Psssssst hey you yes you click me

  • #1

Main Question or Discussion Point

Psssssst...hey you...yes you....click me

So you've clicked me and you're currently reading this sentence.

However, the sentence above did not exist while you were still reading it, because you did not get to the fullstop.

This means that the above sentence was false while you were reading it.

Does it instantly became true after you finished reading it? No. The sentence said "currently" so it could only be true while you are in the act of reading it. But it's false while you're reading it because of what I stated above.

(By the way, this is my very first post,and I thought a philosophy forum might be a great place since I've always thought about things like this and I always come up with (frivolous ?) pet theories)
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Kinda like when a tree falls over in the forest and no one is there to see and hear it; does the tree really fall over making a noise? Its this way of thinking that mathmatic's needs so that it may evolve. :approve:
 
  • #3
PerennialII
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Yep, the verification problem of epistemology with a modern twist. Makes wonder what is the role of the database for the argument.
 
  • #4
"Yep, the verification problem of epistemology with a modern twist"

Well, I'm not aware of this "problem" you're referring to. Could you please elaborate ? Thanks.
 
  • #5
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The problem of self reference

---This statement is false---

If the above statement is false then it is true but if it is true than it is false yet if it is false it is true...

The universe is also a self referencing sytem. It is a mirror from head to foot and this is where the paradox of infinity comes into existence.
 
  • #6
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Delusive. The sentence above that I read exists, but my eyes do not have the capacity of seeing everything at once.
 
  • #7
Evo
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RAD4921 said:
---This statement is false---

If the above statement is false then it is true but if it is true than it is false yet if it is false it is true...
Nope. It would simply be true that the statement is false, it does not change the statement into a true statement. :rolleyes:
 
  • #8
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Poetic dreamer said:
So you've clicked me and you're currently reading this sentence.

However, the sentence above did not exist while you were still reading it, because you did not get to the fullstop.
The sentence existed as soon as you wrote it. :uhh:

This means that the above sentence was false while you were reading it.
Uhm, no. It was true while I was reading it and it will be true every time I read it.

Does it instantly became true after you finished reading it? No. The sentence said "currently" so it could only be true while you are in the act of reading it. But it's false while you're reading it because of what I stated above.
:confused: This makes no sense to me, sorry.
 
  • #9
dekoi
I think you're making the mistake of stating that everything is contingent upon you.

If a tree falls and you're not there to see it, it still falls. The tree falling is not contingent upon the human being. If all humans suddenly died, the color blue would still be real.
 
  • #10
dekoi said:
I think you're making the mistake of stating that everything is contingent upon you.

If a tree falls and you're not there to see it, it still falls. The tree falling is not contingent upon the human being. If all humans suddenly died, the color blue would still be real.
:uhh: This could go on and on. If everyone dies then who really is here to call blue, blue? Then is blue realy blue or is it nothing?
 
  • #11
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lordinfamous said:
:uhh: This could go on and on. If everyone dies then who really is here to call blue, blue? Then is blue realy blue or is it nothing?
It's blue, or whatever frequency/wavelength we call "blue" has, the actual name itself is meaningless, the frequency will be there no matter what.

Just as with the stupid tree falling in the forest scenario. The tree falling creates sound waves, just because no one is there to hear them doesn't mean they were not there. duh Dekoi, I agree with you.
 
  • #12
PerennialII
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"Yep, the verification problem of epistemology with a modern twist"

Well, I'm not aware of this "problem" you're referring to. Could you please elaborate ? Thanks.
As the post before mine stated about the tree falling over issue -- its a conundrum you typically encounter in epistemology, if a claim can not be verified in some way, how can it be justified, or lead to a valid theory ? We know it from past experience but the confusion is caused by the lack of verification (which also leads to other notorious problems like the Hume's one).
 
  • #13
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Good point

Evo said:
Nope. It would simply be true that the statement is false, it does not change the statement into a true statement. :rolleyes:
I must agree with your simple reasoning. I got the sentence from a philosophy book and this wasn't brought to attention. On the other hand, if one tackles the issue of the statement being true or false as either being true or false (one or the other) the self reference problem comes into existence. However, I do agree that the statement is true that it is false. :smile:
 
  • #14
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Evo said:
Just as with the stupid tree falling in the forest scenario. The tree falling creates sound waves, just because no one is there to hear them doesn't mean they were not there. duh Dekoi, I agree with you.
Just becase there are sound waves in the air doesn't mean there is a sound. Sound i think is dependent on something hearing it. When the tree falls sure sound waves emit but is there a "sound," Im not so sure there is. Am I making any sense?
 
  • #15
dekoi
AeroFunk said:
Just becase there are sound waves in the air doesn't mean there is a sound. Sound i think is dependent on something hearing it. When the tree falls sure sound waves emit but is there a "sound," Im not so sure there is. Am I making any sense?
You're trying to use technicalities and the wording of the argument to prove your own argument. The question is not really asking whether there is sound (as a proper definition of "sound") but is actually questioning whether it happened at all. Therefore, we are questioning its occurrence, and not the things it emits or produces (such as sound waves). Who cares whether there is "sound"? The question is, 'Did it happen if noone saw it?' To which the answer is: Of course.
 
  • #16
PerennialII
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He may be sinking into a technicality, but the base argument still holds. It's not really all that relevant when talking about "simplistic" issues but in the scientific method overall ... a different deal.
 
  • #17
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AeroFunk said:
Just becase there are sound waves in the air doesn't mean there is a sound. Sound i think is dependent on something hearing it. When the tree falls sure sound waves emit but is there a "sound," Im not so sure there is. Am I making any sense?
How on earth can you not be sure there is a sound? What scientific evidence do you have that would support the notion that a tree falling in a forest would not make a sound? None?

Here is the definition of sound. It is not dependent on someone hearing it.

The first two definitions of sound:

1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. (notice here is says "capable")

2.Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sound

Sound is not dependent on someone hearing it. It is there regardless.

This from Princeton

3. sound -- (mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them")

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=sound [Broken]

Can you show me one single study that would indicate that a tree falling in a forest would make no sound? If you have any such scientific evidence, I would be interested in seeing it. All scientific evidence AFAIK proves that it would make a sound.

What is the point of wasting time discussing it? What good does it do? What does this kind of discussion have to do with advancing science or understanding? What could possibly be a benefit from wondering about something like this? Unless you can show me scientific evidence that a tree could fall in a forest and NOT make a sound, it's nonsense.

Why not ask, if the sun is shining, but we're blind, is there still light? Uhm, yes, we just can't see it.
 
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  • #18
this thread reminds me of the viennese mathematician Kurt Godel, who also stated that there are curious paradoxes in logic. for example, consider the statement "This sentence is false." If the sentence is true, then it follows that it is false. If the sentence is false, then the sentence is true. Or consider the statement "I am a liar." Then I am a liar only if I tell the truth. Godel then formulated the statement "This sentence cannot be proved true." If the sentence is correct, than it cannot be proved to be correct.
 
  • #19
PerennialII
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this thread reminds me of the viennese mathematician Kurt Godel, who also stated that there are curious paradoxes in logic. for example, consider the statement "This sentence is false." If the sentence is true, then it follows that it is false. If the sentence is false, then the sentence is true. Or consider the statement "I am a liar." Then I am a liar only if I tell the truth. Godel then formulated the statement "This sentence cannot be proved true." If the sentence is correct, than it cannot be proved to be correct.
Interesting points, these go into the heart of the issue rather than the physics arguments. This does not have that much to do with physics but doing physics, and as such, with the scientific method, logic, epistemology etc.
 
  • #20
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lordinfamous said:
Kinda like when a tree falls over in the forest and no one is there to see and hear it; does the tree really fall over making a noise? Its this way of thinking that mathmatic's needs so that it may evolve. :approve:
I've never understood the concept of the tree falling over, but nobody being there to hear it so therefore it made no noise. I've always thought that even though nobody heard it fall, it still made a noise. Because it would have make a noise falling over, regardless of whether anybody was there to hear it. Isn't that right? I don't even know why that is a question one has to ponder about. Obviously, it made a noise.
 
  • #21
PerennialII
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To get to the point I'd forget about the tree and replace it instead e.g. with quantum mechanical phenomena ... still as obvious ?
 
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  • #22
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dekoi said:
The question is, 'Did it happen if noone saw it?' To which the answer is: Of course.
But the question to that answer is, how would you know if no-one saw it?
 
  • #23
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Jikx said:
But the question to that answer is, how would you know if no-one saw it?
So, if you question if the tree even fell, what's the point of wondering what could prevent it from making a sound?
 
  • #24
loseyourname
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Evo said:
What is the point of wasting time discussing it? What good does it do? What does this kind of discussion have to do with advancing science or understanding? What could possibly be a benefit from wondering about something like this? Unless you can show me scientific evidence that a tree could fall in a forest and NOT make a sound, it's nonsense.

Why not ask, if the sun is shining, but we're blind, is there still light? Uhm, yes, we just can't see it.
Well, the question was originally formulated to get the asker to question whether sound is really only longitudinal waves propogated through a medium, or whether sound is actually the subjective perception created in the mind by the impact of these waves on a sensory device capable of detecting them.

If you go with the latter definition, then the tree makes no sound if no one is present to hear it. Apparently the dictionaries you've found do not go with this definition.
 
  • #25
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loseyourname said:
Well, the question was originally formulated to get the asker to question whether sound is really only longitudinal waves propogated through a medium, or whether sound is actually the subjective perception created in the mind by the impact of these waves on a sensory device capable of detecting them.

If you go with the latter definition, then the tree makes no sound if no one is present to hear it. Apparently the dictionaries you've found do not go with this definition.
Yeah, I know, and this is one of the problems I have with "modern philosophy".
 

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