Proof the Bible is God's Word

[Laser Eyes]

1. The history of how we got the Bible
The survival of the Bible is a remarkable story. During the time that the Old Testament was written other nations produced religious literature but while they were forgotten the Bible has survived. The Jews who produced the Old Testament were an oppressed people. They had to fight against powerful enemies such as the Philistines, the Ammonites and the Moabites. When the empire was divided the Assyrians wiped out the northern kingdom and the Babylonians crushed the southern kingdom. At times various enemies like Haman tried to annihilate the Jews. The Syrians tried to force the Jews to follow Greek customs and Greek Gods. Despite all these difficulties the Jews and the Hebrew scriptures survived while the nations around them disappeared.

The Christians who produced the New Testament were also oppressed. The Jewish authorities tried to stop them spreading their ideas. The Roman empire tortured and killed Christians and the emporer Diocletian ordered the burning of all Bibles. Once again the threats to the survival of the Bible failed.

Why did the Bible survive when other books that did not face these challenges were forgotten? If the Bible really is the word of God then no humans could destroy it.

Another aspect of this story of survival is the repeated recopying of the Bible on perishable material. The discovery of Bible manuscripts, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, prove that the Bible has come down to us with amazing accuracy, despite the risk of human error and attempts to deliberately alter the text.

But the story doesn't end there. The empire of Christendom tried to destroy the Bible in a different way. In the Middle Ages the Pope ordered that the Bible be kept in Latin and not translated into the common language. It became a crime to own a Bible and people suffered shocking punishments for trying to translate the Bible and make it available to others. People have been willing to risk death just to own a Bible. It has inspired a devotion and willingness to die unparalleled in human history. No other book in history has survived despite such fierce opposition by enemies. The distribution of the Bible today is estimated at four billion copies in two thousand languages. The story of the Bible as a book is unique.

2. A higher wisdom
(a) The Bible contains wisdom that is beyond merely human capabilities. In a world that has always promoted the pursuit of wealth the Bible recognises: "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" - 1 Timothy 6:10 However the Bible also recognises the practical need for money when it says: "For wisdom is a defence as money is a defence" - Ecclesiastes 7:12 Substance abuse is a serious problem in many countries including affluent western societies. Two thousand years ago The Bible writer wisely counseled us to stay in control of ourselves and not let addictions rule our lives. When speaking about the food we take into our bodies Paul said: "I will not be brought under the power of any." - 1 Corinthians 6:12 We live in a corrupt world, where your business partner one day may be the person that steals your life's savings the next. The Bible includes "a false witness who speaks lies" among six things that God hates. - Proverbs 6:19 Has there ever been a more wise saying than Jesus' advice: "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12 What the Bible says about marriage is unfashionable by today's standards. But if husbands obeyed the Bible's counsel to "love their own wives as their own bodies" (Ephesians 5:28) and if wives respected their husbands (Ephesians 5:33) maybe we wouldn't see the spiralling divorce rate and the family breakdown this causes. The Bible commands sexual abstinence prior to marriage. - Matthew 19:4-6 The Bible's approval of sexual relations only in marriage, is considered old-fashioned today. But a long hard look at the results of "sexual freedom": unwanted pregnancies, teenage motherhood, sexually transmitted diseases; shows that there is much to be said for the strict standard set down in the Bible. Far from bringing a feeling of freedom the loose morals prevalent today have brought pain and suffering. The Bible's practical suggestions, if followed, raise the physical and mental health of those who follow them. It might be said that many books written by men do the same. But remember the writing of the Bible started in 1513 B.C. and ended in 98 A.D. The wisdom contained in the Bible was unknown at the time of its writing. The Bible provides guidance and sets standards of conduct in business dealings, working life, family relationships, raising children and clean moral conduct that are beneficial if followed.

The Bible is one of the most influential books in history. Abraham Lincoln: "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." Robert E. Lee: "In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength." Mahatma Ghandi: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems, not only of our countries, but those of the whole world." John Quincy Adams: "I speak as a man of the world to men of the world, and I say to you, search the Scriptures. The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life."

3. A claim consistently made by the writers that they were writing God's thoughts and not their own
I'm reluctant to include this one. Statements by a writer that his words are inspired by God are self-serving and are certainly not proof that they are. But what is remarkable here is that the claim is repeated by many different writers time and time again. In 2 Samuel 23:2 the writer states "The spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and his word was on my tongue." Over a thousand years later Peter makes the same claim, "For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit." - 2 Peter 1:21 John writing in exile on the island of Patmos in the year 96 also credits the book of Revelation to God: Revelation 1:1-2 That the same claim is made by so many different men at widely differing times and places is something to consider. Contrast this with what we know of human nature. Do the academics, psychologists, scientists, professors and other intellectuals of today readily give the credit for their writings to someone else? Isn't it human nature and intellectual pride to take the credit for what one produces? Why would 40 different writers, who mostly never met or knew each other, over a period of 1600 years, all refuse to take any credit for what they had written? Can you think of any other example that even comes close to this?

(continued below)

 

[Laser Eyes]

4.Scientifically accurate
(a) Long before modern scientists concluded that the universe had a beginning Moses wrote in Genesis that "God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1 How did he know that there was a certain moment in time when the universe began?

(b) At a time when the world had little knowledge or understanding about the Earth two Bible writers revealed a knowledge that could only have come from one source. Writing in the wilderness in about 1473 B.C. Moses said that God "hangs the Earth on nothing." - Job 26:7 This description accords with the appearance of the Earth suspended in space due to the interaction of gravity and centrifugal force. At the time, and for centuries later, there were all sorts of myths and legends, one common view was that the Earth rested on 4 elephants standing on a large sea turtle. The Egyptians thought the universe was a north-south rectangular box with the Earth on the bottom and Egypt in the centre, and at four cardinal points very high mounts held up the sky. How did Moses know 3000 years before Copernicus, and without those snazzy space shuttle pics, that the Earth hangs self-poised in empty space? If you think about it, what the Bible writer said is the last thing a human mind would have come up with. Gravity plays such a big part in our lives, everything rests on something, its what we understand, observe and live by, we even have a saying for it: "What goes up, must come down". Why would a man think the Earth just floated in space, resting on nothing, contrary to everything else in his life? Writing in the eighth century B.C., 2200 years before Magellan sailed around the world, Isaiah told us that God "sits above the circle of the earth." - Isaiah 40:22 How did he know the Earth was round when everybody else on Earth thought it was flat?

(c) One of the objectives of the law that God gave to Israel was to protect the health and welfare of the people. Egyptian medicine prescribed the application of human and animal excrement as a remedy for various ailments. Their use could result in serious infections including tetanus or lockjaw. Considering that "Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22) the regulations found in the Mosaic law that relate to physical cleanliness show remarkable knowledge of sound sanitary procedures. One regulation dealt with the segregation and burial of excrement. The hazard of leaving excrement exposed was not generally known until last century. - Deuteronomy 23:12-13; another required anyone who came in contact with a dead person to undergo a cleansing procedure - Numbers 19:11-22; the importance of quarantining persons with transmissible diseases was recognised - Leviticus 13:46

(d) God instructed Abraham that "every male of yours eight days old must be circumcised." - Genesis 17:12 The requirement that circumcision take place on the eighth day was restated in the Mosaic law. - Leviticus 12:3 Why the eighth day? Only recently physicians have discovered that essential blood-clotting elements are higher on the eighth day than at any other time of a child's life. Did the Bible writer just happen to pick the perfect day by chance?

(e) Long before modern medicine made the connection the Bible recognised the psychosomatic principle, that there is a connection between a person's physical health and his mental attitude. "A merry heart does good, like medicine, but a broken spirit dries the bones." - Proverbs 17:22 A sound heart is life to the body, but envy is rottenness to the bones." - Proverbs 14:30

(f) When Moses wrote Genesis there were many strange theories about the causes of day and night. Men thought daylight was caused by a bright vapour and darkness by a black vapour that ascended from the ground. Yet the Bible accurately states the cause of day and night to be lights in the heavens that give light on the Earth and "divide the light from the darkness". - Genesis 1:14-18

(g) In the Egyptian society in which Moses grew up and was educated it was taught that man came from Ra's tears. But in Genesis 2:7 Moses wrote that God formed man from "the dust of the ground." Every chemical found in the human body is found in the ground. Of all the things that Moses could have chosen to say that man was created from he just happened to pick something that was chemically consistent with the human body. Was it just a good guess?

(h) In Ecclesiastes 1:7 the Earth's amazing water cycle, unknown in ancient times, is vividly described: "All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place from which the rivers come, there they return again." Where did Solomon learn this in 1000 B.C.?

(i) An examination of the scientific accuracy of the Bible would not be complete without looking at the account of man's creation. Is the creation of man by God unscientific? Does modern science support evolution or creation? One way to test evolutionary theory is by examining the fossil record to see if a gradual change from one kind to another really happened. Evolutionary theory suggests a fossil record that contains very simple life forms gradually changing into complex ones with transitional links between them and new body features starting to appear. Creation suggests a fossil record that contains complex life forms suddenly appearing, variety only within species, no transitional links between species and no partial body features. Many scientists openly admit that when you look for links between biological families they just aren't there. Even Darwin in his Origin of the Species admitted the fossil record did not support his theory when he said, "I look at the geological record as a history of the world imperfectly kept, ... imperfect to an extreme degree." After more than a century of research, and an extensive record now discovered, the fossil record reveals the same thing it did in Darwin's day: Complex life forms appearing suddenly without transitional links between different species. Far from supporting the theory of evolution, the fossil record lends weight to the arguments for creation. In his book Cosmos, astronomer Carl Sagan said, "The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer."

(j) Let's look at another aspect of whether science supports the Bible version about how life began. Evolutionary theory suggests that life began spontaneously by a chance collision of chemicals and energy. But more than a hundred years ago Louis Pasteur clearly demonstrated that life comes only from life. The gulf between living and non-living things grows wider as scientific knowledge increases. The spontaneous generation of life from non-living matter belongs in the realm of science fiction, not science fact. Of the Bible's explanation, that life was created by a living God, it can at least be said that it is not inconsistent with established scientific knowledge.

5. A remarkable consistency
Suppose you asked 40 writers to write 66 books over a period of 1,600 years. The writers were all from varied backgrounds, some were educated, others were farmers and shepherds and most of them lived at different times in history and in different places. What are the chances that their writings would harmonize? The Bible shows remarkable internal harmony even in the smallest details. What may seem to be a contradiction is usually explained by the fact that the Bible writers had different backgrounds and different writing styles and these differences are reflected in the writing. Also if two writers relate the same event one might include details that the other leaves out. Additionally, two writers might use different methods, one might record something chronologically while another might use a different method.

(continued below)

 

[Laser Eyes]

6. Fulfilment of prophecy
The Bible says that God is the one "Declaring the end from the beginning" - Isaiah 46:10 The Bible contains hundreds of fulfilled prophecies and even some that we are seeing come true today. Obviously I don't have room to tell them all here. I will limit myself to a few, the fulfilment of which are historical facts beyond dispute.

(a) History records the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 607 B.C. and the Jews being taken into captivity. Isaiah prophecied it 150 years before it actually happened. - Isaiah 39:5-6

(b) On a fateful night in 539 B.C. the Persian general Cyrus overthrew the city of Babylon. His soldiers were able to approach along the banks of the Euphrates by diverting the course of the river. They entered through gates that for some reason had been left open. They captured the palace and killed Belshazzar. The city had fallen in one night. Two hundred years before it happened Isaiah foretold the destruction of Babylon, that its rivers would dry up, that Cyrus would conquer the city and that its gates would not be shut. - Isaiah 44:27, 45:1 Jeremiah made the same prophecy 50 years before it happened. - Jeremiah 50:38, 51:11, 30

(c) After the predicted 70 years in exile, in 537 B.C. Cyrus returned the Jews to their homeland. Jeremiah foretold the Jewish exile would last exactly 70 years. - Jeremiah 25:11; 29:10

(d) In the eighth century B.C. Isaiah foretold that Babylon would eventually be completely destroyed and never again be inhabited. - Isaiah 13:19-22 In the sixth century B.C. Jeremiah made the same prophecy. - Jeremiah 51:37, 41-43 The prophecy was not fulfilled until the fourth century A.D. and to this day Babylon is a bunch of desolate ruins.

(e) The book of Daniel, written in the sixth century B.C. during the Jewish exile in Babylon makes startling predictions about the dominance of various world powers. Daniel accurately predicted that the Medo-Persian army would conquer the Babylonian empire even though it was a dominant power at the time. - Daniel 8:3, 20; an attempted invasion of Greece by the fourth king of Persia - Daniel 11:2; the defeat of Medo-Persia by Greece under Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. - Daniel 8:5-7, 21; and its eventual division into 4 smaller powers - Daniel 8:8, 22

(f) In the first century it was foretold that many claiming to be Christian would bring reproach on the Bible and the name of Christianity. - Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Peter 2:1-2. The empire of Christendom promoted military campaigns against the Muslims, the so-called holy crusades. The appalling conduct of the church to prevent dissemination of the Bible I recount elsewhere. During the last few centuries the military expansion of the supposedly Christian nations has been marked by cruelty and greed. The last two world wars have been fought between "Christian" nations. We should remember that their conduct does not represent true Christian teachings. Is that the kind of prophecy you would expect of a purely human creation?

(g) There is perhaps space for one more. This amazing prophecy is coming true right before our eyes. Jesus' disciples asked him what will be a sign of the last days. He said, "Many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars ... For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom and there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places ... because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." - Matthew 24:5-12 Some may argue that these things have happened in the past and they would be right, but they have never before happened together and on a worldwide basis and in addition they are becoming more and more pronounced.

7. Logical answers to questions that only God can answer
There's an old saying: "Nobody's perfect." And yet who can explain why? Why is every person on Earth flawed in some way? We don't think of animals as being imperfect. We don't think of trees, or plants, or flowers, or anything in nature as being imperfect. We don't even think of rainy days as being wrong. And yet somehow we know that there is something wrong with us. The Bible provides an explanation of how human life started, how imperfection was introduced by the first man, and how this has brought about war, crime, sickness, famine and ultimately death . Man is not evolving, he is degrading. The Bible provides a complete and logical explanation about the world today and how it got this way, how we can achieve happiness, what will happen in the future to the Earth and mankind. The answers the Bible provides to life's questions are like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle which, when put together, produce a picture that is logical and makes sense.

8. Surprising candour
People don't like to admit their own mistakes. And they certainly don't like to immortalise their errors in writing for posterity. The Bible writers display a surprising candour and honesty about their weaknesses. In Numbers 20:1-13 Moses reveals a serious mistake which led to him not leading his people into the promised land. Jonah told how he disobeyed a direct command from God out of indifference. - Jonah 1:1-3 Many passages in the gospels record the failings of Jesus' disciples. The disciples failure to understand Jesus. - Matthew 16:5-12 Peter's embarrasing failure to walk on water - Matthew 14:28-31; his denial of Jesus 3 times - Matthew 26:69-75; the disciples argued among themselves who was the greatest among them - Mark 9:33-34; Luke 22:24 The apostle Paul told how he used to beat Christians - Acts 22:19; and he described himself as the worst sinner in the entire world. - 1 Timothy 1:15 If the writers were going to make false claims wouldn't they most likely falsify the things which show them in a bad light?

 

[Zero]

Wow, long posts...all wrong, of course, but at least they are long!


(Copyright violation, anyone? I'll go check with Kerrie...)

 

[Shadow]

Gee Zero your post is so long and well thought out! You give so much proof and reason to your opinion!

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Shadow
Gee Zero your post is so long and well thought out! You give so much proof and reason to your opinion!

Read my edit...Kerrie may need to delete the whole thing.

 

[Royce]

Once again, Zero, you take great delight in showing your ignorance and arrogance. Laser Eyes' post was for the most part factual whether we agree with the conclusions or not. Even if we don't agree that does not make it wrong. Do you know for a fact that it is a copywrite violation or is that just an assumption on your part.

Please engage brain before engaging mouth or pen. By not doing so you are proving tha your name fits.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Royce
Once again, Zero, you take great delight in showing your ignorance and arrogance. Laser Eyes' post was for the most part factual whether we agree with the conclusions or not. Even if we don't agree that does not make it wrong. Do you know for a fact that it is a copywrite violation or is that just an assumption on your part.

Please engage brain before engaging mouth or pen. By not doing so you are proving tha your name fits.

(I've actually read this posted online somewhere, so I know it is a C&P...I just don't know if it is a copyright violation or not...yet. It may have a waiver on it, but he should still attribute the source)

Ooooh, insults...good debate tactic!

Let's break it down, shall we?

1. The history of how we got the Bible
Nothing impressive here, actually. Oppression yeild fanatic devotion to a cult, which explains how the Bible 'survived'(more on that later)


2. A higher wisdom
This is simply nonsense. The Bible is a mix of common sense and a few ideas that are nonsense. Nothing impressive or otherworldly about saying 'greed is bad', we all know that.


3. A claim consistently made by the writers that they were writing God's thoughts and not their own
Which is no proof of anything at all. What better way to deflect criticism than to say 'Don't blam me, God said it'?


4.Scientifically accurate
Again, nonsense. Also ignores the history of the Greeks, who knew MUCH more about the natural world than the Jews, and earlier too.


5. A remarkable consistency
Suppose we look at reality here. When the Bible was formalized, the Church decided to go through some 200 books, and picked teh ones that fit together the best. Selective editing explains the consistancy(which is lacking in the Bible, actually; many so called 'consistancies' strain logic.)


6. Fulfilment of prophecy
More bunk. If Chapter 1 of a novel predicts something, we expect thatv by the last chapter it will have happened. We don't act surprised about that, do we? There has been NO confirmed prophetic fulfillment, except what the Bible contains within itself, and no thing can be its own proof. Semi-self consistancy is no proof of anything but good editing.


7. Logical answers to questions that only God can answer
Logical? HA! And, how does the Bible distinguish itself from other holy books? Not at all, actually, which is the point. Declaring to have the final answer is not the same as actually having it.


8. Surprising candour
Since the Jewish culture is based on guilt and self-hatred, there is no surprise that the Bible writers show their faults as a means of establishing their hukmble natures. It is a cultural trait, not proof of anything.

 

[radagast]

LE,
Ignoratio elenchi with a sprinkling of Non causa pro causa and Petitio principii.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by radagast
LE,
Ignoratio elenchi with a sprinkling of Non causa pro causa and Petitio principii.

In English, if you don't mind?

 

[radagast]

All are argument flaws:

Ignoratio elenchi - Irrelevent conclusion flaw
Non causa pro causa - Basically there is no demonstrated connection between cause and effect, as argued
Petitio principii - Begging the question flaw - this fallacy occurs when the premise is at least as questionable as the conclusion reached.

 

[Laser Eyes]

(Copyright violation, anyone? I'll go check with Kerrie...)

(I've actually read this posted online somewhere, so I know it is a C&P...I just don't know if it is a copyright violation or not...yet. It may have a waiver on it, but he should still attribute the source)

Zero, you have not read what I posted online or anywhere else. I spent much of my free time over the past week writing it. All of the above was written by me. What I posted bothered you so much that you went looking for anyone's help to find a reason to get rid of it. I was angry when I read that. Now it amuses me to think of you going on a fruitless search through the internet to try and find my post. The arguments are not new. But my writing of them is. It is an outrageous slur to accuse someone of copying someone else's work. You made the accusation publicly without knowing it was true and sought help from anyone to try and prove it! In my opinion you are unfit to hold a position of authority in a forum. I think you should remove your accusation above and any indication that it was ever made and it ought to be accompanied by an apology.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
Zero, you have not read what I posted online or anywhere else. I spent much of my free time over the past week writing it. All of the above was written by me. I notice you have removed the request you made in your first response: "copyright violation anyone?". So what I posted bothered you so much that you went looking for anyone's help to find a reason to get rid of it. I was angry when I read that. Now it amuses me to think of you going on a fruitless search through the internet to try and find my post. The arguments are not new. But my writing of them is. It is an outrageous slur to accuse someone of copying someone else's work. You made the accusation publicly without knowing it was true and sought help from anyone to try and prove it! In my opinion you are unfit to hold a position of authority in a forum. I think you should remove your accusation above and any indication that it was ever made and it ought to be accompanied by an apology.

Actually, it only shows that you know your stuff there. And indeed it does look like it was borrowed from elsewhere. I would just take the whole thing as a compliment.

 

[megashawn]

Scientifically accurate you say?

How about explaining this one to me then. From Genesis:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Ok. This says god created the lights in the firmament of heaven (space) to divide the day from night.

The fact of the matter is that all of the "Lights in heaven" would not cast enough light on Earth to provide for daytime.

verse 16, it states god made two lights, the greater light to rule heaven, and the lesser light to rule the night.

First, he already created all these lights to provide daylight, as was stated in verses 14 and 15. Also, the story speaks of the sun as if it was something different then all the other lights. In reality, we know that the sun is a star, just as is all the lights.

Also, the moon itself does not generate light, but merely reflect light from the sun. If the moon was to rule over the night, why does it not cast its own light?
edit: More importantly, why is it that the bible implies that it does? (calling it a light)

Now, more for your accuracy, why is it that at one point in time, the bible stated the Earth as being the center of the universe, and it does not now?

While you were pointing out a scripture about it saying the Earth was round, why is it that the church was so violently opposed to such speculation later?

Evolution. It happens dude, face it. The fossil record is incomplete, and does not account for everything that has/does live.

http://www.cmonitor.com/community/news/west/2003/letrs0219a_20032.shtml [Broken]

Really, how are we possibly supposed to find evidence of everything that ever walked this earth? Even today we find living things we've thought were extinct for thousands of years.


Ok, as zero pointed out, there was a point in time where the bible you and I read today was manufactured. Books were added, books were removed. You act as if the bible is the oldest religion on earth.

See, people often forget that before Moses's god ever set that bush on fire, Native americans were dancing around fires praying for rain. Or that ancient celtics were kicking it in stonehenge. Or the ancient greeks, whom also had much more knowledge of the physical world, as was pointed out. How about the epic of gilgamesh, which is known to be older then some bible people believe the Earth to have existed. Also thought to be a source of a lot of the bibles stories, ie the flood.

There is a lot of good information in the bible. Like zero said, its mostly common sense. My dad once told me "Common sense is not common." and I've found this to be oh so true. So of course, we need a way to get the common sense messages to the not so intelligent persons of the world.

Another thing about the bibles historic accuracy you claim, what about exodus. Seems recent discoveries have all but debunked the entire book. They now say that the workers were not slaves at all, but valued workers. They had nice housing, and even an example of one person who was injured during life, and was nursed back to health. Why would you waste the time to save one injured slave, when it would be more cost (time) effective to simply put another in his place?

Also, there is nothing in the egyptian record of the emperor from exodus, or of moses, or of the plagues. There has been a natural explanation provided for the parting of the reed swamp, not red sea, that a volcanic eruption several miles away was at a perfect timing. Divine intervention or coincidence? I'll rest my vote on a coincidence, unless something divine intervenes and changes my post before I hit the submit button.

 

[megashawn]

Actually, it only shows that you know your stuff there. And indeed it does look like it was borrowed from elsewhere. I would just take the whole thing as a compliment.

Agreed. If a person of authority thinks something is a copyright, and it indeed is not, then you should definately feel flattered.

I kinda wondered myself if you didn't copy and paste from somewhere else, just due to the content and size.

How about we drop this lil pettyness, and continue the thread.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by megashawn
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the Earth ...

And here the greater light would be the sun and the lessor light would be the moon. I think the two verses which came before were just leading up to these two verses.

And did people know that the moon didn't shine by itself in those days? I kind of doubt it.

 

[megashawn]

And did people know that the moon didn't shine by itself in those days? I kind of doubt it.

Agreed. However, a person inspired by an all knowing super being should, as laser eyes claimed on other examples.

 

[megashawn]

You know, I just realized something. I completely agree with laser eyes.

I and others have determined that the only way an all knowing, all powerfull, all loving being can exist, is in the minds of the believer.

In this case, I fully agree that the bible is Gods word. Because god is mans imagination, and man can imagine some pretty crazy stuff. Don't believe, just check out the Sci-fi channel one night.

Anyhow, god is imaginary, atleast, no one can prove his existence beyond that level.

Really, makes everything else irrellevant.

 

[ray b]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And here the greater light would be the sun and the lessor light would be the moon. I think the two verses which came before were just leading up to these two verses.

And did people know that the moon didn't shine by itself in those days? I kind of doubt it.

IT is all in the timing in the bible story
earth first
then later the sun, moon and other stars

we now know the stars first, then later the sun
even later the earth, as we are made of star stuff recycled thru a star that went super nova
so at no point was there a dark earth

BTW what is a firmament? strange name for a interstellar vacume??

percution of christians is greatly exaggerated by them. the romans were far more tolerant of others belifes then the christians ever were.
there is no evidence of jews being wiped out other than when in revolt against rome in the holy lands.
local riots were not empire wide or supported by the army,or government so all events against both religions were local in nature and brief in duration and few in number killed esp for christians.

look up the real number kill by romans
3000 christians is the number I have found for total killed over many years.
allmost all for not worshiping the imperator as a god, something few romans BELIVED but were required to go thru the motions of by laws

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
Zero, you have not read what I posted online or anywhere else. I spent much of my free time over the past week writing it. All of the above was written by me. What I posted bothered you so much that you went looking for anyone's help to find a reason to get rid of it. I was angry when I read that. Now it amuses me to think of you going on a fruitless search through the internet to try and find my post. The arguments are not new. But my writing of them is. It is an outrageous slur to accuse someone of copying someone else's work. You made the accusation publicly without knowing it was true and sought help from anyone to try and prove it! In my opinion you are unfit to hold a position of authority in a forum. I think you should remove your accusation above and any indication that it was ever made and it ought to be accompanied by an apology.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry...but I honestly don't think I am.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by ray b
percution of christians is greatly exaggerated by them. the romans were far more tolerant of others belifes then the christians ever were.
there is no evidence of jews being wiped out other than when in revolt against rome in the holy lands.
local riots were not empire wide or supported by the army,or government so all events against both religions were local in nature and brief in duration and few in number killed esp for christians.

That the christians were persecuted: They were much more so than the Jews. The Romans considered real religions to be of ancient origin, so considered Jews strange, but practicing a religion. The christians they considered a strange cult. For the first 100 years or so they went well out of their way to avoid killing them for their practices (and considering how often Romans killed people for what we would consider insignificant things, this is fairly amazing). Your correct in that, mostly, they were they were in violation of not performing their civic duty (public demonstrations actions showing allegience/worship of the emporer). It wasn't until the christians started going well out of their way to destroy Roman temples that public opinion turned to punishing them. Even then, there was more restraint than I'd have expected from Roman society.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

1. History? There are lots of old, surviving works of literature. Take The Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance. That's older that the Bible, and the Bible clearly rips it off. So if God wrote the Bible than he's a plagiarist.

2. Higher wisdom? Like when Jesus said "do unto others?" Buddha already said that six hundred years earlier. There's nothing in the Bible that couldn't have already been said by someone else.

3. Lot's of people say God is talking to them. Osama bin Laden and George W. Bush for instance.

4. Scientifically accurate? If God wrote the Bible than he's not only a plagiarist but an idiot as well, because the world ain't flat and pi ain't three.

5. Internal consistency? Have you even read the Bible? Not only filled with contradictions, but could you please explain to me how Numbers is in harmony with Revelations?

6. Yeah, prophecizing things that have either already happened or are incredibly vague. Neat trick.

7. Logical answers to questions only he can answer? "Hey God, should we allow homosexual marriage?" "HOMOSEXUALS SHOULD BE EXECUTED! LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE. ALL MEN ARE SINNERS." "Thanks, God."

8. Suprising candor? Only mistakes you've reference are characters, not authors. If God came down and said, "you know what, I'm sorry, I was full of **** about that whole creation story. Do you forgive me?" Maybe then I'd say candor.

 

[Zero]

No offense, Laser Eyes, but the arguments you presented only "convince" people who already believe.

 

[radagast]

The Bible: A meme gone terribly awry.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
1. The history of how we got the Bible

Irrelavent to proof...

2. A higher wisdom
(a) The Bible contains wisdom that is beyond merely human capabilities.

Both incorrect and absurd to assume that the wisdom in the bible is beyond human capabilities. Numerous cultures, far removed from the middle east arrived at many, if not all, of the wisdom, often phrased differently, as in the bible.

LE, you've studied the bible a great deal, but seem to have ignored the parts of human history not relating to the bible - a serious mistake if you plan to try and back up claims, such as the one above.

3. A claim consistently made by the writers that they were writing God's thoughts and not their own

Fine, but irrelavent to any evidence whatsoever, much less constituting a proof.

[Continued in next post.]

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
4.Scientifically accurate

While they got some things right, and some vaguely right, you've been very careful to pick and chose. There were many that did contradict both common sense and scientific knowledge (say the flood, or how all those carnivores would have survived after the flood without eating the herbavores, how some parts of the bible would lead us to believe the Earth is the center of the universe [aka Galileo's troubles]).

5. A remarkable consistency

Considering all the contradictions I've seen (some posted), I'd say consistency is not only not proof, nor evidence, it's not even correct.

Assuming it was correct, it wouldn't be considered either proof or evidence of the truth of the bible, only that a group of people, believeing pretty much the same things, wrote a series of small books that are consistent. Kinda like saying the Cthulu mythos is correct, because it's consistent. Or the series of Star Trek novels is correct due to consistency.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
6. Fulfilment of prophecy

Linguistic analysis of some of the more original texts has shown that much of the prophecy mentioned was written after the accounts that the prophecy was meant to predict. If the prophecy didn't predate the event, then it's hard to call it prophecy.

7. Logical answers to questions that only God can answer

Again, other cultures have come up with similar things. Many before the advent of the bible.

8. Surprising candour

This isn't evidence of anything. Many fables do the same thing. People like stories with morals, you cannot demonstrate moral consequences without having people with failings.

 

[Laser Eyes]

No offense, Laser Eyes, but the arguments you presented only "convince" people who already believe.

That's no problem Zero. I'm certainly not offended because someone doesn't change their beliefs after reading my post. I knew the odds of that were about one in a million. When you deal with God and religion you are dealing with people's emotions and change is difficult and usually slow. But there just might be one person out there who starts thinking along the lines of "Could there really be something to all this ... ?"

Oh btw one more thing. What you said is not really true. The arguments that I presented have in fact convinced many people throughout history that the Bible is God's word. Do you think everyone who believes the Bible is God's word does so for no reason?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
That's no problem Zero. I'm certainly not offended because someone doesn't change their beliefs after reading my post. I knew the odds of that were about one in a million. When you deal with God and religion you are dealing with people's emotions and change is difficult and usually slow. But there just might be one person out there who starts thinking along the lines of "Could there really be something to all this ... ?"

Oh btw one more thing. What you said is not really true. The arguments that I presented have in fact convinced many people throughout history that the Bible is God's word. Do you think everyone who believes the Bible is God's word does so for no reason?

No, I think people have emotional reasons to believe fairy tales, and that no logic is needed, except to quiet that small voice of reason saying "This is the most ignorant Dungeons& Dragons BS I've ever heard!"

Seriously, I can't imagine anyone being convinced by the arguments you spent all weekend writing all by yourself.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

hello all you happy people,
LaserEyes please take a look at this site. I think it has the answers to all your arguments...

 

[Laser Eyes]

Thanks Guybrush. I had a glance there. There's obviously a lot of information there and it would take some time to go through it all. I will have a look at it from time to time when I can.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Hey Zero, why don't you back off you imcompetent slob, you still haven't voiced any legitimate refutation to this specific post. You have only harped the long and widely recognized critique of religon.

Do you have any REAL arguements to THIS SPECIFIC TOPIC at all? Or are you just butting into a very well structured debate with ignorant babble?

posts like this will get you banned...i am noting this in my quote, and your post will be deleted...do it again, and i will nominate you into the hall of crackers...

 

[Mattius_]

Kerrie, I can cite instances for each of my comments if you like...

 

[Zero]

Here, for the non-reading members of PF, is my refutation of Laser Eyes' initial posts(minus one or two spelling errors):

Originally posted by Zero


Let's break it down, shall we?

1. The history of how we got the Bible
Nothing impressive here, actually. Oppression yeild fanatic devotion to a cult, which explains how the Bible 'survived'(more on that later)


2. A higher wisdom
This is simply nonsense. The Bible is a mix of common sense and a few ideas that are nonsense. Nothing impressive or otherworldly about saying 'greed is bad', we all know that.


3. A claim consistently made by the writers that they were writing God's thoughts and not their own
Which is no proof of anything at all. What better way to deflect criticism than to say 'Don't blam me, God said it'?


4.Scientifically accurate
Again, nonsense. Also ignores the history of the Greeks, who knew MUCH more about the natural world than the Jews, and earlier too.


5. A remarkable consistency
Suppose we look at reality here. When the Bible was formalized, the Church decided to go through some 200 books, and picked teh ones that fit together the best. Selective editing explains the consistancy(which is lacking in the Bible, actually; many so called 'consistancies' strain logic.)


6. Fulfilment of prophecy
More bunk. If Chapter 1 of a novel predicts something, we expect thatv by the last chapter it will have happened. We don't act surprised about that, do we? There has been NO confirmed prophetic fulfillment, except what the Bible contains within itself, and no thing can be its own proof. Semi-self consistancy is no proof of anything but good editing.


7. Logical answers to questions that only God can answer
Logical? HA! And, how does the Bible distinguish itself from other holy books? Not at all, actually, which is the point. Declaring to have the final answer is not the same as actually having it.


8. Surprising candour
Since the Jewish culture is based on guilt and self-hatred, there is no surprise that the Bible writers show their faults as a means of establishing their humble natures. It is a cultural trait, not proof of anything.

Now, if anyone wants to throw insults around, try refuting my post.

 

[Mattius_]

complete spin!, that's all i can say!