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Predetermined miracles

  1. Mar 1, 2008 #1
    When you think of a miracle you think of something amazing happening that cannot be explained. Until science was discovered everything was a miracle because the sun rising and the stars in the sky were not explained. But why would a miracle have to happen in real time. Isn't it safe to say that the laws and properties that govern the universe are indeed gods miracles? That when something amazing happens we see that god isn't making them happen in real time , but he made them happen with his laws and rules set before the universe was made.
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  3. Mar 1, 2008 #2
    The laws of physics needs no creator. We know why the laws of physics are the way they are (most of the time). The laws of physics are not laws like legislative laws, but general descriptions of the way the universe works. These come from symmetries which can be roughly said to be geometrical phenomena.

    A good book is "The Comprehensible Universe: Where Do the Laws of Physics Come From?" by Victor Stenger.

    A miracle is generally defined as a violation of natural law. Although we can rewrite the law to include that exception, but that would be somewhat arbitrary. Also ponder what effect the possibilities of miracles has on the usage of induction by science in its quest for knowledge of the natural world.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2008
  4. Mar 1, 2008 #3


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    Assuming that God exists (I wonder why you don't capitalize "God"), and you define "miracle" to be something done by God, as you seem to be doing, then, yes, everything is a "miracle". However, that is not the usual definition of "miracle" and, as for God, to quote Laplace, when Napoleon asked why there was no mention of God in his treatise on the solar system, "I had no need of that hypothesis."
  5. Mar 1, 2008 #4


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    Why would it be safe to say that?

    i) PRESUME the existence of God,
    ii) and then say that hypothezised existence caused observed laws,
    iii) declaring this as a miracle.

    Any and all of your statements might be contested.
  6. Mar 1, 2008 #5
    Basically I'm saying that when people point out anything that is a miracle, that they may just be pointing out something they don't understand completely.
  7. Mar 1, 2008 #6
    This is more a theology question than one of philosophy.

    What I mean is, miracles aren't just about the unexplained. Defining a miracle is basically talking about intervention by a supernatural entity....gods. In other words, if not for the god, things would have 'naturally' gone a different way.

    The Jewish god, for instance, parted the red sea for Moses. It wasn't that Moses didn't understand tides, he knew what happened. God intervened, changed the rules, on his behalf. By definition, no natural phenomena explains what happened, because by definition, the laws of nature were suspended by the intervention of a god.
  8. Mar 1, 2008 #7


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    No, that was not what you basically said.
    What you said was:

  9. Mar 1, 2008 #8
    this goes back to 'first cause.'
    1) assume that all actions have a reaction
    2) the reaction becomes an action
    3) you can follow all reactions to a first action

    what was the cause of the first action

    even in mathematics you can't mathematically prove A+B=C. its just through all of history if you took 2 things and put it with one thing you get 3 things.

    in that sense i could see a person believing in god for the basic rules of math and physics.

    however a miracle is often described as something happing ageist the laws of nature.
  10. Jun 17, 2008 #9
    Maybe that's what you consider a "miracle". To others, the birth of a child is a miracle or maybe a paraplegic walking again. I personally do not believe in "godly" miracles. There are several things that happen that can not be simple explained, this does not make them a "miracle". Although, if you can show me a one.. I'd take a look.

    .. then Quantum Field Theory is a miracle to me !!!:rofl:
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2008
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