Please come to lovely North Korea

[MotoH]

Oh Kim Jong-il! You so funny!

NEVER mind the chronic food shortage: North Korea’s propaganda apparatus is partying like it’s 99 — and over there, it is. Year 1 of the Juche Calendar (named after “Juche Thought,” the regime’s official pseudo-ideology) was 1912, the birth year of the state’s founder, Kim Il-sung, whose birthday was celebrated last week. The new century will therefore be celebrated next year with all the requisite hoopla, which must then be outdone in 2012 for the 100th anniversary of Kim’s birth. The approach of back-to-back centennials, each symbolic of a national coming-of-age, puts great pressure on Kim’s successor and son, Kim Jong-il, to improve living conditions for the masses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/opinion/18myers.ready.html?pagewanted=1"

Our Strength
(Poem from Children’s Literature magazine, March 2010)

You Yankee bastards, look in surprise at the sky;

Then come here with bent heads, looking into the ground

You wonder what power fired the Kwangmyongsong missile

And how, startling the world,

We broke new ground in C.N.C. technology

You can’t begin to know our military-first strength;

It can’t be measured with your yardsticks.

Crow Mimics Swan
(Korean Woman magazine, February 2010)
On an autumn day last year, when the leaves were falling, the U.S. Department of State put out a "Human Rights Report."
...
It’s funny all right, like a crow mimicking a swan. Because the whole world knows that the United States leads the way in human rights violations. ... The United States is truly the devil of our times, amusing itself with murder. "America" is synonymous with "massacre."

For the world’s most serious violator of human rights to blather on about them is a mockery, an insult to human rights. ... It’s like the old story of the thief who cried "Thief!": America’s moaning about human rights is a crafty trick aimed at covering up its own status as the world leader of human rights violations. But can a crow become a swan just by whitewashing itself?

If living in a free country means being a crow, I have no problem going "caw caw caw"

 

[CRGreathouse]

I've always wondered what the typical North Koreans think of the propaganda. The expats don't think much of it, of course, but they're atypical.`

 

[mheslep]

I've always wondered what the typical North Koreans think of the propaganda. The expats don't think much of it, of course, but they're atypical.`

They seem to be well caught up in it, producing an almost pathologically xenophobic and racist society.

A Nation of Racist Dwarfs
Kim Jong-il's regime is even weirder and more despicable than you thought - Slate, C. Hitchens

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933633913/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[russ_watters]

Quotes from the article:

The United States and its partners make up in aid for the huge shortfall in North Korea's food production, but there is not a hint of acknowledgment of this by the authorities, who tell their captive subjects that the bags of grain stenciled with the Stars and Stripes are tribute paid by a frightened America to the Dear Leader.

These conclusions of his, in a finely argued and brilliantly written book, carry the worrisome implication that the propaganda of the regime may actually mean exactly what it says, which in turn would mean that peace and disarmament negotiations with it are a waste of time—and perhaps a dangerous waste at that.

I've always considered our negotiations with N. Korea a waste. The pattern is unmistakable: they provoke us, then negotiate concessions in exchange for stopping the provocation. It seems obvious to me that we should not be continuing this cycle. Yeah, it sucks that milions of N. Koreans might starve to death if we don't provide them food. But to focus on that is short-sighted: by helping to perpetuate the dictatorship, we are aiding and abetting in the the misery of hundreds of millions and - over time - the deaths of millions.

Sometimes I wonder if we could foment a revolution simply by dropping a million small bags of cool ranch Doritos over the countryside.

Either way, this level of oppression:

Here are the two most shattering facts about North Korea. First, when viewed by satellite photography at night, it is an area of unrelieved darkness. Barely a scintilla of light is visible even in the capital city. (See this famous photograph.) Second, a North Korean is on average six inches shorter than a South Korean. You may care to imagine how much surplus value has been wrung out of such a slave, and for how long, in order to feed and sustain the militarized crime family that completely owns both the country and its people.

...should not be allowed to exist in the 21st century. The N Korean military supposedly is powerful, but I have no doubt that it would pose little difficulty for a modern military such as the US's or South Koreans'. It would certainly come nowhere close in difficulty to the 2003 Iraq war, which took 19 days to conquer Iraq. Granted, when there is essentially no resistance, the main issue is how fast the tanks can be driven (and in N. Korea, they wouldn't have far to go). And the occupation following the invasion would present far less of a problem.

 

[aquitaine]

...should not be allowed to exist in the 21st century. The N Korean military supposedly is powerful, but I have no doubt that it would pose little difficulty for a modern military such as the US's or South Koreans'. It would certainly come nowhere close in difficulty to the 2003 Iraq war, which took 19 days to conquer Iraq. Granted, when there is essentially no resistance, the main issue is how fast the tanks can be driven (and in N. Korea, they wouldn't have far to go). And the occupation following the invasion would present far less of a problem.

IIRC they do have biological and chemical weapons, as well as hundreds of artillery tubes pointed at Souel which could be used as a delivery mechanism. The civilian casualties would be enormous on the South Korean side.

 

[CRGreathouse]

They devote a large percentage of their GDP to the military, and have more men in their army than the RoK. I wouldn't want to be the South if they decided to attack! And I don't know if the US could stomach the casualties needed to defend S. Korea.

 

[MotoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8tbzxIgxFs

North Korean kid falls asleep doing geometry homework, and dreams about killing Americans.

Seems to me a lot like the Nazi propaganda before WWII saying "The Jews are bad"

 

[russ_watters]

IIRC they do have biological and chemical weapons, as well as hundreds of artillery tubes pointed at Souel which could be used as a delivery mechanism. The civilian casualties would be enormous on the South Korean side.

The proximity of Seoul is problematic, but I have my doubts that they could actually deploy their weapons. Rumor had it that much of the USSR's military might existed only on paper.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

They devote a large percentage of their GDP to the military, and have more men in their army than the RoK. I wouldn't want to be the South if they decided to attack! And I don't know if the US could stomach the casualties needed to defend S. Korea.

Casualties on who's side? South Korea is going to have a major problem with the large amounts of artillery from the North, some or most fitted with B/C warheads. However if the North decides to put up any warplanes it will be like a Great Brittan bird hunt. The role of the birds will be played by the North Korean pilots.

 

[russ_watters]

They devote a large percentage of their GDP to the military...

Their gdp is $25 billion. South Korea's is $929 billion. Googling, S. Korea spends 2.6% of their GDP on their military, equalling N. Korea's entire GDP. Wiki says N. Korea's military budget is $6 billion.

...and have more men in their army than the RoK.

It doesn't matter how many men they have if their tanks don't start and their airplanes can't get off the ground and their 6" shorter soldiers are starving to death.

Probably worse is the command and control of such a country. Nazi Germany proved how paralyzing dictatorial control over a military [by a psychotic despot] can be.

I wouldn't want to be the South if they decided to attack! And I don't know if the US could stomach the casualties needed to defend S. Korea.

It wouldn't be the US that would have to stomach the casualties, it would only be Seoul itself. Otherwise, the war would be very easy.

 

[aquitaine]

The proximity of Seoul is problematic, but I have my doubts that they could actually deploy their weapons. Rumor had it that much of the USSR's military might existed only on paper.

The USSR was most definitely not a paper tiger. Like NK's military it had lots of obsolete equipment, but unlike NK it also had something to show for its existence such as the MiG-29 and SU-27, both of which were quite formidable in their day.


Either way I don't think it is a good idea to play russian roulette with civilians.

They devote a large percentage of their GDP to the military, and have more men in their army than the RoK. I wouldn't want to be the South if they decided to attack! And I don't know if the US could stomach the casualties needed to defend S. Korea.

They can do a lot of initial damage if they take first initiative simply because of the number of guns they have, but absolutly no staying power. Whatever initial success they MIGHT have would be very quickly undone.

Trouble is no one seems knows what to do with NK. Reunification won't happen because the economic disparity so huge. When Germany reunified, the east german economy managed to bog down the west german economy, even though the economic parity ratio was only about 1 to 3. In the case of korea, it's more like 1 to 37. On the other hand if NK collapses then everyone around it would be flooded with millions of refugees, something none of them want, including the south.

 

[Werg22]

Either way, this level of oppression: ...should not be allowed to exist in the 21st century. The N Korean military supposedly is powerful, but I have no doubt that it would pose little difficulty for a modern military such as the US's or South Koreans'. It would certainly come nowhere close in difficulty to the 2003 Iraq war, which took 19 days to conquer Iraq. Granted, when there is essentially no resistance, the main issue is how fast the tanks can be driven (and in N. Korea, they wouldn't have far to go). And the occupation following the invasion would present far less of a problem.

You really believe that? North Koreans are extremely loving of their leader. If a foreign force overthrows him, all hell will break loose there. Occupation would be a nightmare, the population will never cooperate.

 

[aquitaine]

That's probably true, the extent of the brainwashing in NK is extraordinary.

 

[zomgwtf]

I remember seeing a movie about a man from North Korea fleeing to China to get his wife medicine. It led me to think that they don't really love their country or living there that much and if they had a choice they would choose to leave.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Their gdp is $25 billion. South Korea's is $929 billion. Googling, S. Korea spends 2.6% of their GDP on their military, equalling N. Korea's entire GDP. Wiki says N. Korea's military budget is $6 billion. It doesn't matter how many men they have if their tanks don't start and their airplanes can't get off the ground and their 6" shorter soldiers are starving to death.

The US had a GDP 274 times that of Iraq and suffered an 0.3% loss of its military personnel in the Iraq war (despite a spending-per-soldier higher than any other country). If the RoK has a similar ratio, it would suffer 2.2% or 15,000 military casualties. But I don't suspect it would go that well for their military, and their civilian population would surely see hundreds of thousands of deaths.

I'm not saying that the DPRK could beat the RoK, just that a lot of people would die if they tried.

 

[russ_watters]

Either way I don't think it is a good idea to play russian roulette with civilians.

They're playing the game now. The difference would be a short term increase in the risk for a long term end to the game.

 

[russ_watters]

You really believe that? North Koreans are extremely loving of their leader. If a foreign force overthrows him, all hell will break loose there. Occupation would be a nightmare, the population will never cooperate.

Like the USSR, N. Korea's brainwash-type control of their people is based mostly on the farce that their system is superior. And as much as anything, what brought down the USSR was the people finding out that it really was a farce.

Even the racist element is based largely on farce: Can you imagine what North Koreans would think, seeing gigantic S.Korean and American soldiers marching in their streets? The sham that is their brainwashed beliefs would come tumbling down.

I remember seeing a movie about a man from North Korea fleeing to China to get his wife medicine. It led me to think that they don't really love their country or living there that much and if they had a choice they would choose to leave.

I agree. People don't have to deny reality when they don't even know what reality is. But faced with such stark choices or high-contrast information of such high importance, people don't choose the illusion.

 

[CRGreathouse]

They're playing the game now. The difference would be a short term increase in the risk for a long term end to the game.

Indeed. Not an obvious, or an easy, decision.

 

[russ_watters]

Indeed. Not an obvious, or an easy, decision.

Yes - and I never intended to imply it is an easy choice. However, what I do know for sure is that the "fight" option got a lot harder a few years ago when they [probably] tested a nuke and keeps getting harder as they develop those capabilities. This is why, IMO, we need to do everything in our power to prevent such countries (see: Iran) from getting nukes.

 

[Proton Soup]

i knew a SK student years ago in grad school. and he took some offense to my referring to his country as "south" korea. to him it is korea. they want to reunite with the north. they've already got paper governments established for all the northern communities if and when that happens.

and i think you've got to remember, these people in the north are literally family to them. this influences the way that both SK and the US deals with the NKs. they may be perfectly willing to wait out KJI's natural death to look for an opening for reunification, rather than trying to kill them or starve them out (something which hasn't worked, btw).

 

[CRGreathouse]

I can only agree with the last two posts; I have nothing to add.

 

[mheslep]

This is why, IMO, we need to do everything in our power to prevent such countries (see: Iran) from getting nukes.

Probably a topic for another thread, but interestingly the Secretary of Defense agrees with you in that he's concerned the US has no military back up plan for Iran.

[The US] does not have an effective long-range policy for dealing with Iran's steady progress toward nuclear capability.

That is a remarkable [STRIKE]public[/STRIKE] statement for a sitting SecDef.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/world/middleeast/18iran.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/04/20/2010-04-20_gates_nuclear_bomb.html

 

[aquitaine]

Like the USSR, N. Korea's brainwash-type control of their people is based mostly on the farce that their system is superior. And as much as anything, what brought down the USSR was the people finding out that it really was a farce.

That's true to a point, but in NK they take cult of personality to a new level. By the time the USSR collapsed in the 80's they had no "divine great leader" anymore, but in NK it is still going strong. After all, NK has the only dead president still serving in office, divinely watching over the North Korean people.

 

[mheslep]

Like the USSR, N. Korea's brainwash-type control of their people is based mostly on the farce that their system is superior. And as much as anything, what brought down the USSR was the people finding out that it really was a farce.

Even the racist element is based largely on farce: Can you imagine what North Koreans would think, seeing gigantic S.Korean and American soldiers marching in their streets? The sham that is their brainwashed beliefs would come tumbling down. I agree. People don't have to deny reality when they don't even know what reality is. But faced with such stark choices or high-contrast information of such high importance, people don't choose the illusion.

Maybe over the longer term this will be the case, but I don't think history bares out this view that cults can be readily shaken out of their delusions by encountering reality. See Imperial Japan. The US showed up at the small island of Okinawa in '45 with more than 1100 ships and complete air superiority. Yet the Nipponese soldiers fought to nearly the last man and the civilians lined up to throw themselves off cliffs. Prior to the A-bomb attacks, B-29s seemingly blacked out the sky over Japanese cities during conventional bombings, yet there were no mass cries to throw in the towel.

 

[jmason52]

Not to be ugly, but do any of you guys study history? War with N Korea isn't the issue; the intercession of China is. Chinese entry into the Korean Conflict in 1951 is the only thing that saved the North then. China is extremely protective of their self proclaimed hegemony of Asia and would again interpose their forces in any incident that threatened that belief. Thats the reason Dear Leader acts the constant international fool - he has the might of China's army protecting his backside.

 

[mheslep]

Not to be ugly, but do any of you guys study history? War with N Korea isn't the issue; the intercession of China is. Chinese entry into the Korean Conflict in 1951 is the only thing that saved the North then. China is extremely protective of their self proclaimed hegemony of Asia and would again interpose their forces in any incident that threatened that belief. Thats the reason Dear Leader acts the constant international fool - he has the might of China's army protecting his backside.

I don't know that addresses the topic of this thread. Regarding the history: the mass murderer Mao Zedong was 'China' in 1950; China today is a very different creature. China had little or nothing to do with the original NK invasion of the South. China didn't intervene until five months after the start of the conflict.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Not to be ugly, but do any of you guys study history?

I might well turn that around and ask if you've been in a hole for the last twenty years. That's a rather outdated view of the Korean Peninsula.

 

[aquitaine]

Maybe over the longer term this will be the case, but I don't think history bares out this view that cults can be readily shaken out of their delusions by encountering reality. See Imperial Japan. The US showed up at the small island of Okinawa in '45 with more than 1100 ships and complete air superiority. Yet the Nipponese soldiers fought to nearly the last man and the civilians lined up to throw themselves off cliffs. Prior to the A-bomb attacks, B-29s seemingly blacked out the sky over Japanese cities during conventional bombings, yet there were no mass cries to throw in the towel.

In the case of Japan it very much was a product of their traditional culture. Maybe that's also true to some extent in North Korea.

 

[MotoH]

South Korea Says Torpedo Likely Cause of Warship Sinking

South Korea's defense minister says a torpedo was the likely cause of an explosion that sank a warship near the tense border with North Korea last month.

Defense Minister Kim Tae-young told reporters Sunday that he believes a bubble jet effect caused by a heavy torpedo is the most likely cause of the disaster. A bubble jet is a powerful shock wave and high-pressure gas bubble resulting from an explosive device detonating beneath a vessel.

Kim was also quoted by the French news agency as saying "various other possibilities are also under review."

http://www.defencetalk.com/south-korea-says-torpedo-likely-cause-of-warship-sinking-25952/"

North Korea's response:

North Korea on Saturday warned it was prepared to use nuclear weapons if it was invaded by the United States and South Korea.

The official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) carried the remarks by the North’s Joint Chief, General Ri Yong-Ho, during a national meeting on the eve of the birthday of the communist country’s armed forces.

‘The revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK (North Korea) are fully ready to frustrate any provocation of the aggressors at a single blow,’ Ri said.

‘They will mobilise all means including the nuclear deterrent... should the US imperialists and the south Korean puppet warmongers dare intrude into the inviolable sky, land and seas of the DPRK even 0.001mm,’ he said.

http://khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle09.asp?xfile=data/international/2010/April/international_April1326.xml&section=international"



Ohhh North Korea, you torpedo a ship with 100+ sailors on board, and then warn to use your "nuclear" weapons against the US and SK if they attack.