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I have a question, probably a controversial one:

is there any difference between the Formula- P= V*I and P= I*V?

is there any technical difference between the two expressions?

thank you.

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- #1

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I have a question, probably a controversial one:

is there any difference between the Formula- P= V*I and P= I*V?

is there any technical difference between the two expressions?

thank you.

- #2

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HELLO,

I have a question, probably a controversial one:

is there any difference between the Formula- P= V*I and P= I*V?

is there any technical difference between the two expressions?

thank you.

It is like 2*3=6 or 3*2=6

both are same

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in my academic days, I was taught both are not the same in a certain sense,

Power, P, was always V.Icosø, and never I.Vcosø.

Power, P, was always V.Icosø, and never I.Vcosø.

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sophiecentaur

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So you can write it either way round.

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I was thing P= V*I as numeric

- #6

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Can you explain again?afaik, a Dot vector product is commutative. The cos of the angle between the vectors is the same whichever one you are measuring relative to: Cos(x) = Cos (-x).

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Can you explain what you said?

- #8

sophiecentaur

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IF you are talking about DC then VI is exactly the same as IV because multiplication is commutative (2X3 is the same as 3X2). If you are talking about AC then you need a vector product between Volts and Current. The Power is given by the Dot Product (not just the RMS Volts times the RMS Current). But that is also commutative so either way round is ok there too.Can you explain again?

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Thanks for explaining who to do this?If you are talking about AC then you need a vector product between Volts and Current.

i was not aware as i usually work with DC.

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sophiecentaur

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I know about power factor lag and lead of current or voltage due to presence of extra L or C load.

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OK thanks Ene and Sophiecentaur, but will I be right to contribute from this point of view:

Mathematically the commutative product of Vector proves the product V.I to be equivalent to I.V

but in AC circuits for example, the mean power consumed by a circuit is given by the product of V and that of the CURRENT COMPONENT which is in phase with V, Voltage.

I assume that the fact of possibility that current can be resolved into two components- Isinø and IcosØ- is key in explaining the expressions V.IcosØ and I.VcosØ

the factor to be envisioned here is, cosØ, which is the power factor of the circuit.

current 'chases' voltage, I.e, it always tries to make up a perfect Power (constantly wants to achieve cos0°) hence IcosØ...

so will I be right to attribute I, current, as the variable component in the expression?

Mathematically the commutative product of Vector proves the product V.I to be equivalent to I.V

but in AC circuits for example, the mean power consumed by a circuit is given by the product of V and that of the CURRENT COMPONENT which is in phase with V, Voltage.

I assume that the fact of possibility that current can be resolved into two components- Isinø and IcosØ- is key in explaining the expressions V.IcosØ and I.VcosØ

the factor to be envisioned here is, cosØ, which is the power factor of the circuit.

current 'chases' voltage, I.e, it always tries to make up a perfect Power (constantly wants to achieve cos0°) hence IcosØ...

so will I be right to attribute I, current, as the variable component in the expression?

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- #14

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is not a clear one, today. Once, a vector was a real thing as force [F] or field [E electric or H,B magnetic] intensity, or current density [J] or else. After this a phasor-which represents on a paper a wave- it turned to be a "vector”. No vector product [cross product] it could be done with V or I or other such "vectors”. However, a scalar [dot] product it could be meaningful.

Now, extending the notion, a column of a matrix is named "a vector”. Also, a column of a library

stand... How this "vector" could present gradient , divergence or curl?

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I'm sorry I don't understand what you stated. Maybe you should give a different perspective to it.

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jim hardy

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If all three variables (V I and cosø) are just numbers then it doesn't matter in what order you write them. That's grade school algebra.in my academic days, I was taught both are not the same in a certain sense,

Power, P, was always V.Icosø, and never I.Vcosø.

If in your prior training ø changes sign depending on which variable you take ,V or I, as starting point for the angle then Sophie's post #4 answers your question for power. But you'll have to pay attention to sign when calculating VARs, VIsinø .

Yes, draw your phasor triangle and apply Pythagoras.I assume that the fact of possibility that current can be resolved into two components- Isinø and IcosØ- is key in explaining the expressions V.IcosØ and I.VcosØ

I dont understand. Those verbs apply to the observer not to the inanimate charge in motion.current'chases'voltage, I.e, it alwaystries to makeup a perfect Power (constantlywantsto achieve cos0°) hence IcosØ...

We cannot know what you have in mind. V, I and ∅ are all variables.so will I be right to attribute I, current, as thevariablecomponent in the expression?

Can you draw a phasor diagram in Paint , label the variable(s) and upload it with button in lower right ?

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please oblige my curiosity and response, not intending labor the point.

ok, what I'm tryingvto express is stated here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_and_lagging_current

voltage is generated and this gives rise to a resultant current that is either in phase, lead or lag. because of the above conditions (whereby current is in phase, lead or lag), the expression Icos∅ obtains.

I understand that the three components V, I and cosØ exist as variables but I was of the opinion that cosØ represents the cosine of the angle by which Current departs or conforms with the Voltage phase

sorry if I'm not making much meaning here...

but does the cosine law of vectors have an impact on the expression?

https://www.math.washington.edu/~king/coursedir/m445w04/notes/vector/dotproduct.html

also this link, scroll downwards

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_cosines

ok, what I'm tryingvto express is stated here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_and_lagging_current

voltage is generated and this gives rise to a resultant current that is either in phase, lead or lag. because of the above conditions (whereby current is in phase, lead or lag), the expression Icos∅ obtains.

I understand that the three components V, I and cosØ exist as variables but I was of the opinion that cosØ represents the cosine of the angle by which Current departs or conforms with the Voltage phase

sorry if I'm not making much meaning here...

but does the cosine law of vectors have an impact on the expression?

https://www.math.washington.edu/~king/coursedir/m445w04/notes/vector/dotproduct.html

also this link, scroll downwards

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_cosines

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but you all say the expression I.VcosØ is correct and technically same (from electricity viewpoint) as v.icos∅, then I must accept it.

many thanks

many thanks

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jim hardy

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Yes, this time you have stated that very clearly, i understand what you meant.I understand that the three components V, I and cosØ exist as variables but I was of the opinion that cosØ represents the cosine of the angle by which Current departs or conforms with the Voltage phase

No apology necessary; congratulations on your improved clarity.sorry if I'm not making much meaning here...

https://www.math.washington.edu/~king/coursedir/m445w04/notes/vector/dotproduct.htmlbut does the cosine law of vectors have an impact on the expression?

i guess i don't understand the question.

Trigonometry applies to all triangles, be they phasors or vectors or real geometric shapes like land surveys.

Much of learning is just coming to believe what you already know. One reassures himself by working out with pencil and paper enough examples that the steps become automatic.

Make up three numbers and assign them to A B and cosAOB.

Let me call cosAOB by "C" so it's easier for me to type

There are only two possible sequences because i can repeat the sequence and start anyplace in it.

ABCABCABC is same sequence as BCABCABCA which is same as CABCABCAB just i started at a different place.

Likewise

ACBACBACB is same sequence as CBACBACBA which is same as BACBACBAC ...

does A X B X C equal A X C X B ?

You knew that all along .

old jim

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got that right on old Jim, thanks...

- #21

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If we take only three dimensions and these coordinates are mutually perpendicular [ each on other]

then the dot product of two vectors

V1=X1

is the sum of the product of same coordinate

[x1*x2+y1*y2+z1*z2) and represents a scalar [a number].

The result of dot product of two phasor-vectors it is another phasor.

V*I*=(Vre+jVim)*(Ire-jIim)=(Vre*Ire+Vim*Iim)+j(-Vre*Iim-Vim*Ire)=S=P-jQ

here I*=I conjugate.

Vre*Ire+Vim*Iim=V*Ire if V is the origin of the angles since Vim=0.

Ire=I*cos(V,I) [I it is the absolute value of I]. I=SQRT(Ire^2+Iim^2)

P=V*I*cos(V,I) [V=Vre]

As one can see no V* it could be employed.

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