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Emilie.Jung
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Equivalence principle says that gravitational forces are equivalent physically to inertial forces. Can someone explain what is meant by that and how was it concluded?
Both are proportional to mass and neither can be detected using an accelerometer.Emilie.Jung said:Equivalence principle says that gravitational forces are equivalent physically to inertial forces. Can someone explain what is meant by that and how was it concluded?
Consider an accelerometer at rest on the ground. There is an upwards contact force and a downwards gravitational force. These two forces cancel each other, but the accelerometer reading is non zero. It detects only the upwards contact force.Emilie.Jung said:What do you mean by neither can be detected using an accelerometer?
Inertial acceleration can't be detected using an accelerometer? How else can an observer with no other external inputs know that its frame is non-inertial?DaleSpam said:Both are proportional to mass and neither can be detected using an accelerometer.
By the fact that he observes motion that can only be explained by forces that are not detected by the accelerometer.loislane said:Inertial acceleration can't be detected using an accelerometer? How else can an observer with no other external inputs know that its frame is non-inertial?
Huh? But if its accelerometers marks zero acceleration then it is in an inertial frame by definition, why should it feel inertial forces?DaleSpam said:By the fact that he observes motion that can only be explained by forces that are not detected by the accelerometer.
I am saying that an accelerometer does not detect inertial forces.loislane said:So you are saying that an accelerometer attached to a noninertial lab that is uniformly accelerating doesn't detect the inertial force felt by a person on that lab?
You cannot "feel" inertial forces, for the same reason accelerometers cannot detect them.loislane said:the inertial force felt by a person
I guess we must be understanding different things by inertial force.A.T. said:You cannot "feel" inertial forces, for the same reason accelerometers cannot detect them.
loislane said:When the bus becomes a noninertial frame by accelerating or taking a turn I consider the forces I feel(like being pulled back or sideways respectively ) as inertial forces,hace you never felt those?
As Peter said, the forces that you actually feel, are frame independent real contact forces and stresses in your body. That you feel them is a frame independent physical fact, so it cannot be related to frame dependent inertial forces. When you analyse the bus from an inertial frame, then there are no inertial forces anymore, but the people in the bus are still squeezed.loislane said:I consider the forces I feel(like being pulled back or sideways respectively ) as inertial forces,hace you never felt those?
loislane said:I guess we must be understanding different things by inertial force.
When riding in a bus at constant rectilinear speed I consider myself not feeling any inertial forces. When the bus becomes a noninertial frame by accelerating or taking a turn I consider the forces I feel(like being pulled back or sideways respectively ) as inertial forces,have you never felt those?
Somewhat, but there is nothing "pulling"; the force F is caused by the accelerating bus pushing on you with mass m:loislane said:I guess we must be understanding different things by inertial force.
When riding in a bus at constant rectilinear speed I consider myself not feeling any inertial forces. When the bus becomes a noninertial frame by accelerating or taking a turn I consider the forces I feel(like being pulled back or sideways respectively ) as inertial forces,hace you never felt those?
Of course we can only feel contact forces which compress our cells; we can not identify the cause of those contact forces by feeling alone. However, we can usually identify the cause of the contact force by other means, just as loislane indicated.stevendaryl said:Peter and A.T. have already addressed this, but I would like to expand on it. Suppose you are in a very large spaceship floating in deep space. You are floating above the floor of the spaceship (there's no gravity). Now, suddenly the spaceship's rockets fire, and it starts accelerating. What do you feel? You feel nothing at all. You just start moving toward the rear of the spaceship. You don't feel any forces until you hit the floor of the spaceship. At the point, what you feel is the force of the floor slamming into you---in other words, you feel contact forces between you and the floor. There is never a time when you feel any inertial forces.
harrylin said:Of course we can only feel contact forces which compress our cells; we can not identify the cause of those contact forces by feeling alone. However, we can usually identify the cause of the contact force by other means, just as loislane indicated.
When we add a descriptor such as "inertial" or "gravitational" to a following word such as "field" "or "time dilation", we commonly mean that it's the assumed physical cause of the effect. You could call the force, as you seem to suggest, acceleration force, but the descriptor inertial force is more common. As I pointed out (and as we of course all know), both acceleration and inertia are required to produce that force; that aspect of mass is often called "inertial mass".stevendaryl said:I'm not sure what you mean by "the cause of the contact force". [..] or do you mean the cause of the floor's acceleration upward? Yes, you certainly can't figure that out from the way it feels alone.
If the frame of reference is accelerating, even mass-less objects like light undergo the same coordinate accelerations in that frame.harrylin said:the descriptor inertial force is more common. As I pointed out (and as we of course all know), both acceleration and inertia are required to produce that force; that aspect of mass is often called "inertial mass".
loislane said:I guess we must be understanding different things by inertial force.
When riding in a bus at constant rectilinear speed I consider myself not feeling any inertial forces. When the bus becomes a noninertial frame by accelerating or taking a turn I consider the forces I feel(like being pulled back or sideways respectively ) as inertial forces,hace you never felt those?
I was probably not clear on what exactly it is usually referred to as inertial force by physicists. In fact I was interested in the origin of whatever comes associated with the acceleration in a noninertial frame be it in the form of motions or of contact forces like the seat against the back, obviously if one discards any contact force as inertial before hand one is left just with the motions observed as a cosequence of noninertiality of a frame.PeroK said:Those forces are actually an illusion of sorts. Consider sitting on a bus that acclerates. You think you are being pushed back, but actually if you try to detect any force on your front, you won't find one. But, you do feel the seat pushing on your back: it will squash your jacket, perhaps even hurt your back. So, the bus is simply pushing you forward. There is no force opposing this.
Compare this with someone pushing you against the bus seat. In this case, you will feel both forces. And, if this bus seat wasn't there and you were being pushed back, then you would feel only the force on your front.
It's the same with a car going round a bend (say turning to the right, so you end up against the left door). Even though you imagine you are being pushed to the left, you feel nothing on your right shoulder, but you do feel (and could measure) the force on your left shoulder.
Well. it may as well be irrelevant but on the other hand I have witnessed people attaching meaning to the fact that invariant proper acceleration is something that we can "feel" when distinguishing it of other kinds of acceleration.DaleSpam said:@loislane there appears to be no disagreement about what is referred to by the term "inertial force". Only disagreement about whether or not you "feel" them. Human perception is extremely complicated and notoriously easy to trick, so I think that question is largely irrelevant.
this looks mainly semantic but I would like to get clear on this, accelerometers detect 1 g on the Earth's surface, I guess it is up to you to decide if that is due to the Earth's gravitational field, or to some other more contrived cause that avoids calling it gravity, or inertial force due to the Earth's being a noninertial frame, or to reactions forces, it all looks a bit arbitrary to me.The fact remains that accelerometers do not detect inertial forces. Is that much clear to you? Accelerometers also do not detect gravity. Is that also clear?
loislane said:In fact I was interested in the origin of whatever comes associated with the acceleration in a noninertial frame
loislane said:be it in the form of motions or of contact forces like the seat against the back
loislane said:if one discards any contact force as inertial
loislane said:I have witnessed people attaching meaning to the fact that invariant proper acceleration is something that we can "feel" when distinguishing it of other kinds of acceleration.
loislane said:accelerometers detect 1 g on the Earth's surface, I guess it is up to you to decide if that is due to the Earth's gravitational field, or to some other more contrived cause that avoids calling it gravity, or inertial force due to the Earth's being a noninertial frame, or to reactions forces, it all looks a bit arbitrary to me.
Contact forces are frame invariant physical facts. They cannot be transformed away by a frame change, like gravity(locally) or inertial forces.loislane said:one discards any contact force as inertial
It is relevant whether something is frame invariant or not. "Feel" is just a synonym for "detect locally without outside reference", which is what an accelerometer does.loislane said:Well. it may as well be irrelevant but on the other hand I have witnessed people attaching meaning to the fact that invariant proper acceleration is something that we can "feel" when distinguishing it of other kinds of acceleration.
1g pointing upwards, just like the normal force on the accelerometer.loislane said:accelerometers detect 1 g on the Earth's surface,
loislane said:inertial frames (defined as those in which an accelerometer reads zero)?
loislane said:So how do you call the acceleration(and associated forces) related to noninertial frames that is indeed measured by accelerometers
loislane said:this looks mainly semantic but I would like to get clear on this, accelerometers detect 1 g on the Earth's surface, I guess it is up to you to decide if that is due to the Earth's gravitational field, or to some other more contrived cause that avoids calling it gravity, or inertial force due to the Earth's being a noninertial frame, or to reactions forces, it all looks a bit arbitrary to me.
An accelerometer at rest on the Earth detects 1 g UPWARDS. So it definitely is not detecting gravity which is downwards. This is not a semantic difference. Physically the upwards pointing contact force is detected by the accelerometer. Physically the downwards pointing gravitational force is not detected by the accelerometer.loislane said:this looks mainly semantic but I would like to get clear on this, accelerometers detect 1 g on the Earth's surface, I guess it is up to you to decide if that is due to the Earth's gravitational field, or to some other more contrived cause that avoids calling it gravity, or inertial force due to the Earth's being a noninertial frame, or to reactions forces, it all looks a bit arbitrary to me.
Of course, as your math showed, you mean "measure the opposite of the acceleration due to gravity"stevendaryl said:But if we choose the nongravitational part so that the total acceleration is zero, then (and only then) will an accelerometer measure the acceleration due to gravity.