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Precognition and Predetermination

  1. Dec 20, 2003 #1
    First, how are precognition and predetermination diffent? Is precognition possible by human beings? Tell me what you think.
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 20, 2003 #2
    And they are exactly?
  4. Dec 21, 2003 #3
    To answer the first question...

    Dictionary.com has all the answers...

    Precognition is knowledge of something in advance of its occurrence by extrasensory perception; clairvoyance.

    Predetermination is the the doctrine that God(s) has foreordained every event throughout eternity. It is essentially equivelant to Fatalism (which mean that all events are predetermined in advance - usually be a deity or deities - for all time and human beings are powerless to change them).

    Precognition and Predeterminism are in absolutely no way synonomous (in the same way, Physics is in no way synonomous to Ponies), that is the difference between the two.

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2003
  5. Dec 21, 2003 #4
    Why don't you think it is i possible?
  6. Dec 21, 2003 #5
    Why do you ask the question here? Ask yourself the question just once and you will have your answer. This I give you my word. If you understand this response you will have your own visions, be careful what you ask for.
  7. Dec 21, 2003 #6
    Yes, im sure you've all experienced Deja Vue, i experience it all the time its just that only after it has actually happened do i realise its deja vue. Some people may be able to realise what they saw is going to happen before it happens.

    That makes sod all sense to me.
  8. Dec 21, 2003 #7
    We have all had Deja Vue. For me I have personally seen many things ahead of time and told people, many people before they happen. These things range from disasters to every day life. It began 10 years ago. I have also seen a vision concerning my visions and this particular one will come to pass. I do not know when or exactly how, but it it will.
  9. Dec 22, 2003 #8
    1. There are no mechanisms that would allow a human to experience a precognitive episode

    2. Precognition is supernatural, there is not a single instance where precognition has been demonstrated to be true outside of anecdotal evidence (while anecdotes are often good to establish a point, they rarely substitute as scientific evidence).

    3. In being supernatural, Precognition is demonstratably false in scientific environments. (In the same way, rolling a ball across a flat surface, and then proclaiming that it will fly up at the ceiling is also demonstratably false.)

    Take a second to understand what "precognition" really is. Well, I'll give you a few things you should take into account:

    There are 6 billion people who fall asleep and have dreams, is it at all remarkable that out of those 6 billion dreams, a few of them might come turn out to be true.

    People have a tendency to find "connections" between inherently unrelated events. This is called the Anthropic Principle. Its the reason why we can see bunnies in the clouds (of course the real reason the cloud looks like a bunny is due to uneven distribution of a heat and expansion of the cloud, there is no "order" in the cloud). Here is an example of finding "connections" between unrelated events:
    I used to make 100s of predictions a day. The reason why is because of an unusually heightened sense of paranoia. I would find myself saying outloud "that was deliberate". The reason why is because throughout the day, I would have hundreds of thoughts that might sound a bit like "I think so-and-so would look real nice if she put her hair up in a ponytail" (that just an example). Then, perhaps the next day, the gal I was thinking of would be wearing her hair in a ponytail. I think that such an act was "deliberate" in that she put her hair in a ponytail to subtlely let me know that she was reading my mind. Keep in mind, I never "predicted" anything, I just related the events when I had been reminded of a previous thought in one way or another. This would happen literally dozens of times a day. That is a classic example of "finding 'connections' between unrelated events".

    In the instance of dreams, dont think twice about them. Dreams have absolutely no significance in interpreting the world around you. While it is tantalizing to think dreams carry hidden meanings or are symbolic in a way, that notion has been long forgotten and done away with in Cognitive Psychology (in the same way, no longer does anyone think babies enjoy nursing because they are somehow sexual creatures... yeah, thank Freud for that one...). For some reason, no matter how much you explain it to a person, its very hard to get it through to some people that dreams have no significance. Again, this is another demonstration of the Anthropic principle, humans are constantly trying to find "beyond the obvious" so-called "meaning" behind rather mundane occurences. Sometimes, its just inappropriate to ask "why" things occur (such as "Why did my child get cancer/into an accident/hurt in some way).

    There is a great deal to learn about the Psychology of Belief. I can sum it up in about 2 sentences:
    Humans are wishful thinkers, they have a natural tendency to see "meaning" in things that arent really there.

    Because of that Psychology of Belief, any prediction made vague enough has a greater chance of coming true.

    Predictions of attacks are not valid if you plan to carry those attacks yourself (or have explicit knowledge they are going to occur).

    Predictions made after an event occurs are not valid (such as in the instance where I described a bit of my paranoid tendencies).

    Predictions such as "someone's gonna die tomorrow" are not valid, its too vague.

    Predictions such as "the sun will rise tomorrow" are not valid, use commonsense.

    Making a prediction of the lotto numbers everyday is not valid, statistically eventually you will get them (most likely at the same rate that you win the lotto). (Note: If you make a prediction of the lotto numbers that is a statistically significant - such as predicting every week with consistant accuracy - then its a different story.)

    Many people claim to possess psychic powers, in fact in Psychology, most kids between the ages of 11 and 15 are extremely interested in the supernatural (and a great deal of them think they possess these supernatural powers). Given the proper conditions (i.e. lack of education or outside reading, a wishful mind that cant distinguish between reality and unreality, an environment where many people fervently believe - and encourage belief - in the supernatural, etc. etc. etc) then said person may believe he has these powers for his entire life.

    Many people count the hits and forget the misses. There is a specific term in Psychology that refers to that, but I cant seem to recall it off the top of my head. You notice how much leeway people will give "psychics" when they recieve readings. Sometimes, a person who visits a psychic will forget all the misses, or even worse, make excuses for the psychics misses (such as saying "I was tense, that probably disrupted the 'energy' flow, so the psychic couldnt read me so well).

    Here is an example of "precognition", from famous Parapsychologist Charles Tart:
    So, why dont I believe in precognition? Its impossible, and those who believe in it are merely lacking to exercise their critical thinking muscle.
  10. Dec 22, 2003 #9
    I approach this from a logical perespective.

    IF, time is only a human measure (does not exist in the greater reality) AND all events are simultaneous there is no reason why we can not alter our focus to see a "future" event. What I am saying is that our conciousness is currently 'focused' into the physical human demension. If we alter this focus slightly, we should be able to see the other events/experiences. Now, is it necessary or important that we do so? i doubt that it is necessary since modern man does not use it. it might be important if we wish to make better decisions within our present, about the future we wish to experience. don't we 'visit/view the future' every time we day dream about where our efforts are leading???

    as for predetermination: why bother living or creating if it is all within a script that was written by someone else??? nah, illogical!

    to me, my current present moment is a focus of my past and future dreams or ideas. all three are inter-related in such a way that i experience a present that is perfect for each.

    free will and sim-time will expand the universe and our vision of same.
  11. Dec 22, 2003 #10
    And yet, why should someone listen to someone who tells them to listen only to themselves? If you're right, then, in order to agree with you we have to disagree with you...not too constructive.
  12. Dec 22, 2003 #11
    Hello Mentat, yes fairly close to that. You do not have to disagree, you just have to come to the evetual understanding that true understanding can only come from within. The question one should ask is what exactly is "within".

    Yahweh, from your perspective, that may be what you percieve reality to be. I have a different perspective and at times a relative/absolute one. The vision I witnessed will come to pass more than I know my name or you know your own.

    Yahweh, I wanted to do the test with your freiend Randi, good magician if he was the one responding. Misdirection is the key. How do you do a pretest of precognition? He weaseled out and did not answer a single of my direct questions. I do not know if the challange is real or if it is fake. It does not matter. With or without Randi the truth will be known. It was a vision afterall.
  13. Dec 22, 2003 #12
    So your telling me that if i have a nightmare about spiders i am not gonna be scared of spiders in real life? The fact is that your brain beleives that you are awaake when you are dreaming so when you are awake how does the brain distinguish between what has been dreamed and what has actually happened?

    As for deja vu, its happened to me far to many times for it to be a coincidence, but i dont notice it until after the event has happened, which is why i dont call myself psychic.
  14. Dec 22, 2003 #13
    Andy, besides percog visions, regular dreams and sometimes intense dreams are also a powerful method of discovering things your concious mind cannot sometimes break through. This has happened to me on many an occasion. Dreams are a powerful method of understanding yourself and the world around you. It has been a method of understanding the world for since the dawn of man. It is only the arrogant unconcious and destructive society that we live in today which views life in narrow boxes, that denies reality without thought. Amazing. We have put a man on the moon and yet we have not yet acknowleged the truth. That is because the truth is quite dangerous to the unconcious juggernaut of human motion. We would actually have to open our eyes to see where we are going. That would be quite scary would it not.
  15. Dec 22, 2003 #14
    It depends in what sense you're using precognition. You can know where a celestial body will be at a certain point if you know the proper forumlas to use. If you know someone well you can often tell how they will react to a situation.
  16. Dec 23, 2003 #15
    You dont need a dream to tell that.

    If it helps at all, try to see it this way:

    Dreams wont tell you anything about the world that you dont already know, they wont tell you anything about the world that you wouldnt have figured out on your own by natural means.

    If I remember my Psychology correctly, you are unconscious while you are asleep, this includes REM sleep. It can be summed up like this: Even while you are dreaming, you are unaware of your own existence and unable to control your own actions (unless you happen to be having a lucid dream, but those are rare).

    Are you dreaming Checklist (Test assumes you are an average healthy person.)

    1. Are you sentient/self-aware?
    [x] Yes
    [_] No

    1a. If you checked "Yes", are you awake? (This question is to see if you are having a Lucid experience.)
    [x] Yes
    [_] No

    Note: If 1 is checked No, and you are unsure if you are having a Lucid experience, try to shoot a laser out of your eyes, if you cannot shoot a laser out of your eyes, you are not having a lucid dream.

    2. Is everything you are experiencing occurring able to be explained in terms of matter and natural phenomena?
    [x] Yes
    [_] No

    There are more questions you could ask yourself, those are just the important ones. If you checked "yes" to all questions, you are obviously awake right now, if you have some answers that appear to be conflicting go back and retake the test.

    Delimma solved.
  17. Dec 23, 2003 #16
    You what?

    And i stand by the fact that a stronger mind would be able to use precognition.
  18. Dec 23, 2003 #17
    Andy, intersting words your speak "strong mind". Ah, and here lies the dilema which keeps the creation of the universe in where it is. Where visions happen, mountains move and human beings fly. There is something that once gone past, the universe happens and then anything is possible. I do not have a strong mind, but then again, I do not know anyone that does. There are only human minds. When you come to this realization you will have visions, god help you if you do. Nothing is for free and everything has a price.
  19. Dec 23, 2003 #18
    Yahweh, I just want to thank you for actually taking the time and energy of trying to explain to me, in some detail, the nature of human interpretation of precognition. And also, for not trying to shove your belief in my face by conventional methods.

    Thank you again. SOME PEOPLE could take a lesson in this respect.
  20. Dec 24, 2003 #19
    IMHO, when we realize that we are multi-demensional and that dreams (sleeping and day-dreaming) are a portion of our total conciousness, we will be better able to manipulate our physical reality.

    as we progress, we find that light can be a wave or a particle. probably a function of what the observer wishes to accomplish. why can't we accept that we have abilities beyond the physical? afterall, the physical world is nothing more than solidified energy. our mind is much greater than what we can comprhend while focused in a physical world. it might even be limit less.

    i submit that some of the greatest ideas may have been the result of an individual's ability to view an alternate reality (while sleeping or day-dreaming) and then utilize that information present, to formulate a 'new idea'.

    requesting proofs for any alternate view is a limiting belief! as long as we can concieve of a possiblity, we increase the probablity of its existence. we can not 'prove' that there is life in other worlds. and yet, we 'know' that to deny that possiblity is foolish. as we expand our civilizations acceptance of that possibility we also increase the probablity of finding/communicating with another being in another world. could this other being be 'non-physical'? could they simply exist as 'thought energy'? if so, how would they communicate?? telepatically, in dreams? voice in our head?

    i suggest that we explore all ideas and concepts and accept those that 'work for us'. a requirement of proof only delays progress.

    the only truth is that there ain't no truth!!!! (no truth=no proof).
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