# Proven

1. Dec 8, 2003

### Gale

Proven....

Can anything really be proven... i mean thats sorta the purpose of logic and all... to prove or disprove that... but i dunno... i'm not sure if anything can be proven... or at least... can you prove something to someone else...

2. Dec 8, 2003

### chroot

Staff Emeritus
Given a set of axioms, yes, many things can be proven. The axioms themselves, however, cannot be proven and must be assumed.

- Warren

3. Dec 8, 2003

### Gale

right..... so proofs are only to believed if their axioms are... and if you can't prove an axiom true... well i mean, you can't cause its an axiom, but like... i dunno... it just seems sort of unnverving to me. What's true? i dunno... i guess really, the whole concept of logic doens't make sense to me...

4. Dec 8, 2003

### photon

Oh ya. I know this one. If you want to hear it, scroll down and read. But I'm warning you, make sure you're ready for the truth.

EDIT: That's kinda what I mean when I say we have a lot of information but very little base to put it on.

Last edited: Dec 8, 2003
5. Dec 8, 2003

### Gale

yeah yeah warren's right.... proove it! i mean, if we need to assume certaing things in order to prove something... i dunno, that seems a but off... i don't question that it works or anything... i mean thats like the whole scientific method... but i don't know... is there some other way to do it?

6. Dec 8, 2003

### photon

Oh ya, I know the other way too. Go without sleep for six days straight eating very little if not nothing. At about 1AM of the last day, superior beings from another universe come and tell you everything there is to know about everything. Trust me on this one. It's happened to me.

7. Dec 8, 2003

Staff Emeritus
Gale, when you prove theorems from a good set of axioms, what you have is a set of ideas that are guaranteed to hang together logically. That may not sound like much but it's a darn sight more than all the people who spout about liberty this and humanism that, and have no control over whether their words mean the same thing or not.

Trouble is, a good set of axioms is hard to find. Euclid found one 2300 years ago, and with a few added pieces, we're still using it. People have tried to axiomatize quantum mechanics, and a few things have been learned, but it's a hard slog; been going on for like 50 years now and still not complete.

When somebody tells you he's axiomatized human society, stay away from him. He's crazy and might be violent.

8. Dec 8, 2003

### photon

Ya the superior beings told me all that.

Any one who is trying to axiomatize society is destined to be a dictator.

9. Dec 8, 2003

### Iacchus32

The only way you can prove anything is to prove it to yourself. It's like how do you know 1 + 1 = 2 if you can't see (and hence prove) it for yourself?

10. Dec 9, 2003

### Mentat

Gale,
The very idea of "proof" is based on an axiom: that there is such a thing as truth.

If there is no truth then there is no need of proof, since validity may be established without ever actually "proving" something.

And, since the existence of "truth" cannot be found logically, neither can the ability to "prove" something.

11. Dec 9, 2003

### Njorl

All proofs are dependent upon some axiomatic definitions.

Let's assume the opposite. There is some idea that can be proved without making any assumptions. How do you prove it? With words? You are assuming definitions of the words, and assuming the audience has the same definition. Any symbolic communication will make these assumptions.

The most very fundamental axioms are the agreements of a common symbolic language. Interestingly, as many of the arguments on this board show, the assumtion of a common language is not always correct. - even from people born and raised in the same country. There are theories that eventually, the precision and consistancy of language can be a limiting factor of knowledge.

Njorl

12. Dec 9, 2003

### wasteofo2

I think, therefore I am.

13. Dec 10, 2003

### HeavensWarFire

Logic makes perfect sense

Without logic, there would not be progress. Perhaps you are a kid, and you really arent in the real world, so naturally your ill developed mind can not possibly comprehend the strides that have been made medically speaking as a result of a relentless application of logical thought, and analysis. [I advise you to watch the movie "Master and Commander." It will give you an appreciation for medicine. Again, another product that has resulted from logical thinking, as opposed to superstiteous mumble jumble.]

People who generally war against logic are generally people who are themselves deficient in it, hence their resentment of it. Christians seem to come to mind. They hate anything remotely suggesting rational thought processes of any kind, for if they for a second adhered to the rules of correct thinking, they would be forced to forfeit some of their most cherished tenets. Hence, religion is always based on manipulation of one's fears, and ignorance of what is on the other side of death. I dont honestly think, i have ever met a truly logical "Theist" of any kind.

Sure, many well, supposedly educated Theologians dip their toes in the pond of secular thought, and take what they find somehow instrumental to their system of abstractions, but they fail to truly understand what they steal from the world of the Devil. Saint Augustine, and Thomas Aquinus, for example, all stole from Plato, and Aristotle, and they all worked what they stole into their system of thought so as to reduce the amount of obvious stupidity in their overall structure of abstractions.

Even in modern day fundamentalism, you see this tendency to dip in the pond of Satan, in the pond of the world, in the waters of secular thought, and incorporate what they steal into their agenda of political rhetoric, and propaganda. Anything to keep the masses in ignorance. Hence their double dealing between the temporal, and secular realms, as if they were of one kingdom. Logic/reason, is the eternal enemy of Faith. Period.

Logic is not always without a fact. Some premises are based on facts, hence the soundness of the conclusion is only gauranteed if it is the case that the whole fabric of your "arguement" has all the necessary facts to warrant the conclusion that arises as a result.

For example, if you accept the what the symbol "2," and "+" stand for, then you should in theory accept the following expression as an unquestionable fact: "2+2=4." This is pure logic. If however disagreement arises, it is only because there is a misunderstanding of what any of the terms mean in an equation.

What makes the use of logic often times a rather esotaric application is the fact that the mind is dominated more by ignorance than knowledge, hence there are many gaps in our over-all system of rational perspective. We are limited. We do not know the absolute boundaries of many things, hence it often times difficult to disprove, or prove certain things, like whether or not space can ever be seperate, or to say the least understood, apart from matter. There are many questions that are not resolved, and i suppose logically speaking, many questions will never be resolved due to the nature of life, and of how the mind processes thought in general. For example, will we ever know how much space there is in the Universe? Do we have a soul? If so, what is the nature of the soul? Is there a GOD? If so, then what is the Nature of GOD? Is GOD knowable? Or he/she an eternal mystery?

Overall, logic is the only real tool man has. Deprive a human being from the chance, and ability, to apply logical thinking to life, and you end up with a helpless animal that has noththing but emotions to guide them in their decision making goals. Science would have been an impossibility without logic.

14. Dec 10, 2003

### HeavensWarFire

I forgot a piece

It seems like in my attempt to give a rebuttal, i forgot to specify the object of my rebuttal. This being the case, i will repost to the following thoughts:
Without logic, there would not be progress. Perhaps you are a kid, and you really arent in the real world, so naturally your ill developed mind can not possibly comprehend the strides that have been made medically speaking as a result of a relentless application of logical thought, and analysis. [I advise you to watch the movie "Master and Commander." It will give you an appreciation for medicine. Again, another product that has resulted from logical thinking, as opposed to superstiteous mumble jumble.]

People who generally war against logic are generally people who are themselves deficient in it, hence their resentment of it. Christians seem to come to mind. They hate anything remotely suggesting rational thought processes of any kind, for if they for a second adhered to the rules of correct thinking, they would be forced to forfeit some of their most cherished tenets. Hence, religion is always based on manipulation of one's fears, and ignorance of what is on the other side of death. I dont honestly think, i have ever met a truly logical "Theist" of any kind.

Sure, many well, supposedly educated Theologians dip their toes in the pond of secular thought, and take what they find somehow instrumental to their system of abstractions, but they fail to truly understand what they steal from the world of the Devil. Saint Augustine, and Thomas Aquinus, for example, all stole from Plato, and Aristotle, and they all worked what they stole into their system of thought so as to reduce the amount of obvious stupidity in their overall structure of abstractions.

Even in modern day fundamentalism, you see this tendency to dip in the pond of Satan, in the pond of the world, in the waters of secular thought, and incorporate what they steal into their agenda of political rhetoric, and propaganda. Anything to keep the masses in ignorance. Hence their double dealing between the temporal, and secular realms, as if they were of one kingdom. Logic/reason, is the eternal enemy of Faith. Period.

Logic is not always without a fact. Some premises are based on facts, hence the soundness of the conclusion is only gauranteed if it is the case that the whole fabric of your "arguement" has all the necessary facts to warrant the conclusion that arises as a result.

For example, if you accept the what the symbol "2," and "+" stand for, then you should in theory accept the following expression as an unquestionable fact: "2+2=4." This is pure logic. If however disagreement arises, it is only because there is a misunderstanding of what any of the terms mean in an equation.

What makes the use of logic often times a rather esotaric application is the fact that the mind is dominated more by ignorance than knowledge, hence there are many gaps in our over-all system of rational perspective. We are limited. We do not know the absolute boundaries of many things, hence it often times difficult to disprove, or prove certain things, like whether or not space can ever be seperate, or to say the least understood, apart from matter. There are many questions that are not resolved, and i suppose logically speaking, many questions will never be resolved due to the nature of life, and of how the mind processes thought in general. For example, will we ever know how much space there is in the Universe? Do we have a soul? If so, what is the nature of the soul? Is there a GOD? If so, then what is the Nature of GOD? Is GOD knowable? Or he/she an eternal mystery?

Overall, logic is the only real tool man has. Deprive a human being from the chance, and ability, to apply logical thinking to life, and you end up with a helpless animal that has noththing but emotions to guide them in their decision making goals. Science would have been an impossibility without logic.

15. Dec 10, 2003

Re: Logic makes perfect sense

But have you ever met LogicalAthiest???

16. Dec 10, 2003

### Descartes

Re: Logic makes perfect sense

For such a proponent of logical thought, you surely seemed to forfeit those ideas when arriving to such a conclusion; indeed, the above reads more like a diatribe than anything else. You were somehow able to conclude that all Christians are irrational and illogical in their thought processes, and they can't adhere to the "rules" of "correct thinking."

Last edited: Dec 10, 2003
17. Dec 10, 2003

### Mentat

This statement will always present itself as true to the person who says it, but it needn't mean a thing to the people s/he says it to (I started a thread on that statement some time ago...well, it lasted over 20 pages IIRC).

18. Dec 10, 2003

### chroot

Staff Emeritus
Some people hold that there are exactly three irrefutable statements:

1) I exist.
2) I am conscious.
3) Whatever exists has the characteristics that it has.

To refute any of these three statements, you'd first have to assume them true. If you say "I do not exist", who is speaking? If you say "I am not conscious", how can you speak? (Of anything?) If you say that a thing is not itself, then what are you speaking of?

- Warren

19. Dec 10, 2003

### Mentat

Re: Logic makes perfect sense

Is that really relevant, HeavensWarFire? Logic exists, and no one has denied it. Truth, OTOH, is based on belief, and cannot logically be shown to exist.

Would you consider me "logical", after having read my posts?

Logic/reason is the eternal enemy of credulity. I do not approve of people using the word "faith" when they don't know what it means.

Prove to me that "facts" exist in the first place, and then we can discuss what comes from them.

Not necessarily. What if you were talking to someone who happened to think only in terms of Quantum Mechanics (this is a thought experiment, not a real possibility in practice)? This person could tell you that 2 particles + 2 more particles could easily yield 5 or more particles.

Do you believe this?

If so, do you believe you can do this without using logic?

If not, are you sure your complete credulity in logic isn't hindering you in some way? Is this not the very "blind faith" that you so despise?

Oh, and I saved this one for last, cuz it's what predisposed me to a negative view of you (aside from the constant cut-downs on religion):

I'm 15 years old, and am indeed versed in many of the applications of logic and science throughout history. Gale17 is also unusually intelligent, so I would be careful of judging someone because of their age...

Especially in a Forum where personal remarks are not very well accepted.

20. Dec 10, 2003

### Descartes

Re: Re: Logic makes perfect sense

You're only 15? Yet more reason to feel antiquated at 23.

21. Dec 10, 2003

### Mentat

I tend to agree with you, Warren. However, there were some comments on an earlier thread that leave some question of that first one, and maybe even the second one:

1) If you cannot fully define existence (relative to that which can be referred to but yet doesn't exist), then how can you say that you do exist?

2) If you cannot fully define consciousness (relative to that which is unconscious, or conscious at one level but not at others) then how can you be positive that you are (this one is not nearly as strong, but it's been mentioned anyway, so I figured I'd mention it).

Anyway, I can already think of ways around these objections, and so I guess you are right, Warren.

22. Dec 10, 2003

### Mentat

Re: Re: Re: Logic makes perfect sense

"Antiquated"? At only 23? Hmm...well, I guess you have a right to, even though most of the people I know would tell you that "you've got your whole life ahead of you yet".

23. Dec 10, 2003

### Mentat

Re: Re: Logic makes perfect sense

LOL!!

Man, I hope not, for his sake [b(] .

24. Dec 10, 2003

### Gale

OOOOOOK...........

Well HeavensWarFire..... I guess you can say its because i'm a kid... though really i think its irrelevant. My "ill developed" mind is just unable to comprehend logic....

Right... so, i wasn't refuting logic, or denying it or anything like that. I just wanted to make some more sense of it. Again, i don't doubt logic at all... it works. But it just seems like... i dunno... shakey. I wasn't implying anything about religions at all... Though, now that i think of it... there's an interesting angle there. Would say, an omnipotent being have logic? or use logic or whatever?

But basically my only issue with like "proving things true" or what have you... is maybe actually the nature of axioms... It seems like so...... human..? i dunno what i'm trying to say actually... but assure you it has nothing to do with my being some underdeveloped immature kid.

25. Dec 11, 2003

### HeavensWarFire

Oh boy

Nice to know there's young minds living in the confines of a sheltered environment.

I hadnt expected an actual dealing with so many ill-prepared posts. But, the such is the nature of humanity, no?

To start off, i will make a reference to the actual of object of my commentary:

First off, when you make a claim, follow it up with what is called "reasons." This is a part of what is called "having an intelligent conversation." If you can not give "reasons" for anything that you are so inclined to lay down, then in what way should anyone respect you?

Here's an example of "irrational dialogue" for all of you wishing to be rational creatures:

A man steps into a bar, and he sits next to a guy, and the first thing out of his mouth is, "The earth is a stationary box."

To this utterance, the second guy says, "Oh really? And on what grounds do you base that on?"

The guy that just steps in, he just counters by saying, "The earth is a stationary box."

This is not rational dialogue. Even in a court of law, if you are gonna accuse a person of a crime, you give what is called evidance. You dont just drag a person into a court room, and say, "he is guilty" without then giving the jury, and the Judge reasons for you making that accusation.

The point here kiddies, is that you must then follow up any claim with a set of reasons.

For this reason, it helps, if you can back this up:

All i see, from your above, is a set of claims without a basis.

Faith, is irrational. There is no rationality for a belief, hence by default, Christians are irrational since they have a Faith in something that is not at all like Science. If Faith was based on pure logic, on pure science, then why have Faith? Why not just prove something, rather than just accepting something, and hoping you are right when you die? Isn't this kinda like gambling where you just put yur chips on a certain color marker, and hope you win? How logical is that? You might as well believe, and have Faith, that the earth is a box.

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2003