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Prove perfection

  1. Dec 7, 2004 #1

    AiA

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    Is God perfect?

    I say no, I say God is not perfect but instinctive, created the universe as a natural purpose.

    Agree, disagree, do what you like, but prove it.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 7, 2004 #2
    "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions."

    This is the dictionary description of god so therefore by definition the answer must be yes, otherwise he would seize to be god
     
  4. Dec 7, 2004 #3
    If God was not perfect in every aspect, he would not be God as Sho'Nuff said. Of course, you could say that perhaps our idea of God is wrongly defined, and God is actually "non-perfect" like you say.

    I have talked to you before about this: If there is a standard for everything in the world, good and bad, and there is imprefection, there must also exist perfection of some sort.
     
  5. Dec 7, 2004 #4

    AiA

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    ok, now lets say I change the word of God to an "essence" or what ever, just not God, then the question remains "is this essence perfect."

    Now I've concluded that there are examples of perfection, alot of them, when looking at the essence of a triangle, a circle, what ever, that essence is perfect, a triangle is perfectly a triangle. 2+2 is perfectly 4, see, examples of perfection. Now I say that the essence is the perfect creater, simply because with the perfect triangle, the essence of triangle is perfect because there is no other essence, there is nothing to compare it to, just like the original "essence", the creator is the perfect creator cause he is the ONLY creator, now that in no way implies that the "essence" is omnipotent.

    Now I come across another dilemma which my friends (dekoi) failed to argue, is that if our minds and souls are eternal, and with out a heaven or hell (cause there couldn't be heaven or hell with out the known perfect God) then where do our minds and souls go, (yes I just cornered myself, and if anyone knows how to pull me out of this corner, please respond.)
     
  6. Dec 7, 2004 #5
    If these are the two parameters you set for yourself than we'll prolly just float in space, I just dont understand why you choose these parameters and then trouble yourself with such a question. I'd say change your parameters
     
  7. Dec 7, 2004 #6

    hypnagogue

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    I think the question is ill-formed. What does it mean to say something is 'perfect' with no further qualifications? It makes sense to say, for example, that a key is perfect for a certain lock, but that it's not perfect for eating food off of a plate. But if one says just "This key is perfect," then it's not really clear what kind of claim one is making (assuming we don't merely assume that the statement implicitly means something like "This key is perfect (for this lock).")
     
  8. Dec 7, 2004 #7

    hypnagogue

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    The content of this post is just mere opinion / bald assertion with no logical support or motivation behind the question, and so it doesn't meet the Philosophy Forum Guidelines. If you ask people to 'prove' their viewpoints, the least you could do is provide some sort of substantive depiction of your own viewpoint (and ensure that your viewpoint goes beyond just "I believe so and so...").
     
  9. Dec 8, 2004 #8
    If it was purely instinctive, where did the instincts come from? Instincts are a quality which are inherited aren't they?
     
  10. Dec 8, 2004 #9

    AiA

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    opinions hold no place in search of truth

    I'm not asking for opinions, I don't want opinions, I want truth, provide truth and give me reason to believe in that that is truth and I'll believe.

    this God or essence is purely metaphysical, hence its essence comes from no where, it is what it is eternally, was the first cause and the eternal cause.

    Also when I speak of perfection, I speak of this essence as the "perfect creater" as you used the example of the "perfect key" for that lock, now I'm asking (based on that most religions revolved around God state that God is omnipotent and perfect in every aspect.) I'm asking why God is perfect in every aspect, perfectly perfect.
     
  11. Dec 8, 2004 #10
    Does a perfect circle and a perfect square exist? Yes, they do in the metaphysical sense, just like God does, as concepts. Now, if there was more to God than that which is merely conceptual, albeit He may exist within the same realm, aren't we also to conclude that God is perfect?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2004
  12. Dec 8, 2004 #11

    AiA

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    Please clarify why you presume God is perfect, it holds no foundation, no premise for your argument.
     
  13. Dec 8, 2004 #12

    loseyourname

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    AiA, you still haven't even attempted a proof of your own conclusion. Why should anyone here provide you with a proof of their conclusion if you haven't the courtesy to do the same?
     
  14. Dec 8, 2004 #13

    AiA

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    I'm not trying to prove anything, I gave my views which I myself am skeptical about, hence why i'm asking others to logically prove or disprove God's perfection so I can understand why he is or isn't perfect.
     
  15. Dec 8, 2004 #14
    All I'm saying is that if the conception of perfection is possible, wouldn't this also hold true for a God which created and exists within the same realm? The realm of concepts is the realm of standards, so why shouldn't God be on at least equal par with the standards He creates? You want proof? ... This is logical at least anyway.
     
  16. Dec 9, 2004 #15
    "The Perfect and the Perfect are one Perfect, not two. Nay are none."

    from the Book of the Law by Aleister Crowley
     
  17. Dec 9, 2004 #16

    AiA

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    God being perfect is logical, I'm not doubting that, but there's no proof for it, the way I see it, arguments for God are nothing more than last resorts arguments, "Where did the universe come from, if mattar can't be created or destroyed then how was it created and how will it be destroyed, it must be God." emphasis on the "it must be", this proves nothing but that until we find more logical explanations (if ever) this is just a quick fix explanation.
     
  18. Dec 10, 2004 #17
    Are you looking for proof of God? Or, that God is perfect? Is this the argument you're using to try and disprove God?
     
  19. Dec 10, 2004 #18

    AiA

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    a proof of God being perfect is a proof of God, and tahts what I'm looking for.
     
  20. Dec 10, 2004 #19

    Tom Mattson

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    AiA,

    You are asking for a proof of a characteristic of a hypothetical being whose existential qualities cannot be objectively demonstrated by anyone.

    What's the point?
     
  21. Dec 10, 2004 #20
    About all you can do is speculate on it I would think and try to ascertain if perfection was possible first. And if you could, then it would be a matter of acknowledging that perfection stems from that which created it. And, while I believe perfection exists in theory (in the realm of concepts and absolutes that is), I still don't know if that's enough to say that God did it. It's getting close though I think. :wink:
     
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