Pressure on Pope to apologize to Muslims

[selfAdjoint]

but the USA supported the Taliban at one point. Does that make the USA an exporter of terrorism?

According to some, yes. And it's really hard to answer them.

 

[Anttech]

You can look at Israel's record with nuclear weapons and see that it has never threatened to wipe any nation or country. Even our mistakes were made in the name of ill-perceived self-defense.

What track record, if you dont admit you have them how can you threaten to use them to wipe a nation or country pubically?

Iran is a theocracy, and the real power is held by the Council of Guardians and Supreme Leader - which are Islamic extremists by any count. The ones not appointed by the Supreme Leader are the product of a Justice system that executes girls that have been repeatedly sexually assaulted by older men by hanging and abused women by stoning.

Yes Iran isnt perfect, but neither are other Nuclear countries, Russia for example.

Look basically there is not point looking down our noses at Iran and saying we (anyone) are morally better, and more just, thus we can have the bombs and you cant. It isnt a valid argument. The only argument I can think of is that we (The nuclear nations) want to keep our position at the very top of the food chain, and thus we dont/wont allow you to have them. So run along and we will give you some economic benifits.

Yes but Israel is not the "west", it is a nation state with strong survival instincts.

I know you arent the "west"

 

[Anttech]

t's a quote, nothing more. He was quite clear these were not his beliefs. I think that would be enough for any straight-minded person, especially considering his record.
In the hypothetical case of Judaism being as violent as Islam, and those were the words of someone who was engaged in a battle with a Jewish empire, I would not see anything wrong with the Pope simply quoting it to make an example of the need for a Christian-Jewish dialogue. The Pope's saying "this is how Christians who were at battle with you perceived you, don't make the same mistake".

To bring this thread back on topic:
Exactly. To understand the popes very wise speech, you have to understand the context of that quote, and the context of the person who said that in the first place. His speech was a master stroke and has highlighted some massive contradictions, intentionally or not. Not only that, but it seems to have opened a dialogue, rather than shut doors.

 

[Yonoz]

And I salute him for that!

You may, but to the State of Israel he's a traitor and he was treated as such.

That is an opinion, and catch sound bites Just because a man prays a few times a day, and follows his relgious book, doesnt make him a Zealot, or does it?

No, this is what makes a man a zealot:

Speaking at the Conference for the Unity of Islam, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Ali_Khamenei#Ali_Khamenei_and_violation_of_Human_rights" said: "human rights are a weapon in the hands of our enemies to fight Islam."

According to Reporters sans frontières : "Ali Khamenei [...] is one of the most dangerous predators of press freedom". Since 2000, he has shut down hundreds of pro-reformist publications and jailed numerous journalists.

Khamenei introduced the concept of "insider-outsider". Accordingly in his administration outsiders have less rights compared to insiders and can not have any administrative posts.

In February 2004 Parliament elections, the Council of Guardians banned thousands of candidates, including most of the reformist members of the parliament and all the candidates of the Islamic Iran Participation Front party from running. This led to a win by the conservatives of at least 70% of the seats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Jannati" [Broken] is considered close to the Iranian Islamic conservatives, and is heavily criticized by the reformists for his active role in not approving reformist candidates to run in various elections and blocking their legislation.

He is disdainful of non-Muslims, having said "non-Muslims are animals that chew their cud and cause corruption on Earth." During a Friday Prayer on 4 August 2006 Ayatollah Jannati asserted, "upport for Hizbollah [is] a duty."

 

[Yonoz]

What track record, if you dont admit you have them how can you threaten to use them to wipe a nation or country pubically?

Can you find reference to a non-public threat?

Yes Iran isnt perfect, but neither are other Nuclear countries, Russia for example.

True.

Look basically there is not point looking down our noses at Iran and saying we (anyone) are morally better, and more just, thus we can have the bombs and you cant. It isnt a valid argument. The only argument I can think of is that we (The nuclear nations) want to keep our position at the very top of the food chain, and thus we dont/wont allow you to have them. So run along and we will give you some economic benifits.

You can look at it this way if you like.

 

[Astronuc]

but the USA supported the Taliban at one point.

I don't recall the US government supporting the Taliban per se, however the US government did support various mujahideen groups, some of which included Taliban, in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion/occupation. The US had an interest in preventing the Soviet Union from controlling Afghanistan. It was in Afghanistan that the intelligence community became concerned about 'blowback' during the mid-1980's.

 

[Anttech]

Can you find reference to a non-public threat?

Why should I? I didnt assert that you had made a non-public threat.

I assert that since you havent admitted you have them, it makes it impossible to make a public threat. There is rather a big difference between asserting that you made a non-public threat, and what I actually asserted. Regardless, would you like to tell me, how one can reference a non-public threat? via a non-public newspaper? I dont have access to confidential reports.

 

[Anttech]

I don't recall the US government supporting the Taliban per se, however the US government did support various mujahideen groups, some of which included Taliban, in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion/occupation.

Ermmm.. You dont recall, per say, or you dont recall? Because the US Government did support the Taliban, during the cold war. The Taliban is just as you said. A bunch of different groups, which the media bundles together and calls the Taliban

 

[Yonoz]

Why should I? I didnt assert that you had made a non-public threat.

I assert that since you havent admitted you have them, it makes it impossible to make a public threat. There is rather a big difference between asserting that you made a non-public threat, and what I actually asserted. Regardless, would you like to tell me, how one can reference a non-public threat? via a non-public newspaper? I dont have access to confidential reports.

I meant a non-public threat that was later made public, for example uncovered by the media.

 

[Anttech]

I meant a non-public threat that was later made public, for example uncovered by the media.

Cant say I can reference that, is it even relevent to the point I am making?

That is, you have a secret nuclear arsenal how can you threaten someone with that arsenal.

So your making us look at your track record when there isnt one, because you dont have any nukes, as far as we are conserned isnt a valid reason as why you should be allowed to have them and not sign the Non-Proliferation treaty and Iran shouldnt be allowed them and has signed.

 

[Yonoz]

Cant say I can reference that, is it even relevent to the point I am making?

That is, you have a secret nuclear arsenal how can you threaten someone with that arsenal.

So your making us look at your track record when there isnt one, because you dont have any nukes, as far as we are conserned isnt a valid reason as why you should be allowed to have them and not sign the Non-Proliferation treaty and Iran shouldnt be allowed them and has signed.

Well if there are no nukes there's nothing to complain about, is there? If there are nukes, and they have been sitting in their tunnels for nearly half a century now, that's a good track record. Especially considering that during this time Israel has known very morbid days. During the Yom-Kippur war there was a lot of dark humour, the epitome of which was a joke about the last Jew in Israel remembering to switch off the lights.

 

[kyleb]

That isn't dark humor, that is absurd fearmongering akin to the http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jan04/simons.htm" [Broken].

 

[Yonoz]

That isn't dark humor, that is absurd fearmongering akin to the http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jan04/simons.htm" [Broken].

Oh you were here back then were you?
Look kyleb, as long as you hang on to words by people like Chaim Simons and Neturei Karta, you will never understand Israelis. In that sense you are no different from Chaim Simons, Ze'ev Jabotinsky and Noam Chomsky. As a matter of fact, I must inform you I know your type very well. Had you been an Israeli, IMO you would have been a die-hard right winger. Radicals are radicals, on both ends of the political spectrum.
Let me know when you wish to join us here in the real world.
Also, please stop spewing venomous propaganda whenever your argument reaches a dead end.

 

[kyleb]

I'm just doing my part to shed a bit of light on the absurdly of the propaganda you spew and delusional double standards you so vehemently cling to. How old were you during the Yom Kippur War? Yeah.:grumpy:

 

[Yonoz]

I'm just doing my part to shed a bit of light on the absurdly of the propaganda you spew and delusional double standards you so vehemently cling to.

Just try to use acceptable debate practices and to bring in genuine sources.

How old were you during the Yom Kippur War? Yeah.:grumpy:

Right now in the adjoining room to mine there are over a dozen people who lived through that time. Do you want me to ask one of them to explain the feeling in Israel in the first days after the Arab surprise attack on Yom Kippur?

 

[kyleb]

Like I said; delusional double standards.