Power Comparison: 5 Parts Air v 800 PSI w/ Diesel

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on comparing the power output and efficiency of two engine configurations: one using 5 parts air at 400 psi compression and the other using 1 part air at 800 psi compression. The engines have different bore and stroke dimensions, and the discussion explores theoretical aspects of internal combustion engine performance, including thermal efficiency and energy calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant poses a question about which engine configuration would yield more power and efficiency, given the specified parameters.
  • Another participant provides a formula for calculating compression ratio and thermal efficiency, concluding that Engine 2 is more efficient based on their calculations.
  • There is a calculation presented that suggests Engine 1 could produce 13 times more power than Engine 2, based on thermal efficiency and air volume assumptions.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the term "parts of air," seeking clarification on its meaning in the context of engine displacement and performance metrics.
  • One participant notes that the volume of air drawn in is typically related to the engine's displacement, indicating that Engine 2 has three times the displacement of Engine 1.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of "parts of air" and its implications for engine performance. While some calculations suggest a clear advantage for Engine 1 in terms of power, others emphasize the efficiency of Engine 2, leading to an unresolved discussion regarding the overall comparison.

Contextual Notes

There are uncertainties regarding the definitions of "parts of air" and how it relates to engine displacement and performance. The discussion includes assumptions about engine operation that may not be universally agreed upon.

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What is better for power? 5 parts air at 400 psi compression 10 inch bore by 30 inch stroke compared to 800 psi compression with 1 part air with 10 inch bore with 10 inch stroke? Same air fuel ratio in both With diesel? Which will be more power and which will be more efficient? And why?
 
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Compression ratio:
r = \left(\frac{P}{P_0}\right)^\frac{1}{1.4}
where P_0 = 14.7 psi.

Engine 1 (P = 400 psi): r = 10.59.
Engine 2 (P = 800 psi): r = 17.37.

Diesel cycle thermal efficiency:

bfe6abacc1fdef67d1fc3dfcc72448eb.png


If we assume \alpha = 2 (cut-off ratio) and \gamma= 1.4, then:
\eta_{th} = 1 - \frac{1.17}{r^{0.4}}
Engine 1: \eta_{th} = 0.544.
Engine 2: \eta_{th} = 0.626.

Engine 2 is more efficient.

Air volume per cycle (at atmospheric pressure):
[Here, I'm not sure what you mean by «5 parts air» and «1 part air»; I'm assuming you mean one engine's rpm is 5X faster than the other one or one has 5 cylinders and the other one has 1 cylinder]
V \propto ND^2S
and the energy per cycle is:
E \propto \eta_{th}V
\frac{E_1}{E_2} = \frac{\left(\eta_{th}ND^2S\right)_1}{\left(\eta_{th}ND^2S\right)_2} = \frac{0.544 \times 5 \times 10^2 \times 30}{0.626 \times 1 \times 10^2 \times 10} = 13
Engine 1 should produce 13 times more power than engine 2.
 
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jack action said:
Compression ratio:
r = \left(\frac{P}{P_0}\right)^\frac{1}{1.4}
where P_0 = 14.7 psi.

Engine 1 (P = 400 psi): r = 10.59.
Engine 2 (P = 800 psi): r = 17.37.

Diesel cycle thermal efficiency:

bfe6abacc1fdef67d1fc3dfcc72448eb.png


If we assume \alpha = 2 (cut-off ratio) and \gamma= 1.4, then:
\eta_{th} = 1 - \frac{1.17}{r^{0.4}}
Engine 1: \eta_{th} = 0.544.
Engine 2: \eta_{th} = 0.626.

Engine 2 is more efficient.

Air volume per cycle (at atmospheric pressure):
[Here, I'm not sure what you mean by «5 parts air» and «1 part air»; I'm assuming you mean one engine's rpm is 5X faster than the other one or one has 5 cylinders and the other one has 1 cylinder]
V \propto ND^2S
and the energy per cycle is:
E \propto \eta_{th}V
\frac{E_1}{E_2} = \frac{\left(\eta_{th}ND^2S\right)_1}{\left(\eta_{th}ND^2S\right)_2} = \frac{0.544 \times 5 \times 10^2 \times 30}{0.626 \times 1 \times 10^2 \times 10} = 13
Engine 1 should produce 13 times more power than engine 2.
By parts of air i mean volume of air.
 
I still don't understand what you mean with that.. Volume has specific units, so giving us "parts of air" when you also mention bore, stroke, and compression pressure is all a bit confusing.
 
+1

The volume of air drawn in is usually roughly equal to the displacement of the engine. Engine 2 has three times the displacement of Engine 1.
 

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