- #36
Dmitry67
- 2,567
- 1
Yes, sorry for the confusion :)
No problem. It's a common name (in Sweden). By the way, I didn't mean to sound upset about it. (I'm not).Fra said:Sorry for the confusion here :) My actual first name is Fredrik which is the simple reason I have it as my sig.
You just made me picture myself in spandex and a cape...it wasn't pretty.Fra said:Not to mention that user=Fredrik is a superhero,...
Dmitry67 said:1
An observer is defined based on the question asked.
"I am going to see a dead or alive cat?" defines YOU as an observer, and a CAT
The very need for a Decoherence starts from the question. You can not ask any question bout physics without already making some sorts of decompositions - into you, cat, moon, earth, accelerator etc.
2
Correct, we get some results for the given basis. But this basis is not special in any way. We can chose any other basis based on our needs.
3
But of course it gives! It is like in CI where wavefunction is just a 'knowledge' so different observers can get different values for all operators. In the example with Wigners friend, there are different results: for multiple copies of the already-decoherenced observer and for the distant not-decoherenced observer.
4
You can't talk about MWI ignoring the branches.
As events in different branches are different then of course they MUST have different physics, and of course before an observer is decoherenced with an observable his pre-calculated (based on his previous knowledge) values of p, r etc should not agree with the values observed by the decoherenced observer!
However note that p, r are not observables until you get decoherenced with a system. If I pre-calculate them in advance based on the system setup (the system itself can be in Andromeda) is a one thing, but MEASURE a position (hence beging decoherenced = forced to 'chose' one branch) is another thing.
Fredrik said:You just made me picture myself in spandex and a cape...it wasn't pretty.
Ilja said:1
That's also not the standard understanding of MWI. Instead, MWI people have tried a lot to get some preferred basis (this problem is known as the preferred basis problem, and they were very happy finding that decoherence can give them a preferred basis. Unfortunately, it cannot give a preferred basis, because it depends on the decomposition into systems.
2
The question is not if different observers see different things. Different physics means that for the same experiment, observed by the same observer, we obtain different statistics of measurement results. That means different Born rule distributions.
3
I disagree. The observables are (and have to be) well-defined without decoherence - they are self-adjoint operators, and such self-adjoint operators are defined once the Hilbert space is defined. In particular, the Hamilton operator is well-defined without any decoherence.
Dmitry67 said:1,2
Well, may be I am really believe in a slightly different flavor or MWI?
For me it was absolutely obvious that you can't discuss 'what X is observing' without using X as 'preferred basis'. And you can't use any other basis if you are discussing X's impressions of the world. Hence your argument is valid for those whole believe in some 'preferred basis' (for me it is a nonsense) but in my flavor of MWI there is no paradox, because you are not free in chosing the basis.
Wiki article states that the choice of basis is arbitrary. Do you have any links about 'how standard MWI defines a preferred basis'?
This is what was called an observable in good old QM which did not include measurement. But you can't 'observe' it, it is just a mathematical operatior. You can observe an arrow of a voltmeter. The only true observables are the macroscopic events. Only thermodynamically irreversible events can be remembered (as memory is irreversible by definition) and hence be a part of your consciousness, hence, a particle must be irreversibly absorbed in order to say something about p, r etc.
That choice of words makes the problem with that scheme pretty clear. A "decomposition of the universe" is a way to express the Hilbert space of states of the universe as a tensor product: [itex]\mathcal H=\mathcal H_1\otimes\mathcal H_2[/itex]. But the "observer" here is the physical system with Hilbert space [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex]. So to say that the observer defines the decomposition is essentially the same thing as saying that [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex] defines [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex], and that doesn't really say anything.Ilja said:The main problem with your scheme - an observer defining a decomposition of the universe,
Ilja said:1
If you don't want a preferred basis, you end up with (in)consistent histories, which is even worse, because it is a rejection of classical logic without necessity.
2
The main problem with your scheme - an observer defining a decomposition of the universe, and, then, consequently a preferred basis by decoherence - is that no such standard decomposition exists, because there are states of the universe without me, but no states of a decomposition of the universe without a state of all the subsystems.
3
I disagree that only decoherence-preferred observables are observable. There may be operators which are not observable - those with macroscopic superpositions as eigenstates. But in pure quantum theory we can measure lot's of different operators, for sufficiently small ones you can even measure every operator, not only the decoherence-preferred ones (as far as this notion makes sense for small pure quantum systems), because decoherence needs some time, is only an approximate mechanism.
Fredrik said:That choice of words makes the problem with that scheme pretty clear. A "decomposition of the universe" is a way to express the Hilbert space of states of the universe as a tensor product: [itex]\mathcal H=\mathcal H_1\otimes\mathcal H_2[/itex]. But the "observer" here is the physical system with Hilbert space [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex]. So to say that the observer defines the decomposition is essentially the same thing as saying that [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex] defines [itex]\mathcal H_2[/itex], and that doesn't really say anything.
Dmitry67 said:Again, it is possible (and very likely) that in act different observers do not agree on what you call an 'observables', and even on the number of the elementary particles, but they Do agree on the microscopic events. Unruh effect is a good example
in the Universe without YOU there is no need to calculate a decoherence in some basis at all: you can be satisfied with a unitary evolution of the 'universe' wavefunction.
Note the words I highlighted
So, you do not get the values of these 'observables' directly.
At first, you must decoherence your system (or a particle) with some macroscopic device, right?
Count Iblis said:I don't understand the arguments about decoherence being necessary to define observers. Suppose you have a quantum computer that can implement internal observers. I.e. observers are computer programs that can observe their virtual world. Then one can always project out the sectors of the individual programs to compute the probabilities of what they observe.
Here you do have a definiton of each program in some standard basis and you can argue that you could map arbitrary states to computational states of any program. This problem also exist in purely classical models. You can always invent a mapping from the states of one physical system (say a gas) to another system (say a brain). Then the reason why a gas in a container is not conscious is presumably because what matters is the program the brain is running. The mapping from the gas to the brain would contain all the nontrivial aspects of that program.
This then suggests that observers would always have to be defined as algorithms.
Dmitry67 said:Yes, I have to admit that everything fuzzy, recursive and observer-dependent. The way Fra likes it :)
Why I am still optimistic?
In MWI the only and ultimate reality is the global wavefunction. And our 'sense of reality' is just an illusion. There is no classical behavior at all, it is one of the biggest illusions we have.
For that reason I do not really care about the problem with the 'preferred basis', because basis and decoherence are not needed to define physical laws or reality - they are just needed to explain the illusion a particular frog has.
UnknownTheolog said:Yes, I have to admit that everything fuzzy.
Why I am still optimistic?
In religion the only and ultimate reality is God. And our 'sense of reality' is just an illusion. There is no classical behavior at all, it is one of the biggest illusions we have.
For that reason I do not really care about the problem with human reality, because human reality is not needed to define Gods laws or Gods reality - they are just needed to explain the illusion a particular frog has.
For that very reason I am sure that all frogs impressions are consistent - because frogs impression is just a mapping of the bird's view using some basis.
And when we map the same thing we always get the consistent partial views. To repeat, decoherence does not explain the reality, it explains an illusion
Even may be MWI requires a definition of an observer and may be even consiousness to explain all the observations, it is much much better then CI because CI uses these high level things (like 'knowledge of an observer') to explain the microscopic world, while MWI uses it to explain only high level things, so it might require a definition of consciousness to explain, what we 'feel', but we don't need all that stuff in the microscopic world.
Ilja said:The shadows on the wall seen by Plato's prisoners are real shadows. Because they follow from the really existing objects, the really existing source of light, and the really existing wall. Naming them illusion explains nothing. An explanation has to describe how the illusion emerges, in a logically consistent way.
Dmitry67 said:BTW, returning to the 'observables' which are not obserables at all: can you see elementary particles with your naked eye? You do you use some devices to get values of these 'observables'?
Ilja said:I don't - I'm a pure theorists. Your point being? Of course one has to use devices. My argument was that for pure quantum systems one can use very different devices measuring very different observables, in simple cases all of them. Without any contradiction with decoherence.
Dmitry67 said:My point is that you can't observe them. You can read some numbers from your device. Hence you never get the true value of your 'observable', but just a result of a decoherence of a particle or other QM system with a measurement device. Again, you can never get values of p, r DIRECTLY.
Dmitry67 said:My point isthat in your article you have proven the tautology (you call it a "different physics"). The culmination of your proof is the point what you say that p, r have different values based on the basis, so it mean "different physics". But it is predicted by MWI!
1. In Wigners friend experiment, p,r of the cat is different in the basis of the Wigner and in the basis of his friend inside the box. This is how this experiment is explained in MWI
2. Different 'branches' of the same observer might have different values of 'observables', for example, the same observer have have different values for the cat (dead and alive version/branch).
Dmitry67 said:I am trying to understand, are you talking about 'different laws' relative to different decoherence basis or relative to the different 'branches'?
Different basis and branches form 2 levels of hierarchy: we can have different decoherence basis and for each basis we can have different branches. For example, in Wigners friend experiment we have:
*** Before the box is opened:
1. Wigners friend basis
1.1 Wigners friend branch - observing a dead cat
1.1 Wigners friend branch - observing a cat which is alive
2. Wigner's basis (not decoherenced yet with the inside of the box)
*** After the box is opened:
1. Wigners friend basis
1.1 Wigners friend branch - observing a dead cat
1.1 Wigners friend branch - observing a cat which is alive
2. Wigner's basis
2.1 (in sync with 1.1) Dead cat
2.2 (in sync with 1.2) Alive cat
cstromeyer said:Hi, this paper by S. Dolev and A.C. Elitzur shows that the results of their experiment are not compatible with a "collapse" (or "wave guide" interpretation of QM such as Bohmian mechanics) on pages 3-4:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0102109
First, again, there is no difference between "Wigner's basis" and "Wigner's friends basis". The preferred basis is for everything, and it is uniquely defined given a decomposition of the whole universe into different subsystems. Now, in Wigner's case we have three different subsystems - Wigner, his friend, and the rest of the world - and the decomposition into these three subsystems is the same, therefore the preferred decoherence basis is the same.
cstromeyer said:Ilja, the experiment shows that the wavefunction in QM is non-sequential and non-causal. By definition, Bohmian mechanics is a causal interpretation. Please see:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-bohm/
cstromeyer said:Ilja, the experiment contradicts "collapse" interpretations of QM which are supposed to be equivalent to Bohmian mechanics.
I agree with you that Bohmian mechanics is compatible with non-locality, but the experiment shows that the wavefunction of QM is also non-sequential and thus non-causal.
However, the work of Professor Joseph Eberly and colleagues, e.g., see his article in the journal Science, shows that quantum entanglement can suddenly die. One might try to argue that this sudden death might restore some concept of 'causality'.
Ilja said:First, again, there is no difference between "Wigner's basis" and "Wigner's friends basis". The preferred basis is for everything
Dmitry67 said:No, no, this is much much worse hten you think.
As I said before, for any observer the only valid choice of basis is his own basis. Before box is opened, the world for Wigner and his friends is different.
And even worse, decomposition into systems is made by some observer, hence, it is observer (and basis-) dependent.
And even worse, an observer itself is not clearly defined.
And even worse, there are some branches from, let's call them 'early forks', where Wigner and his Friend did not decide to make an experiment, or where they were not friends, or Earth did not exist. So all we are talking about is relative to some branch.
And even worse (I don't know why it is not stressed) - basis itself must be redefined every time after any macroscopic event, after any act of decoherence. You cant, for example, talk about 'how sad Friend tells Wigner that cat is dead', using the old Friend's basis before he didnot knew cat's fate, because in the old basis he was in a superposition to both outcomes, which is not consistent with his own updated basis (I know that cat is dead/alive).
So you can't as you like to say 'I don't care about branches', because 1 the initial branch, 2 the decomposition of the universe into systems, 3 the definition of what is an observer are branch-dependent. And 2 and 3 are dynamic.