(PT 1) National Pride

[paul_peciak]

I encounter too many people that are too proud for their own good and the good of the world. Proud to be Canadian, proud to be American, proud to be Polish or Spanish...etc etc etc... I'm proud to be human...

I can never get a valid reason for why people are proud of where they came from or where they live. A typical response I hear is " Proud to be american/canadian(whatever country) 'because we are free' " ...what a joke...there are only varying degrees of freedom from country to country. The platform that the world runs off is so messed up... they make it seem like freedom is a privilege... yet every human is born free ...and simultaneously chained... I think screwing up freedom is the biggest downfall of humanity - imagine a world where truth and knowledge prevailed unconditionally.

Being proud of your nationality creates boarders, it divides people, and this is one of many reasons why we see conflicts around the world and in our own neighborhoods.
Here is a good example of how national pride translates in politics which effects OUR earth. " I told the world, I thought the Kyoto was a lousy deal for America... " - GWB
I'll start a 2nd thread to address this quote.

 

[Panda]

But we are naturally tribal. It is bit like trying to make a cow not be part of a herd but part of global cowdom, it is not in our nature to be part of the bigger picture.
You can look at it in layers, proud of my life success, family, street, area, town, county, country, continent, planet, solar system, universe.
But what's the point of being proud of being human, who are you being proud to?
Everybody wants to be seen to be better than their peers and national pidgeon holing allows us to achieve that on a global scale.
It comes down to human nature. Think yourself lucky that you have the intelect to see how pointless the whole thing is and pity those who believe it.

As for Bush, he doesn't believe what he says, he says it because the proportion population who can't be bothered to examine how the world works will believe it and give him power.

 

[paul_peciak]

Well that is what separates you and I. I like to think that there is a difference between humans and cows and the potential in exerting an impact on the world. However it does seem like a lot of people have cow like tendency's...

I have a different mentality than of what you are talking about... I question everything around me, there is no reason why I should 'mind my own business' and conform, because the world IS my business because it is mine as equally as it is yours... but it seems like people give away their shares.
I'm proud to be human because of the very fact that I don't have to be proud or prove anything to anyone. Instead of being judged by where you come from or what you do or wear, each human can be looked at as a unique piece of chocolate Just because I live in Canada doesn't mean I like hockey and maple syrup. These tribal instincts can be applied to this as well... ONE BIG TRIBE OF UNIQUE HUMANS... I get goosebumps thinking how much could be accomplished this way, - Instead humans waste time over non sense... paying attention to what other people wear and eat and do, being afraid to be different... we are absorbed in this garbage and it tends to restrain people from true potential and their natural inclinations.

 

[russ_watters]

If you were born in africa or eastern Europe, you'd have a much different perspective on national pride.

Btw, the quote is not very descriptive, but Kyoto is bad for the world for the same reason that it is bad for the US (overemphasis on the US for a problem that requires a global solution). When you implement something that is fundamentally flawed, it is worse than doing nothing because it wastes decades of time.

 

[paul_peciak]

Russ - what does Africa or eastern Europe have to do with a change in focus? It doesn't matter where you are from...why are Canadians and Americans so proud? My parents are from Poland, I've spent many summers there... so its safe to say that I've been culturally exposed first hand... and I do not see your logic?

Its funny that over 160 nations have found nothing fundamentally flawed about the Kyoto Protocol. How is Kyoto bad for the world? The US is a HUGE contributer to this problem that is why it is important the US to get there s**t together.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I encounter too many people that are too proud for their own good and the good of the world. Proud to be Canadian, proud to be American, proud to be Polish or Spanish...etc etc etc... I'm proud to be human...

I can never get a valid reason for why people are proud of where they came from or where they live. A typical response I hear is " Proud to be american/canadian(whatever country) 'because we are free' " ...what a joke...there are only varying degrees of freedom from country to country. The platform that the world runs off is so messed up... they make it seem like freedom is a privilege... yet every human is born free ...and simultaneously chained... I think screwing up freedom is the biggest downfall of humanity - imagine a world where truth and knowledge prevailed unconditionally.

Being proud of your nationality creates boarders, it divides people, and this is one of many reasons why we see conflicts around the world and in our own neighborhoods.
Here is a good example of how national pride translates in politics which effects OUR earth. " I told the world, I thought the Kyoto was a lousy deal for America... " - GWB
I'll start a 2nd thread to address this quote.

You will never have a peaceful world until you have knocked the patriotism out of humanity.

George Bernard Shaw

Says it all really.

Patriotism taken too far becomes something akin to racism. Assuming that you are more worthy because of were you were born is the most stupid thing I've ever heard in my life anyway :rofl:

 

[Apost8]

"There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum."
Arthur C. Clarke

 

[russ_watters]

Russ - what does Africa or eastern Europe have to do with a change in focus? It doesn't matter where you are from...why are Canadians and Americans so proud? My parents are from Poland, I've spent many summers there... so its safe to say that I've been culturally exposed first hand... and I do not see your logic?

Didn't you just agree with me? National pride comes mostly history/heritage and current status. Poland's troubled recent past is the reason why there exists less patriotism there than in the US or Canada.

Btw, I visited Poland and Lithuania a few years ago with the US Navy. We were treated very well in Poland but all-but treated as rock-stars in Lituania. It is almost as if they have more national pride in their attempt to emulate us (Lithuania's government is based heavily on American influence) than in their own heritage.

Take Germany for another example. Germany today is a pretty good country. But there is tremendous national guilt over their past.
You will certainly see this as arrogance, but the main reason the people in many wesern countries (and it isn't just the US and Canada) are more proud is because there is more to be proud of.

Its funny that over 160 nations have found nothing fundamentally flawed about the Kyoto Protocol. How is Kyoto bad for the world?

Heh, again, you are almost agreeing with me. The US doesn't like Kyoto mostly because it is bad for the US. Other countries like it mostly because it is good for them! Don't misread that: they don't like it because it is good for the world, just good for them.

I'll address Kyoto in your other thread...

 

[Kurdt]

Take Germany for another example. Germany today is a pretty good country. But there is tremendous national guilt over their past.
You will certainly see this as arrogance, but the main reason the people in many wesern countries (and it isn't just the US and Canada) are more proud is because there is more to be proud of.

Maybe the international perception is that they feel guilty and most of the intellectual community in Germany feel a certain guilt. The average citizen in Germany however does not. If you go into a local bar almost anywhere in Germany you will hea things being discussed at the bar that will make your jaw drop. They still have a tremendous amount of national pride.

Heh, again, you are almost agreeing with me. The US doesn't like Kyoto mostly because it is bad for the US. Other countries like it mostly because it is good for them! Don't misread that: they don't like it because it is good for the world, just good for them.

For the majority of the 160 countries I doubt that they would gain any advantage over the US. The countries the US should have been worried about were China and India and they never signed either. I'd hate to think that the planet would be severely damaged over something so petty as who is the most industrious or whatever threat this is perceived to hold.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Didn't you just agree with me? National pride comes mostly history/heritage and current status. Poland's troubled recent past is the reason why there exists less patriotism there than in the US or Canada.

Btw, I visited Poland and Lithuania a few years ago with the US Navy. We were treated very well in Poland but all-but treated as rock-stars in Lituania. It is almost as if they have more national pride in their attempt to emulate us (Lithuania's government is based heavily on American influence) than in their own heritage.

Take Germany for another example. Germany today is a pretty good country. But there is tremendous national guilt over their past.
You will certainly see this as arrogance, but the main reason the people in many wesern countries (and it isn't just the US and Canada) are more proud is because there is more to be proud of.

Not from where I'm standing. Is that not conceit and arrogance? I have a country and a culture with about 6000 years of recorded culture and history, I'd say I have more to be proud of, but then I realized the damage nationalism or patriotism could do about the time I was 8 or 9, from studying history.

Personally I think: what makes you so great? About every country, give me enough time and I'll show you how at the end of the day we're all pretty much the same the world over, some just tend to have a ludicrously overinflated self opinion, which is what intrinsically leads to racism and at its worst expression to war.Raccism is something you have had a long history of I might add as is lately the tendency to war, seems like GBS was right.

It's small step from patriotism to nationalism to racism. Some people leapfrog the nationalism bit and go straight to racism. Personally I think humility and respect is the greatest mark of worth in any country. Far better than it's level of patriotism, humility and respect don't cause wars.

Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

Emma Goldman:

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."

G. K. Chesterton:

Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.

Henry Steele Commager:

Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.

Sydney J. Harris:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Herman Goering

:rofl: that is almost prescient n'est pas?

Sinclair Lewis:

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

Well your not quite there yet but he had a point

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918)

Theodore Roosevelt:

That's just common sense and not really an admonishment of patriotism, but I like it none the less. Almost as if Roosevelt was an Englishman

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe the international perception is that they feel guilty and most of the intellectual community in Germany feel a certain guilt. The average citizen in Germany however does not. If you go into a local bar almost anywhere in Germany you will hea things being discussed at the bar that will make your jaw drop. They still have a tremendous amount of national pride.

I didn't say they don't have national pride. I know they do. But they do also have national guilt over WWII.

For the majority of the 160 countries I doubt that they would gain any advantage over the US.

The advantage is based on the perception of knocking the US down a peg (which it would). That may be unrealistic as they all depend on us for trade, but competitiveness is a big driver.

edit: well, the other big advantage of Kyoto is, of course, its political advantage. By supporting it, they get to look like they are doing something useful without actually doing anything useful. Politically, that's better than gold.

The countries the US should have been worried about were China and India and they never signed either.

Please don't miss my point - it is getting stretched between two different threads. The fact that China (and to a lesser extent India) is missing from the treaty is it's primary flaw.

 

[russ_watters]

Not from where I'm standing. Is that not conceit and arrogance?

Honestly - do you think you can argue me out of my national pride? So what's the point? Sorry, this is not a generic bash-the-US thread and I won't respond to your generic bashes.

I freely acknowleged that having pride in my heritage makes me (and the US in general) come across as arrogant. I'm ok with that. Besides - how is your position any different except that yours is based on disdain for the US and not pride in your own country? Frankly, that seems to me to be latent nationalism (which was until recently an enormous problem in Europe).

 

[J77]

I didn't say they don't have national pride. I know they do. But they do also have national guilt over WWII.

National guilt?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rubbish.

e2a: russ - I don't even know where to begin in knocking down your comments. Are you basing your comments solely on what you have observed from short visits? And as far as you being OK with coming across as arrogant because of your "heritage", have you been listening to what the world thinks of the US at present?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Honestly - do you think you can argue me out of my national pride? So what's the point? Sorry, this is not a generic bash-the-US thread and I won't respond to your generic bashes.

I freely acknowleged that having pride in my heritage makes me (and the US in general) come across as arrogant. I'm ok with that. Besides - how is your position any different except that yours is based on disdain for the US and not pride in your own country? Frankly, that seems to me to be latent nationalism (which was until recently an enormous problem in Europe).

No I think it's impossible to argue with an arrogant, conceited and stubborn person and invariably you can find all three of those traits in the ardent patriot. I personally have never seen any good come of arrogance and conceit in anyone, I find the idea that one person is better than another because of the country he is born in is patronising, ignorant and laughable, and I find the whole notion of patriotism that leads to nationalism as the last resort of the scoundrel, personally I find the whole arrogant thing a mark of naivety and delusion in anyone, and in a countries leaders it's a recipe for disaster.

But then that's obviously just me and my entire nation probably .

Why would anyone have pride in something they had no part of?

At the end of the day reflected glory is merely that, what you see in a mirror, an image, not tangible.

In my opinion a man stands or falls on his own merits and his own merits alone, not those ascribed to him by his own arrogant notion of patriotism.

Where you are born no more makes you better than anyone else than where you went to school.

It's about time people realized this, so that the grown ups can proceed without fragile egos being propped up on a notion that was dead and dying last century after all the wars it caused.

With that in mind I agree 100% with the op, and disagree one hundred percent with Russ, as usual

Patriotism is a futile concept.

Being proud of your country is fine by me, being derisive or setting yourself up as greater than another is pride and arrogance, and not only that it's hoplessely wrong. And pride cometh before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall. Just to throw in another quote.

J77 is right as well, I don't think most Germans have anything to feel guilty about, let's face it most people born During the war were either too young to really know what was going on or are dead. Those that are still alive are becoming a dwindling minority.

Why should the sins of the father have any bearing on the youth?

As for American bashing, only your government, but then they give us so much damned ammunition, I really will have no punching bag when Monsieur Clown Shoes is out of office.:rofl:

 

[paul_peciak]

Russ - I feel like you are dodging some key points... I know WHERE pride comes from... my question is WHY do humans find it is necessary? What is the big deal? What makes you so special? Why are you so proud to be American?(< please answer that, I am very curious)

What do you mean Germany is a PRETTY good country?Americans are the ones that should have tremendous national guilt... slavery, Hiroshima , all the f**king wars it engages in and the children it massacres on a daily basis, pollution...

 

[devil-fire]

i think its kind of funny that people who feel a sense of national pride center that belief often on national heroes and that national heroes are usually people who brought about reform. martin luther king is considered a national hero because of his efforts and accomplishments in national reforms regarding equality. think of where the us would be today if martin luther king only had "U-S-A!, U-S-A!, U-S-A!" running though his head and let a sense of patriotism blind him of the faults of his country.


i think patriotism is often a bad thing for a few reasons. firstly it creates xenophobia, secondly and most ironically, it prevents people from looking critically at the nation they live in and prevent people from wanting to change and improve it. eg. "why are you protesting the government? is the good old US of A not good enough for you? shut up and sit down! this is the best darn place on Earth and I am not going to let anyone screw with that!"- spoken at a protest against segregation

quite often the people with the most national pride serve their national leaders by their willful slavery

 

[devil-fire]

...my question is WHY do humans find it is necessary? What is the big deal? What makes you so special?...

ultimately its because it makes people feel like they are associated with some kind of good, powerful, enviable group, and that somehow this association means that they are good, powerful, enviable people. there is no mystery about the nuts&bolts of patriotism. personally i don't think its different or any more noble then Oprah Winfrey's ideas on improving self esteem for over weight women, 'give yourself 3 compliments each morning, and when you feel bad, remind yourself of your compliments'... actually i think Winfrey's method is a little more noble because at least that one has some basis of logic

so yeah, drop the patriot routine and watch Oprah already

 

[russ_watters]

National guilt?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rubbish.

e2a: russ - I don't even know where to begin in knocking down your comments. Are you basing your comments solely on what you have observed from short visits? And as far as you being OK with coming across as arrogant because of your "heritage", have you been listening to what the world thinks of the US at present?

I don't really know how big of an issue it is, but it most certainly is real: http://surj.stanford.edu/archives/2003-05GermanNational.html [Broken]

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

ultimately its because it makes people feel like they are associated with some kind of good, powerful, enviable group, and that somehow this association means that they are good, powerful, enviable people. there is no mystery about the nuts&bolts of patriotism. personally i don't think its different or any more noble then Oprah Winfrey's ideas on improving self esteem for over weight women, 'give yourself 3 compliments each morning, and when you feel bad, remind yourself of your compliments'... actually i think Winfrey's method is a little more noble because at least that one has some basis of logic

so yeah, drop the patriot routine and watch Oprah already

What brought it home to me how damaging patriotism could be was when I heard of an SAS soldier who refused to return to the gulf after his leave because as he saw it the American commanders and the rank and file were using tactics that were pointless, ie round up the usual suspects and there was a widespread mentallity of the Iraqis being untermenschen or subhuman in the Americans eyes(winning the hearts and minds of no one in other words) That somehow many of those he worked along side considered themselves better than Iraqis; this to me is sad, and it obviously reflects badly on the US as a nation, not that I think every American is stupid or ignorant enough to behave this way, but anyone who does has my contempt.

http://www.refusingtokill.net/UKGulfwar2/BenGriffinTelegraph.htm

SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
The Daily Telegraph

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

Ben Griffin
Ben Griffin told commanders that he thought the Iraq war was illegal

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

The decision marks the first time an SAS soldier has refused to go into combat and quit the Army on moral grounds.

It immediately brought to an end Mr Griffin's exemplary, eight-year career in which he also served with the Parachute Regiment, taking part in operations in Northern Ireland, Macedonia and Afghanistan.

But it will also embarrass the Government and have a potentially profound impact on cases of other soldiers who have refused to fight.

On Wednesday, the pre-trial hearing will begin into the court martial of Flt Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, a Royal Air Force doctor who has refused to return to Iraq for a third tour of duty on the grounds that the war is illegal. Mr Griffin's allegations came as the Foreign Office minister Kim Howells, visiting Basra yesterday, admitted that Iraq was now "a mess".

Mr Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

Mr Griffin eventually told SAS commanders at Hereford that he could not take part in a war which he regarded as "illegal".

He added that he now believed that the Prime Minister and the Government had repeatedly "lied" over the war's conduct.

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," he said. He expected to be labelled a coward and to face a court martial and imprisonment after making what "the most difficult decision of my life" last March.

Instead, he was discharged with a testimonial describing him as a "balanced, honest, loyal and determined individual who possesses the strength of character to have the courage of his convictions".

Last night Patrick Mercer, the shadow minister for homeland security, said: "Trooper Griffin is a highly experienced soldier. This makes his decision particularly disturbing and his views and opinions must be listened to by the Government."

The MoD declined to comment.

For refusal to return to the gulf under these circumstances the SAS gave him an honorable discharge.

 

[russ_watters]

Here's a better article [than the other I posted], with a good segue into another point I wanted to make: http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=31332

The 2006 World Cup may go down in history as the moment when Germans rediscovered patriotism. The recent outpouring of German patriotism has been without doubt the largest since the end of the Second World War. Cities across Germany have been filled with young and not-so-young people waving German flags and painting their faces in the national colours.

Naturally this development has provoked much discussion in the German and international media. Newspaper editorials talk about how good it is that Germans have finally rediscovered their national pride and can shake off their guilty feelings about being German after six angst-filled decades.

It is interesting, in any case, to see an argument aganist patriotism from a German. He says the schools dwell on the negatives of German history. Gee, could that have influenced his ideas on (rejection of) patriotism?

The segue: Can someone explain soccer riots to me? Aren't soccer riots overenthusiastic national pride? This German seems to think so.

 

[Kurdt]

I didn't say they don't have national pride. I know they do. But they do also have national guilt over WWII. The advantage is based on the perception of knocking the US down a peg (which it would). That may be unrealistic as they all depend on us for trade, but competitiveness is a big driver.

I think that is a little xenophobic. People aren't all out to 'get' the US. the problem is that US policies are not very popular outside the US and thus they invite criticism from other people and other countries. I can see why it upsets a lot of citizens of the US when they are prospering and are still being criticised, but if that prosperity comes at the price of selfish policies then you ultimately have to question that in an increasingly global community.

Like you say the biggest problem is that China and India the biggest growing consumers of energy and thus set to be the biggest contributors to global warming haven't signed is appalling. To then use that as an excuse not to sign yourself is even worse. You should be looking to set an example.

edit: well, the other big advantage of Kyoto is, of course, its political advantage. By supporting it, they get to look like they are doing something useful without actually doing anything useful. Politically, that's better than gold. Please don't miss my point - it is getting stretched between two different threads. The fact that China (and to a lesser extent India) is missing from the treaty is it's primary flaw.

The UK are well on their way to surpassing the kyoto agreed emissions cut of 12.5% by 2008-2010 and our economy has not suffered at all. To be honest it wasn't much of a problem in the end. Our economy is not the same I admit but if you can't adapt to this then you're doomed once the fossil fuels run out anyway (if we make it that far).

 

[Anttech]

The segue: Can someone explain soccer riots to me? Aren't soccer riots overenthusiastic national pride? This German seems to think so.

I don't remember ever seeing a *soccer* riot at an international match? They only happen when 1 club meets another.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I don't remember ever seeing a *soccer* riot at an international match? They only happen when 1 club meets another.

We used to have some pretty antisocial fans(UK) But these days riots at matches are practically unheard of, even abroad our reputation is much better than it was, anyway soccer hooligans are morons, if you ask me if they want to meet up with rival gangs and knock out their remaining few brain cells good luck to them. This is another prime example of patriotism gone bad though.

 

[denverdoc]

Geez, most days I have my doubts about humans, and can't find much to be proud of. Others I'm awash with pride.

I believe tribalism has some survival value, but recently saw a show on the Lake Toba supervocano whose eruption decimated anywhere from 60percent to all but a sliver of humanity, that led me to question this belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervolcano#_note-4

The thesis of this show is that during the ensuing struggle for survival over a multi-year volcanic winter, man had to be less clannish and more cooperative with his nearby neighbors. Given the remoteness of the event and scarcity of archeological evidence, IMO the thesis floats but just barely.

What I did find interesting is that based on maternal mitochondrial DNA analysis, there today exists more genetic diversity between neighbors in East Africa than between say scandanavian and mediterranean populations. That science is robust. If one considers tribalism to be another manisfestation of the "selfish gene" , then it needs to function in such a manner as to provide for at least the occasional exchange of genetic material--otherwise inbreeding results. There the need to strike a balance becomes paramount, blood is thicker than water, but incest is taboo. Anyway, my guess is the human brain hung on to some of these tendencies even when the large scale structure of humanity leading to formation of nation-states had changed sufficiently to make these strategies obselete. Its where we still hunker when we fear, and the current rise in xenophobia is proof. Wish i could put together a more coherent thesis on the topic, because its important and deeply unsettling.

My whole life it seems has been poised on the brink of extinction over an argument on how it can best be governed, an insuperable irony, if there ever was one. Now that we seem to have dodged that bullet, nationalistic interests may prevent up from reaching an accord re the mess we are in, whether its heat trapping emissions, lack of water, oil or arable land--the big crunch is coming. I'm hoping the professor who saw in the aftermath of the Lake Toba eruption, evidence that when the chips are down, man will get his act together and a more cooperative paradigm will emerge. But events here in the US, especially the unprecedented "peacetime" arms build-up, leave me doubting.