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does nothing exist apart from my mind?
WHo says your mind exists? Perhaps you are just a figment of mine!zelldot said:does nothing exist apart from my mind?
Good morning selfAdjoint,selfAdjoint said:WHo says your mind exists? Perhaps you are just a figment of mine!
Does something exist just because it's part of your mind? :tongue2:zelldot said:does nothing exist apart from my mind?
Well, if the brain was merely a matter of being "physical" ... then yes.Jameson said:Does something exist just because it's part of your mind? :tongue2:
Yes, nothing exists apart/independently of your mindzelldot said:does nothing exist apart from my mind?
Define 'existence'?zelldot said:does nothing exist apart from my mind?
Are you saying that 'Truth' is a 'thing'? Like a bicycle? I think that your reasoning is faulty here. For 'Truth' to 'exist' in your hypothesis, it must be a 'thing'. Can 'existence' be considered for that which is not a 'thing'? If 'truth' is nothing more than a human concept, is a 'concept' a 'thing'? If 'truth' is Consciousness, is Consciousness a 'thing'? Perhaps there is no such 'thing' as 'truth', but I think that your reasoning here is incapable of logically determining such a 'thing'. Logic itself, being nothing more than an artificial 'construct' within mind, seems rather 'circular' in it's 'self-validation', and limited in scope for determining ultimate 'truth', if any. Logic cannot even determine if there really IS an 'out there'... out there!Sikz said:If nothing exists, truth does not exist.
Actually, you can never actually 'know' if there is any 'external' world to your 'mind'. Your senses are not arbiters of 'truth' any more than your mind is. Every sensory 'given' is a fiction. The greatest 'fiction' of all is that there is an 'out there', out there.Because my experiences are the sole source of my belief and knowledge of the “exterior world”, if they do not exist, the exterior world does not exist.
Yes. But it has limited scope. Very limited in determining ultimate reality/truth. Which it has been unsuccessful in so doing up to this moment.My entire point is that logic proves itself. Logic is a self-validating and self-containing system.
Is a bird like a bicycle? Is an atom? Howabout heat, or motion, or gravity?nameless said:Are you saying that 'Truth' is a 'thing'? Like a bicycle? I think that your reasoning is faulty here. For 'Truth' to 'exist' in your hypothesis, it must be a 'thing'. Can 'existence' be considered for that which is not a 'thing'? If 'truth' is nothing more than a human concept, is a 'concept' a 'thing'? If 'truth' is Consciousness, is Consciousness a 'thing'? Perhaps there is no such 'thing' as 'truth', but I think that your reasoning here is incapable of logically determining such a 'thing'. Logic itself, being nothing more than an artificial 'construct' within mind, seems rather 'circular' in it's 'self-validation', and limited in scope for determining ultimate 'truth', if any. Logic cannot even determine if there really IS an 'out there'... out there!
You can't know for certain that there is an external world; but if there isn't, you can just skip my first two points and the rest still reads perfectly fine.Actually, you can never actually 'know' if there is any 'external' world to your 'mind'. Your senses are not arbiters of 'truth' any more than your mind is. Every sensory 'given' is a fiction. The greatest 'fiction' of all is that there is an 'out there', out there.
But we exist within the system of logic, and reality is DEFINED by logic. It is only through the logical concepts of 'truth', 'falsehood', 'reality', 'yes', and 'no' that "existence" even has any meaning. Existence is a thing of logic, as are all concepts with meaning; logic is self-validating because the concepts of 'validation', 'truth', 'existence', and 'logic' only exist WITHIN the framework of logic. It's a self-containing set (ie 'logic' is only a meaningful word when taken logically, in contrast with 'nonlogic' and interpreted according to logical principles applied to information we already have), so it can prove itself just as well as anything else.Yes. But it has limited scope. Very limited in determining ultimate reality/truth. Which it has been unsuccessful in so doing up to this moment.
Something having SELF validation and containment is not evidence for 'truth' and validity any more than the self-referrential Bible is God's Word because that is it's 'claim'!
Your syllogism is faulty for proving that you have any 'real' existence, as your logic contains (possibly) faulty assumptions (premises)...
How are they all 'alike' beyond 'superficial' differences? From one perspective, QM has followed the trail of 'thingness' down to 'possibility/potential/probability waves' of all possible 'futures' until the touch of Consciousness collapses the wave into one of the 'potential realities'.Sikz said:Is a bird like a bicycle? Is an atom? Howabout heat, or motion, or gravity?
Concepts of this and concepts of that are still concepts. A concept is a concept. A concept of a banana and a concept of a dragon are not made 'different' by the hologramic content. They are still concept. 'Content' does not change the 'conceptness' of concepts.These are all 'things'. You can't compare one concept to that of one specific 'thing' and then disregard the first concept's "thingness".
I have no idea if there is a corresponding 'reality' to our concept of 'truth', and there are many differing concepts, from the Sage's understanding, to the imaginings of the 'sleepwalkers'. Truth might just exist as a concept, or it might not. I cannot necessarily accept this statement as a 'given'.If truth is a human concept,
What, please, is a 'Metaphysical thing'?and human concepts are either
a) Metaphysical 'thing's
If you wish to accept the 'mental holographic representation of illusion' as a definition of 'thing' than I will accept your definition.or
b) Physical patterns in the brain, which is a 'thing',
then yes, truth is a 'thing'; it is a type of concept, which is either itself a 'thing' or is a type of physical system, which is a 'thing'.
Not necessarily. But if 'ultimate Truth' is, for instance, wholistic, as is often claimed, a linear 'tool' such as logic, would be inappropriate for the examination thereof. Logic is strictly linear.If you say that this logic does not apply to truth, then you are claiming that if "nothing exists", truth still exists.
Contradiction has 'existence' within/as concept and is also logical, temporal, linear... There IS no contradiction possible to Truth (if it Is as posited by those who 'have been there') as Truth is non-dualistic.You're saying that truth existing and the lack of existence at all are not contradictory.
In the land of nails, the hammer is king! Concepts are available to the scrutiny of logic. The whole linear, temporal, material omniverse is fodder for the razors of logic. That which is unable to be conceptualized, beyond words, is likewise beyond the usefulness of the tool of logic (and logic is merely a tool for understang the dream, not for achieving lucidity within the dream).And you could be correct about logic; but if so, that would only hold BECAUSE of logic. The ideas you have about logic would be 'true'; which is a concept WITHIN logic, is it not?
True, there is that which is beyond words and beyond logic. Because logic can be applied to this and not that does not arbit 'value', any more than a nail is of more value than a screw because a hammer won't work on a screw (especially when there is a screwdriver in your pocket!) but will work on a nail. That is one reason for metaphor and analogy and music and poetry.. logic is not always the correct tool for the job.Without logic, there is no meaning to saying that there is no logic-- or to saying anything else.
Sorry, a lie is a lie. That which is an 'illusion', a fiction, remains an 'illusion' no matter how hard you scrinch your eyes and ball your fists and exclaim "I Believe, I Believe!!!" At that point, though, with belief, illusion becomes delusion. Not 'uncertain', insane. Deluded. Believing in that which is false, does not alter that 'falsity', that 'fictitious' nature..And it isn't a 'fiction' if you don't know whether it's true or not. It's uncertain, not false.
True, but it is our 'apparent' reality, though, the 'reality' of the 'illusion' that is available to the disecting blades of logic..But we exist within the system of logic, and reality is DEFINED by logic.
Sure, fine, within the limitations that I have already explained.It is only through the logical concepts of 'truth', 'falsehood', 'reality', 'yes', and 'no' that "existence" even has any meaning. Existence is a thing of logic, as are all concepts with meaning; logic is self-validating because the concepts of 'validation', 'truth', 'existence', and 'logic' only exist WITHIN the framework of logic. It's a self-containing set (ie 'logic' is only a meaningful word when taken logically, in contrast with 'nonlogic' and interpreted according to logical principles applied to information we already have), so it can prove itself just as well as anything else.
How could that possibly be accepted by anyone at all? Truth is demonstrably temporal in that "I have a house." is true-- but if I went out and sold it tomorrow, the statement would no longer be true.Truth is not a 'thing'. If one accepts the commonly accepted and offered (by those that have reached any real depth in the study thereof) attributes of Truth, such as non-temporal and therefore non-physical, eternally symmetrical, unchanging and unchangeable, non-dualistic, non-linear (wholistic), etc..
You're making the unwaranted assumption that "every sensory 'given' is a fiction". There may be doubt as to the reliability of sensory perception as a representation of reality, but there is no more (perhaps even less) basis for an assumption of falsehood than of truth. For some reason you've just decided this and began to make points about it in your posts...?Sorry, a lie is a lie. That which is an 'illusion', a fiction, remains an 'illusion' no matter how hard you scrinch your eyes and ball your fists and exclaim "I Believe, I Believe!!!" At that point, though, with belief, illusion becomes delusion. Not 'uncertain', insane. Deluded. Believing in that which is false, does not alter that 'falsity', that 'fictitious' nature..
It wasn't a given, or I would have phrased it as a statement instead of an unsupported "if" clause. I was replying to a case that you used in your earlier post.I have no idea if there is a corresponding 'reality' to our concept of 'truth', and there are many differing concepts, from the Sage's understanding, to the imaginings of the 'sleepwalkers'. Truth might just exist as a concept, or it might not. I cannot necessarily accept this statement as a 'given'.
I just said that one cannot 'know'. There might not or there might be... I just demonstrated that it cannot be a 'given' relating 'Truth' and 'existence' like that.Sikz said:If nothing exists-- if there is no existence-- is there truth? One of my points was that there was not, which you argued against.
The 'definition' is everything here. If you accept 'truth' as a 'thing', than it would be true that no-*thing* can exist if there were no-thing existing. If it is a 'thing'. For example, if there is a 'state' of 'non-duality', which 'Truth' has been posited as, it would not 'exist' nor 'not-exist', as both terms are within 'dualism'.I say that by definition, without existence there can be no truth; the exact definition of truth is not relevant, only the fact that it cannot exist without there being any existence.
See above...How could that possibly be accepted by anyone at all? Truth is demonstrably temporal in that "I have a house." is true-- but if I went out and sold it tomorrow, the statement would no longer be true.
'Truth/Reality' describes nothing, explains nothing.. Trivial 'truths' perhaps, but they are not what I'm referring to, and they seem to be all of which you have experience.You might argue that truth is some 'thing' seperate from the universe and time, a description seperate from that which it describes, and that a location in time must be described in order for the truth of any given statement to be ascertained (and therefore truth would be non-temporal), but that just obscures the definition of "temporal".
No we cannot. You'd have to demonstrate this one! Time is a necessary for any 'material existence'.We can set any idea outside of time
Big talk from a 'one-eyed fat man'!!Truth is demonstrably and undeniably temporal-- "wholistic" is a totally meaningless term.
My apologies. I have explained this in so many places and so often that I innappropriately made an assumption of understanding on your part. Again, apologies. Here is a short quote from my upcoming book,..You're making the unwaranted assumption that "every sensory 'given' is a fiction". There may be doubt as to the reliability of sensory perception as a representation of reality, but there is no more (perhaps even less) basis for an assumption of falsehood than of truth. For some reason you've just decided this and began to make points about it in your posts...?
OK, so the title is 'tentative'.. *__-from said:How much credence should we give our Original Five senses to portray a true and accurate representation of "what's out there"? I open my eyes and look up at the sky and the evidence of the senses is that there is a beautiful blue sky up there. ‘Reality’, right? You see the same thing don't you? Does consensus define reality? Should it?
Lets look at that blue sky up there for a moment. Picture a perfectly dark, clean room. There are windows on two opposing walls. Through one window is shined a light aimed out the opposing window. It is a coherent beam of light, not spreading out at all, not hitting the walls, and there is no glass in windows. There is no dust in the air of this clean room to disturb the happy passing of this beam of photons. In order for us to perceive light, out there, photons have to enter the eye and stimulate the cells in the retina and associated receptors, sending information to the brain for analysis (for possible action), or storage. (These brain functions produce a slightly, to one extent or another, toxic byproduct called 'thought'. More on that later.) We sit in this room and see no beam of light because no photons are being reflected into our eyes. Our eyes give us information that there is no light in this room. Yet we know that there is! The photons don’t have any kind of magic that makes them glow. Photons are dark! They emit NO light!! But, you argue, we fortunate sighted people all SEE a world of color, light, patterns... out there! We just saw, in a simple experiment, how photons are completely dark. They have to stimulate the appropriate sensory receptor, finally having information translated in the brain into light, color, etc... OUT THERE. Putting two and two together, shaken, not stirred, we find we live in a totally, absolutely blackest of black, dark universe. All those colors, patterns, old familiar faces, ...are all in your head. Literally! In front of your nose, despite the information of one of the Original Five senses, is absolute darkness!!! So much for the "obvious"...
Imagine that I have a couch; this couch is either flourescent, or a light is shone upon it. I sit in your dark, sterile room with two windows; the couch is outside one of the windows. Assuming, as in your experiment, that I do not go to the window and look out of it, I will not see the couch. Is this indication that my sensory perception is not in-line with reality? Does this mean that the couch is "dark" or that it does not exist?nameless said:How much credence should we give our Original Five senses to portray a true and accurate representation of "what's out there"? I open my eyes and look up at the sky and the evidence of the senses is that there is a beautiful blue sky up there. ‘Reality’, right? You see the same thing don't you? Does consensus define reality? Should it?
Lets look at that blue sky up there for a moment. Picture a perfectly dark, clean room. There are windows on two opposing walls. Through one window is shined a light aimed out the opposing window. It is a coherent beam of light, not spreading out at all, not hitting the walls, and there is no glass in windows. There is no dust in the air of this clean room to disturb the happy passing of this beam of photons. In order for us to perceive light, out there, photons have to enter the eye and stimulate the cells in the retina and associated receptors, sending information to the brain for analysis (for possible action), or storage. (These brain functions produce a slightly, to one extent or another, toxic byproduct called 'thought'. More on that later.) We sit in this room and see no beam of light because no photons are being reflected into our eyes. Our eyes give us information that there is no light in this room. Yet we know that there is! The photons don’t have any kind of magic that makes them glow. Photons are dark! They emit NO light!! But, you argue, we fortunate sighted people all SEE a world of color, light, patterns... out there! We just saw, in a simple experiment, how photons are completely dark. They have to stimulate the appropriate sensory receptor, finally having information translated in the brain into light, color, etc... OUT THERE. Putting two and two together, shaken, not stirred, we find we live in a totally, absolutely blackest of black, dark universe. All those colors, patterns, old familiar faces, ...are all in your head. Literally! In front of your nose, despite the information of one of the Original Five senses, is absolute darkness!!! So much for the "obvious"...
An idea is not correct on the merit of those who accept it. You use this same false justification for your views on QM...And, how can this be accepted by anyone? Actually, it is a common definition among millennia of Metaphysists, Sages, the 'Enlightened', Mystics, the 'Awakened, actually, anyone who has dug deep enough in to a search for Truth. That which is in omniversal state of permanence. Right away, all materiality is excluded by definition. All materiality is always changing within Time within 'mind'... Temporality can only equate to trivial truths...
We can set any idea outside of time as "nontemporal" and require a time location for any particular instance of it. I could say that life is not temporal-- that it exists outside of time-- but that in order to check the reality of any specific instance of the larger 'Life', a time location would be needed. The instance of life at my location in space at my location in time would describe reality (just as the instance of truth of "I have a house" at the same location and time describes reality), but life at another location might not describe reality (just as truth in another time, or another instance of truth, might not describe reality). This is all I meant with my comment about setting ideas outside of time; if 'truth', which can clearly be seen to change, is claimed to be 'nontemporal' in this way, it is only obscuring the definition of 'temporal' by circumventing it with fancy terms.No we cannot. You'd have to demonstrate this one! Time is a necessary for any 'material existence'.
What was inappropriate was not your assumption of my understanding, but your assumption of my agreement and of your correctness in lieu of any real supporting evidence or reasoning. It is easy to understand the idea you are putting forth, but that does not mean that you are free to claim the idea's correctness without scrutiny. You are making a large (and, from the weak and twisted arguments you've thus far put forth, unwarranted) assumption that "every sensory 'given' is a fiction".My apologies. I have explained this in so many places and so often that I innappropriately made an assumption of understanding on your part. Again, apologies. Here is a short quote from my upcoming book,..
The same can indeed be shown for all of the rest of your sensory 'input'; "the same" is just not what you seem to think it is. This, the idea you are putting forth, is not mysticism; it is pseudo-science. Definitely not high school science, nor any other kind of actual science. It is difficult to accept because it is clearly wrong, not because it violates the assuredness of the ego (which seems to be the only reason that you refuse to accept that it is incorrect). Physicists won't accept it because it's totally baseless and demonstrably false, obviously.The same can be shown for all the rest of your sensory 'input'. No sound, texture, movement, odors, etc... in front of your nose. This is not mysticism, it is science. Just not high school science. Of course it is difficult to accept as it does violate the assuredness of the ego and is about as 'counterintuitive' as you can get. That is why even physists can/will not accept this, as they are emotional, egoic beings before all the intellect. Gallileo was just recently 're-communicated' for the heresy of of his science! But, now we would enter the murky world of psychology...
I agree that my idea of truth as a whole is not entirely correct, and I realize that many parts of it will be proven wrong and have to revised-- people generally call this learning. However, this issue is, at large, a case of 'right' and 'wrong' (for some reason in quotes)-- which are not the emotions and the ego, but words that describe the relationship of an idea to objective reality. If you deny the existence of an object reality at all, any child can tell you (though in smaller words and with a bit less grammatical complexity) that in order for "there is no objective reality" to be totally and absolutely true, it must itself be an element of objective reality; an obvious disproof by contradiction. This observation is so common and simple that its significance is generally ignored; but I'm sure you understand that, representing a logical contradiction, the only way around it is the denial of logic-- and if that's the road you're taking, you admit that your views are logically incorrect, and you are therefore delusional. I doubt you deny logic, but you seem to be twisting a lot of things to validate your ideas instead of objectively looking for their truth or falsehood.I understand that you have your 'truths' and are describing the parameters and definition of that 'truth'. I also have my experiences and understanding of 'truth' which considerably differs from your's. Please don't assume that your truth is the only one or is a one size fits all proposition. It isn't, obviously.
It is not a case of 'right' or 'wrong' (emotional/ego).
You say it is omniversal. Therefore it must have existence in my world unless you are using 'world' as a masked way of saying 'incorrect worldview'. In the case that my worldview is incorrect, an omniversal and permanent reality that is not contingent upon temporal and local realities should be easily demonstrable-- yet you have failed to give even one example.As the 'Truth' of which I speak is absolutely (apparently) alien to you (in your 'reality'), it is reasonable and natural for you to argue it's 'existence' and 'meaning', especially as it HAS NO EXISTENCE OR MEANING to you, in your 'world'!
Mm... Well, thanks for your time.nameless said:I'm sorry that you have spent so much time with your, I'm sure, well thought out post. But you have pointed out to me that you are a waste of my time.
Believe whatever you like. I have nothing to prove or convince you of. Whether you take what I say seriously or not means more to the moon than it does to me.
'Pearls before swine' and all that...
Have a nice day.
Using an analogy from biology, paul (the typist) may be considered to be the phenotypic chance consequence of the genotypic neccessity of Paul (the thinker). That is, all I, You, Him, Her are identical via genotypes as H. sapiens, whereas, all i, you, him, her actually differ significantly as genotypes correlate (interact) with environment to form phenotypical expression (e.g., as typist, etc.). Just a straw man to continue the above suggestion of P.Martin.Paul Martin said:My suggestion is to explore the consequences of the proposition that I and You and Him and Her are all identically one and the same, even though you and i and him and her have perfectly distinct and recognizable bodies. What do You think about this? paul (the typist), and Paul (the thinker)
Had you read my posting a bit more carefully, before rejection, you'd have noticed that 'brain' and 'thought' are always found 'together'. Perhaps you thought (with your brain) that you heard me imply that 'thought' is not an inherent function of Consciousness. That is different. I never said nor have found a 'thought' without a corresponding brain. Thank you.Paul Martin said:thought exists outside the brain in Nameless' World,
Please accept my apologies for being so careless. I was not so careless in reading your post, which I did not reject, but I was careless in writing the sentence which you apparently misread. I can see that I misplaced two commas which probably lead to the misunderstanding.nameless said:Had you read my posting a bit more carefully, before rejection, you'd have noticed that 'brain' and 'thought' are always found 'together'. Perhaps you thought (with your brain) that you heard me imply that 'thought' is not an inherent function of Consciousness. That is different. I never said nor have found a 'thought' without a corresponding brain. Thank you.
Thank you for the suggestion, Rade, but, with respect, it does not capture the idea I meant to express.Rade said:Using an analogy from biology, paul (the typist) may be considered to be the phenotypic chance consequence of the genotypic neccessity of Paul (the thinker). That is, all I, You, Him, Her are identical via genotypes as H. sapiens, whereas, all i, you, him, her actually differ significantly as genotypes correlate (interact) with environment to form phenotypical expression (e.g., as typist, etc.). Just a straw man to continue the above suggestion of P.Martin.
I see them both still implying that in 'nameless' world, that 'thought 'exists' outside the brain. nameless is here to say that I have never found thought without a brain 'nearby'. I haven't the foggiest notion or evidence whether 'thought' is an 'entity' that can exist beyond the brain. I really feel that thought is simple waste matter, anyway, like a fart, excreted by a functioning brain. Not to be taken too seriously, at best! *__-Paul Martin said:I wrote,"What I am trying to say is that IMHO, thought exists outside the brain in Nameless' World, but my phenomenal behavior is firmly rooted in Sikz's world subject to all the laws of physics."
I should have written, "What I am trying to say is that, IMHO thought exists outside the brain, in Nameless' World, but my phenomenal behavior is firmly rooted in Sikz's world subject to all the laws of physics."
I know of no 'places' existing that are not within the 'mind/brain' duality. There is no-thing beyond. No thing. Like matter or space/time.I meant only to express a humble opinion of my own, that thought exists outside the brain. I did not mean to imply that you shared that view. The reference to "Nameless' World" was to suggest a possible place where thought might really exist if not in the brain.
I would say that was a fairly accurate assessment. Though, world might not be appropriate as the 'World" beyond the 'phenomenal' falls into no dictionary definition of world. Quaintly put, it is more the 'world of Consciousness', bearing no resemblance to any world of concepts or constructs within mind.I understood from your remark that "temporality ain't the only thing on the buffet" (please forgive me if I didn't get that quote exactly right), that your concept of the World (capitalized to distinguish it from the material/temporal world) was "bigger" in some sense than the materialistic world of physics and cosmology.
Actually, this 'continuum' (a poor descriptor as it is not 'continuing' nor even has inherent existence) takes no 'space' at all in 'Reality'.Whether or not you agree with that, I do think that there is more to reality than the 4D space-time continuum of physics and cosmology, and I think there is plenty of "room" outside of that continuum for thought to reside.
First, I would wager that you have never, either, 'found' a thought without a 'corresponding brain'. You will receive no radio program on your radio without a 'corresponding sender'. All within 'Duality' partake of 'dual' nature; in/out, up/down, live/die, sender/receiver, self/other... So, beyond the phenomenal world of Duality, I've ('Conscious/Awareness') never found anything that resembles 'thought'..I think that the reason you have never "found a 'thought' without a corresponding brain" is the same reason that people who have never been to a radio station have never heard a radio program without a corresponding radio.
Always happy to elucidate, (like a good discussion) and, when you are here in the room, you are part of the conversation, whether lurking or contributing your perspective. Nice to meet you.Sorry for interrupting your interesting discussion with this confusing distraction.