in that link to think plastic bags are bad (likely worse than reusable) for the environment, and I'd be interested to hear if you could dispute them.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Just tonight the local supermarket reduced the price for these reusable bags from $1.29 each to 4 for $1.98. They take a nickel off the tape for each reusable bag that you bring with you, and just to be counter-intuitive, they take 2 cents off the tape if you reuse a plastic bag. Huh? Anyway, I bought 2000 reusable bags, so from now on, all my grocery shopping will be free. I feel I am doing something positive for the environment and the economy too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

But does it really matter what they do with the money? If it encourages more people to use reusable bags, the good has already been done.

See my post. If enough people actually stop using the bags they will just find another way to tax you to tack on to all the rest of the taxes. May you're not taxed much where you live anyway though.

 

[Redbelly98]

How would you prefer your state raise the money it needs to cover its expenses? Higher income taxes?

 

[Moonbear]

How would you prefer your state raise the money it needs to cover its expenses? Higher income taxes?

It makes a lot more sense than things like taxing plastic bag use, especially when the stated goal is to reduce plastic bag use. And, the more types of tax you have, the more it costs to regulate it. Not only do you need an office to handle income tax, then you need staff for the sales tax, now another staff to make sure stores are collecting their plastic bag tax. Of course, I don't think food and clothing should be subject to additional taxes at all. If someone has a job and pays their income taxes, they should be able to budget the remaining money they take home for food, clothing and shelter without worrying about more taxes. Only if they buy "extras" should sales tax start applying. Better yet, just bundle the costs into income tax since you're going to pay it anyway, and then we all know exactly how much the government is keeping and how much we have to spend.

And, taxes shouldn't be applied as penalties to induce behavior modification. They should be limited only to funding needed government programs. Taxing plastic bag use is the wrong way to go about reducing their use. There is already plenty of incentive for stores to encourage consumers to bring their own reusable bags, because that cuts the store's costs. People will be more likely to make this change voluntarily if they aren't being told to do it by the government.

Of course, better than plastic bags or paper bags or reusable bags, I like the stores that just save all the boxes the products are shipped in and pack your order into those. It's one more use of the cardboard boxes before they hit the recycling bin. Keeps food prices down too, because the stores then also save on the costs associated with disposing of all those volumes of boxes.

 

[LowlyPion]

I believe California is trying to institute a plastic bag tax of 50 cents a piece. Considering the number of bags the average grocery store uses to bag your groceries, including double bagging, you could wind up getting taxed a few dollars just for one small grocery trip.

No need to pay $.50 a bag. Buy a pack of regular garbage bags every time you go and dump the contents in those. They aren't cheap, but they aren't $.50 either. Even paper lawn leaf bags only go for about $.40/stuk.

If they institute such a charge, then people will over-pack the bags and they will split and drop groceries and people and stores will be at odds with each other over who's responsibility the broken eggs and spewing soda bottles are.

Personally I recycle the bags back to the grocery collection, except for those that I might repurpose for anything from breading chicken to flattening veal to containing meat scraps that go into the garbage.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

How would you prefer your state raise the money it needs to cover its expenses? Higher income taxes?

This state unfortunately is not very fiscally responsable. If the tax goes through they will attempt to calculate how much they expect to make in revenue from the tax. They will then allocate those funds before they even acquire them. Citizens will eventually modify their behavior to avoid the tax and the budget will suffer a short fall. It's happened several times now, especially with taxes supposedly designed to modify citizen behavior, and the state is perpetually on the brink of bankruptcy even though it has the wealthiest economy in the country. California is the poster child for slippery slope taxation. Considering that the actual purpose of the tax is to help balance the budget, and not to help the environment, it will only create a domino chain of more problems some of which Moonie has already pointed out.

 

[Moonbear]

This state unfortunately is not very fiscally responsable. If the tax goes through they will attempt to calculate how much they expect to make in revenue from the tax.

All the more reason that income taxes are better than all these little taxes. When people see the money coming directly out of their paycheck, and see how much they are really being taxed all at once, they have a tendency to demand more accountability than when it's in smaller doses they don't notice as much. People don't necessarily think about 50 cents here and there, but they sure would wake up if they saw it as the $100 or $200 a year that it could easily add up to, depending on how many groceries they're buying. I have more to say about CA's taxation issues, but don't want to drag this thread off-topic, so will stick with the plastic bag tax notion.

 

[maze]

 

[Gokul43201]

Paper bags are a bit better than plastic. Wood is a renewable resource, but it takes a LOT of energy to chemically digest the wood (the Kraft process is the only one that produces long fibers to make really strong bag-stock) and then the pulp must be washed, de-watered and delivered to a bag-stock paper machine. The sheet has to be formed, pressed, and steam-dried so there is a lot of energy tied up in every bit of bag-stock or liner-board.

I read somewhere recently that paper is only marginally more energy efficient than plastic, as far as the manufacturing goes. But when it comes to transportation, the huge excess weight of paper bags makes them less overall energy happy than plastic. But that's only the analysis from raw material to end user, without consideration for reuse/recycling/disposal.

 

[turbo]

I read somewhere recently that paper is only marginally more energy efficient than plastic, as far as the manufacturing goes. But when it comes to transportation, the huge excess weight of paper bags makes them less overall energy happy than plastic. But that's only the analysis from raw material to end user, without consideration for reuse/recycling/disposal.

Very true, though paper bags are handy for other things, and as you noted, reuse has value for us. When we get paper bags (it happens from time to time), we save them and reuse them in a number of ways. Kraft bags are great containers for keeping vegetables like green beans and cucumbers dry and crispy under refrigeration. They are also handy receptacles for shucks and silk when we're cleaning corn on the cob, and when we're done shucking corn, the waste can go - bag and all - into one of the compost bins. Kraft bags compost well. Dry paper bags also make good fire-starting material, though we never have enough on hand to make that a regular practice. Plastic bags are just one more thing to segregate and take to the recycling center, so we avoid them whenever possible.

 

[Ms Music]

I had that video emailed to me over the weekend. I wonder how valid its claims are. I personally use plastic bags, but I have also always assumed that they were being recycled. now I am wondering....

My teenage daughter stumbled across some interesting youtube videos last week. It was a documentary that was broken down into approximately 20 short videos, but they traveled to the Pacific Ocean where there is this big area that plastic collects. I didn't watch all of them, but from what I saw, it appears it is PLASTIC IN GENERAL that is the problem. They found plastic bags, saran wrap from deli sandwiches, plastic bottles, and even raw plastic beads. They also found some plastics had broken down into teeny particles, but the chemicals were in very high concentration in the water, which put all those chemicals into the fish that were in that area.

Also on a personal note, I see the Seattle 20 cent tax per bag as nothing. It isn't enough money for me to change my shopping habbits (although I live outside the city limits, so it doesn't really affect me) it would be only about a dollar a week. But if I found that the bags (and plastics) that I put in my recycling bin are NOT being recycled locally, but shipped overseas to be put in a dump somewhere THAT would be enough to make me change to washable canvas bags.

I think people just need to be more aware of plastics in general, and how their convenience as a consumer actually cause problems.

 

[turbo]

One concern of mine is that the guy at our town's waste transfer station/recycle facility can't tell me where that plastic is going. With all the containers coming to the US from China, I have a sneaking suspicion the the recycling outfits are simply pressing and baling these "recycled" plastics, loading them into containers and shipping them to China. Those containers have to be returned to China anyway, so why not return them full of our waste plastic and other materials that are supposed to be being recycled? Our town has to pay a recycling outfit to haul away the plastic, and I expect the recycling business is not sorting and recycling the material if they can sell it to a business in another country where re-using plastics or even burning them for fuel can be done with few environmental regulations.

 

[Logger]

Here in Ireland in 2002 they put a tax on plastic bags used in Ireland.It costs about 35US cents per bag.Since the introduction the amount of litter has reduced quite a lot.If you but fruit,bread,meats etc they give you smaller plastics bags free,but for packing your groceries you have to pay the 35cents.Everybody brings their own bags these days.They are large re-usable bags normally.I can only say that it has been a great introduction and every country should adopt this tax.

 

[mgb_phys]

I can only say that it has been a great introduction and every country should adopt this tax.

Do you now buy plastic bin liners?

Reduce -> Reuse -> Recycle - I use as few plastic bags as possible, but the ones I do take I reuse as bin liners, it's better than buying recycled trash bags.

 

[Moonbear]

When I was a kid, and paper bags were all we had, we used the paper bags as trash bin liners. I think that was better than using the plastic bags, because at least the paper bags are biodegradable when they head to the landfill. We'd only use the large plastic trash can liners as an actual liner...basically, it was back up if a paper bag broke or leaked, but that was rare because most "leaky" things went to the compost heap. Since the plastic bags from the grocery store always arrive home with holes in the bottom, they're pretty useless for anything other than being put IN the trash. I can't even use them to scoop kitty litter. I reuse the sturdier plastic bags from department stores though. But, even so, I end up with way more plastic bags than I can ever reuse, so a lot end up just heading to the trash with no secondary use.

Paper bags had many secondary uses. Aside from being used for trash bags, they could be used instead of paper towels for draining fried foods. They made good book covers when I was in school (instead of buying covers). As turbo pointed out, they were great for holding fresh produce and storing it without spoiling. More often than not, we'd run out of paper bags before we ran out of uses for them, unlike plastic bags that just accumulate with very little function beyond their original purpose.

Though, now I'm wondering if I could take a bunch of the torn ones and weave them together into a sturdier reusable bag?

 

[mgb_phys]

Though, now I'm wondering if I could take a bunch of the torn ones and weave them together into a sturdier reusable bag?

Or with a stapler or sticky tape your own line of recyclable, ready for the cat-walk, evening wear.