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Psssssst hey you yes you click me

  1. Nov 16, 2004 #1
    Psssssst...hey you...yes you....click me

    So you've clicked me and you're currently reading this sentence.

    However, the sentence above did not exist while you were still reading it, because you did not get to the fullstop.

    This means that the above sentence was false while you were reading it.

    Does it instantly became true after you finished reading it? No. The sentence said "currently" so it could only be true while you are in the act of reading it. But it's false while you're reading it because of what I stated above.

    (By the way, this is my very first post,and I thought a philosophy forum might be a great place since I've always thought about things like this and I always come up with (frivolous ?) pet theories)
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 16, 2004 #2
    Kinda like when a tree falls over in the forest and no one is there to see and hear it; does the tree really fall over making a noise? Its this way of thinking that mathmatic's needs so that it may evolve. :approve:
     
  4. Nov 16, 2004 #3

    PerennialII

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    Yep, the verification problem of epistemology with a modern twist. Makes wonder what is the role of the database for the argument.
     
  5. Nov 16, 2004 #4
    "Yep, the verification problem of epistemology with a modern twist"

    Well, I'm not aware of this "problem" you're referring to. Could you please elaborate ? Thanks.
     
  6. Nov 16, 2004 #5
    The problem of self reference

    ---This statement is false---

    If the above statement is false then it is true but if it is true than it is false yet if it is false it is true...

    The universe is also a self referencing sytem. It is a mirror from head to foot and this is where the paradox of infinity comes into existence.
     
  7. Nov 16, 2004 #6
    Delusive. The sentence above that I read exists, but my eyes do not have the capacity of seeing everything at once.
     
  8. Nov 16, 2004 #7

    Evo

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    Nope. It would simply be true that the statement is false, it does not change the statement into a true statement. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Nov 16, 2004 #8

    Evo

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    The sentence existed as soon as you wrote it. :uhh:

    Uhm, no. It was true while I was reading it and it will be true every time I read it.

    :confused: This makes no sense to me, sorry.
     
  10. Nov 16, 2004 #9
    I think you're making the mistake of stating that everything is contingent upon you.

    If a tree falls and you're not there to see it, it still falls. The tree falling is not contingent upon the human being. If all humans suddenly died, the color blue would still be real.
     
  11. Nov 16, 2004 #10
    :uhh: This could go on and on. If everyone dies then who really is here to call blue, blue? Then is blue realy blue or is it nothing?
     
  12. Nov 16, 2004 #11

    Evo

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    It's blue, or whatever frequency/wavelength we call "blue" has, the actual name itself is meaningless, the frequency will be there no matter what.

    Just as with the stupid tree falling in the forest scenario. The tree falling creates sound waves, just because no one is there to hear them doesn't mean they were not there. duh Dekoi, I agree with you.
     
  13. Nov 17, 2004 #12

    PerennialII

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    As the post before mine stated about the tree falling over issue -- its a conundrum you typically encounter in epistemology, if a claim can not be verified in some way, how can it be justified, or lead to a valid theory ? We know it from past experience but the confusion is caused by the lack of verification (which also leads to other notorious problems like the Hume's one).
     
  14. Nov 17, 2004 #13
    Good point

    I must agree with your simple reasoning. I got the sentence from a philosophy book and this wasn't brought to attention. On the other hand, if one tackles the issue of the statement being true or false as either being true or false (one or the other) the self reference problem comes into existence. However, I do agree that the statement is true that it is false. :smile:
     
  15. Nov 17, 2004 #14
    Just becase there are sound waves in the air doesn't mean there is a sound. Sound i think is dependent on something hearing it. When the tree falls sure sound waves emit but is there a "sound," Im not so sure there is. Am I making any sense?
     
  16. Nov 18, 2004 #15
    You're trying to use technicalities and the wording of the argument to prove your own argument. The question is not really asking whether there is sound (as a proper definition of "sound") but is actually questioning whether it happened at all. Therefore, we are questioning its occurrence, and not the things it emits or produces (such as sound waves). Who cares whether there is "sound"? The question is, 'Did it happen if noone saw it?' To which the answer is: Of course.
     
  17. Nov 18, 2004 #16

    PerennialII

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    He may be sinking into a technicality, but the base argument still holds. It's not really all that relevant when talking about "simplistic" issues but in the scientific method overall ... a different deal.
     
  18. Nov 22, 2004 #17

    Evo

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    How on earth can you not be sure there is a sound? What scientific evidence do you have that would support the notion that a tree falling in a forest would not make a sound? None?

    Here is the definition of sound. It is not dependent on someone hearing it.

    The first two definitions of sound:

    1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. (notice here is says "capable")

    2.Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sound

    Sound is not dependent on someone hearing it. It is there regardless.

    This from Princeton

    3. sound -- (mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them")

    http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=sound

    Can you show me one single study that would indicate that a tree falling in a forest would make no sound? If you have any such scientific evidence, I would be interested in seeing it. All scientific evidence AFAIK proves that it would make a sound.

    What is the point of wasting time discussing it? What good does it do? What does this kind of discussion have to do with advancing science or understanding? What could possibly be a benefit from wondering about something like this? Unless you can show me scientific evidence that a tree could fall in a forest and NOT make a sound, it's nonsense.

    Why not ask, if the sun is shining, but we're blind, is there still light? Uhm, yes, we just can't see it.
     
  19. Nov 24, 2004 #18
    this thread reminds me of the viennese mathematician Kurt Godel, who also stated that there are curious paradoxes in logic. for example, consider the statement "This sentence is false." If the sentence is true, then it follows that it is false. If the sentence is false, then the sentence is true. Or consider the statement "I am a liar." Then I am a liar only if I tell the truth. Godel then formulated the statement "This sentence cannot be proved true." If the sentence is correct, than it cannot be proved to be correct.
     
  20. Nov 24, 2004 #19

    PerennialII

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    Interesting points, these go into the heart of the issue rather than the physics arguments. This does not have that much to do with physics but doing physics, and as such, with the scientific method, logic, epistemology etc.
     
  21. Nov 25, 2004 #20
    I've never understood the concept of the tree falling over, but nobody being there to hear it so therefore it made no noise. I've always thought that even though nobody heard it fall, it still made a noise. Because it would have make a noise falling over, regardless of whether anybody was there to hear it. Isn't that right? I don't even know why that is a question one has to ponder about. Obviously, it made a noise.
     
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