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Loren Booda
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We can name many negative consequences from greed upon our global financial system. What, however, would you say is the most positive economic effect of altruism worldwide?
Loren Booda said:We can name many negative consequences from greed upon our global financial system. What, however, would you say is the most positive economic effect of altruism worldwide?
Philosoraptor said:I would look up some of the research on cultural evolution (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution-cultural/). One of the interesting things to note is that a population with all altruists can quickly be invaded and destroyed by 'defectors', which in this case are non-altruists.
If altruists follow the definition noted above by BenVitale, they will lose fitness over time by expending their resources to help others. True, this may be compensated for by others sacrificing some of their own fitness, but imagine a situation in which one defector appears, who does not sacrifice any of his own. He will both benefit from the sacrifice of others' fitness to help him, and not lose any of his own helping others. Any population of defectors will quickly multiply in proportion of the population (think 'nice guys finish last'!). So, while a world of altruists might be a better one in some way or another--and I still think this is a big 'might'--it would not be very stable!
Philosoraptor said:If altruists follow the definition noted above by BenVitale, they will lose fitness over time by expending their resources to help others. True, this may be compensated for by others sacrificing some of their own fitness, but imagine a situation in which one defector appears, who does not sacrifice any of his own. He will both benefit from the sacrifice of others' fitness to help him, and not lose any of his own helping others. Any population of defectors will quickly multiply in proportion of the population (think 'nice guys finish last'!). So, while a world of altruists might be a better one in some way or another--and I still think this is a big 'might'--it would not be very stable!
CRGreathouse said:What about near-altruists, who collectively punish defectors?
CRGreathouse said:What about near-altruists, who collectively punish defectors?
Yeah, self-sacrifice. It's easier if others do it ... It is hard to give up some privileges for the collective good ... We like to protect our immediate self-interest ... A Homo economicus would not sacrifice any thing that he/she values. Luckily, we don't live in a world populated by Homo economicus.
This reminds me of the Prisoner's dilemma
because while it is comforting to think that we could live in a world of altruists ... but Game theory tells me that people will defect or cooperate in the beginning to defect at some point.
Philosoraptor said:I think that's the key: you have to have punishers. But even then, those individuals are going to lose some fitness by punishing, and others (peaceniks, let's call them) have an incentive to free ride and get all the benefits of the punishers without any of the expenses of being one of them. How these types don't take over the population is kind of mysterious, and you get into some really esoteric stuff on population equilibria, which is really complicated and which I don't know enough about to explain, I'm afraid!
DanP said:Dictatorial state.
Philosoraptor said:Sorry about all the Game Theory rambling, I just love the stuff so much!
CRGreathouse said:If the utility loss for punishing is low enough, I don't think this would be much of a problem. I think humans, in general, display this sort of behavior frequently.
No worries! I'm a big fan of Game theory ... I didn't elaborate too much for fear this thread would turn cold.
Several weeks ago, I asked the moderators whether they would create a sub-forum for Game theory. The answer came back, "No."
Now, I know that you're a fan of Game theory. That's cool!
Do you want another society in which "defectors" are punished ?CRGreathouse said:Huh?
DanP said:Do you want another society in which "defectors" are punished ?
What will you punish me for ? For not thinking like you ? For wanting the best for my family and my kids , and hence I go competitive ?
Such a state would spiral down fast into a dictatorship.
Somebody here says that the "punishers" would loose fitness by punishing. No, they wouldn't. They would become a key mechanism of repression, and they would be corrupted quite fast.
IMO, this altruistic society with punishers is a form of communist dystopia. You don't want anyone to punish "defectors". Last time when somebody tried this, we got millions dead, imprisoned, years of fear, and no liberty.
Philosoraptor said:So you don't want people who cheat to be punished? You don't want criminals to go to jail?
Punishing, as it's usually understood, is meant to prevent people from gaming the system, so to speak. I don't think it's typically understood as a means of thought control.
DanP said:This is what communism did. Punish anyone who didnt wanted to be "equal' and "altruist".
Altruism is unselfish concern for others. It is voluntary. You can't encapsulate it in a legal system. Once you do that and say "ppl who are not "altruist" (as define in the code of law) will be punished you have nothing. You just enforced through fear of legal repercussion and your police force what you perceive as altruism. It's not altruism anymore. It a ****ing policy at left end of the spectrum which enforces me, who produce more, to be "altruist" with the looser who can't produce much.
Like I said, this is a a pathway to a variant of a communist dystopia.
DanP said:Do you want another society in which "defectors" are punished ?
What will you punish me for ? For not thinking like you ? For wanting the best for my family and my kids , and hence I go competitive ?
Such a state would spiral down fast into a dictatorship.
Philosoraptor said:If that's true, then, how do you maintain a stable society? How do you keep defectors in check, or prevent them from taking over the population?
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