Questions on _g_ and intelligence

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  • #226
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part 1 of 2

roberth said:
And why do you want to make those predictions and for what purpose? Pre-destine the fate of the lower IQ people? These studies neither help to improve these important matters nor do they help in any way to improve the situation for the people concerned.
You seem to think that IQ tests are a weapon to be used against stupid people. One of the important uses of IQ (previously discussed in this forum - read and learn) testing is to locate individuals who have high cognitive ability so that they can be given encouragement and aid in achieving an education that is appropriate to their abilities. It is for that reason that Harvard led the way to the now standard practice of seeking and recruiting brilliant students for slots in our top universities. In the past, those slots were offered only on the basis of SES.

See my previous posts.
Yeah, really. I have seen that your comments are aggressive towards a science that you obviously have not taken time to understand. Instead of telling me to read your posts, I would like to suggest that you read mine before rehashing material that has been explained in detail, with cited reference sources.

Please give a reference for the above. The quote you gave has been attributed (by Jensen) to Carl Bereiter.

How Brains Think, page 1 by William H. Calvin
Either your source is wrong or mine is wrong. My source is Jensen, A. R. (1998). The g factor: The science of mental ability. Westport, CT: Praeger, page 111
This reminds one of Carl Bereiter's clever definition of "intelligence" as "what you use when you don't know what to do."

Please tell us what recognized psychometric texts confirm your assertion. I am more familiar with the literature than most people and have yet to see a single discussion that asserts anything about "convergent intelligence." Would you provide a definition and a source for the definition? Thank you.

"Convergent thinking is a cognitive style characterized by a tendency to focus on a single best solution to a problem", used by J.P. Guilford, Getzel and Jackson, Wallach and Kogan, Hudson and others.
So, can you tell us why you bothered to type out the quote yet were unwilling to give the name of the publication?

What is the problem here? This is the second time that I have been asked about terminology which should be second nature to a 'Psychologist', but some people on this board have never heard it.
The problem is that the words "convergent thinking" do not appear at a detectable frequency in psychometric papers and textbooks. I just now did a search of the database (Jan 1977 to present) of the journal Intelligence. The phrase "convergent thinking" did not appear even once!

Regarding the _g_ test, I am aware of its correlation significance. The argument in itself is not very difficult to understand. The danger, however, is that you want to use it to predict in areas such as learning rate, job performance, academic performance, income, SES, etc.
Leave out the prediction, it does not help anybody!
I disagree with your opinion. I have already explained how IQ is used to help place intelligent people in top universities. At the other end of the scale, the US military uses IQ to exclude people from military service. You should have already read about this several times, since I have presented it with the source (Detterman). The reason for exclusion, even in time of war, is that our military has found that it is difficult to impossible to properly train recruits below the cut points (the Navy cut is IQ 91). Placing low IQ people in positions where their performance is likely to influence casualty rates is unacceptable. It is similarly silly to send low IQ people off to universities where they cannot hope to do the required work or to have them enroll in a curriculum that is known to have a threshold of performance well above their ability level.

What is a "racial crossing study?" Perhaps a study of Michael Jackson from childhood to present?

"Racial crossing studies focus on black, white and mixed-race children who happen to be raised in similar environmental circumstances".
Why did you present a quote without identifying its source? Are you attempting to appear as well informed when you are not? If your source is a peer reviewed journal or a recognized psychometric textbook, we will understand. If it is now, we will also understand. Why must you continually play the above trick of using quotes without attribution? As a matter of interest, would you also list for us the "racial crossing studies" in question? Did the scientists who conducted those studies actually use the terminology "racial crossing studies?" I think you are reading from general sources and not the papers of the scientists who did the studies.

Please hold back criticizing expressions that you do not know!
I am familiar with the literature and I know that the expression you used was not used in any source that I have seen and that I have read the primary papers on this subject. As a confirmation, I searched for "racial crossing" in the Intelligence database (Jan 1977 to present). The two words were not used together even once.

It is petty and not very productive and only shows the fact that you do not know them (you may know them under a different name).
It might be petty. My point is that you are so unfamiliar with the literature that you are using language that is not being used by researchers. You conveniently make assertions without attributing them to verifiable sources. This all adds up to obvious ignorance of the subject. It is okay that you haven't done your homework, but it is not productive to pretend otherwise.

Scarr and Weinberg conducted a transracial adoption study (there was no mention of racial crossing in the papers I read). The report in 1976 showed the effects of shared environment, which were assumed to be permanent. Somehow you forgot to tell us about the follow-up study in 1986. Why? The report then found that the shared environmental factor was zero. It is now known that the shared environmental factor is present in childhood, but that it vanishes around age 12 to 17. (Plomin gives age 12.)

Does it? So be it. However, has anybody tried to produce a counter-argument? I cannot comment since I do not know this 1986 study.
It is obvious that you are not even familiar with the now common knowledge that the effects of shared environment vanish. I suggest that a good starting point for you would be to carefully read Jensen's The _g_ Factor.

So, they were not able to raise test scores? … and now they should spend less money?
When the stated objective of spending the money was to raise test scores and the result obtained was that test scores did not improve, one must assume that there might be a better way to use that money.
More Money Better Education?
Walter E. Williams, February 1, 1999
New Jersey ranks number one in the nation in terms of expenditures per student ($10,900). Washington, D.C. is a close second at $10,300. If educationists are right, New Jersey and Washington, D.C. should have the highest level of student achievement in the land. Think again. New Jersey ranks 29th in student achievement. As for Washington, D.C., the only thing preventing it from being dead last in student achievement is Mississippi.

Minnesota ranks first in nation in terms of student achievement and Iowa ranks second. If we accepted the more-money-better education sham, we'd think Minnesota and Iowa are really up there in per student expenditures. Think again. Minnesota ranks 27th in expenditure per student ($6,300) and Iowa ranks a lowly 30th ($6,000). There is no relation between expenditures and student performance.


Well, you see that is the problem that I ethically have with your attitude: You now end up with the conclusion that it may be a waste of money to try to bring up the level of people in Kansas City and Detroit. It can never be a waste of money to give people a chance.
Spending more money on schools does not cause test scores to go up. There was no question of "giving people a chance." They had a chance and they had a second chance. The problem is that the people who spend the money don't understand what will and what will not work.
 
  • #227
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part 2 of 2

roberth said:
Furthermore, less ideologically, I am not at all convinced that the mental capabilities of people are predetermined to an extent that there is no hope whatever you do, regardless their test scores.
This depends on how one defines "hope." If you hope to increase _g_ by schooling, the hope is false. If you hope to teach people to the extent that their abilities permit, then that could be done, but only if one first dumps PC ideas.

IQ tests are simply not general enough to justify any decision-making process for individual persons.
Fortunately, you are wrong. IQ tests can and do identify people who (despite their SES, secondary education, race, or other factors) can succeed in the most demanding universities.

Your assertion of damage is unsupported. There is no damage.
Are you really that naive?
Your assertion is hollow and you know it. We can clearly see that you have not supported your claim.

The claim that Feynman ... ...were a scientific fact.

Well, in the story that I remember he actually said it himself.
The author attributed the comment to Feynman. The point is that there is no reason to believe that it was accurate.

You see what you are doing now? You want to prove to all people with an IQ of less or equal than 125 to never try to win the Nobel Prize (by the way, it is not about winning the Nobel Prize, it is about the achievement that goes with it).
I am not doing anything other than pointing out that the 125 claim is silly. You should read the comments (elsewhere in this forum) to see what Jensen had to say about the claim. As for winning the Nobel Prize, do you have any information that even one person has won the prize in a science category with an IQ as low as 125? Intelligence works as a threshold for the grasping of various tasks. Once the threshold is crossed, people can function with the task. I contend that the threshold for doing work that will earn a Nobel Prize is probably around +2 sigma.


Your wording is odd, so I have to guess that you do not believe that the variance in IQ is attributable to genetics. If so, I would like to suggest that your opinion is at odds with the findings of very well conducted research that has shown the value of h^2 as a function of age and which has shown that it can be demonstrated by multiple independent methodologies. Your assertion that scientific findings (such as the value of h^2) cause harm is a personal opinion, not a fact.

I do not only question the validity of these research studies but also question what they are good for. Besides, there is very well conducted research that shows the opposite.
Precisely what is "the opposite?" Please list for us the research studies you have in mind (but intentionally did not reference). Who conducted the studies? What peer reviewed papers contain the results? What were the primary findings? Are those findings accepted as accurate by any respected psychometricians?
 
  • #228
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My final posting to you on this thread

Mandrake said:
This depends on how one defines "hope." If you hope to increase _g_ by schooling, the hope is false. If you hope to teach people to the extent that their abilities permit, then that could be done, but only if one first dumps PC ideas.


Fortunately, you are wrong. IQ tests can and do identify people who (despite their SES, secondary education, race, or other factors) can succeed in the most demanding universities.


Your assertion is hollow and you know it. We can clearly see that you have not supported your claim.


The author attributed the comment to Feynman. The point is that there is no reason to believe that it was accurate.


I am not doing anything other than pointing out that the 125 claim is silly. You should read the comments (elsewhere in this forum) to see what Jensen had to say about the claim. As for winning the Nobel Prize, do you have any information that even one person has won the prize in a science category with an IQ as low as 125? Intelligence works as a threshold for the grasping of various tasks. Once the threshold is crossed, people can function with the task. I contend that the threshold for doing work that will earn a Nobel Prize is probably around +2 sigma.



Precisely what is "the opposite?" Please list for us the research studies you have in mind (but intentionally did not reference). Who conducted the studies? What peer reviewed papers contain the results? What were the primary findings? Are those findings accepted as accurate by any respected psychometricians?
This is totally ridiculous and I therefore will write a final summary to clarify open questions and then stop with this discussion. I no longer wish to waste my time with this intellectual banality of finding references referring to references and the justifying of psychological insight in the context of psychometric tunnel vision.

Summary

In this whole discussion you constantly referred to these self-referential papers in your psychometric database and journal of Intelligence. This explains to me why you lack any wider outlook on the subject and miss common psychological insight.

Several of the references and terms that I quoted or used are from one of my study books that were used as part of a degree in psychology several years ago.

Introduction to Psychology,
The Open University, volume 1
A total of 16 professors and researchers produced that book (and I will not list them here now). You find them on the back cover of the first page of this book.

Regarding the term "divergent and convergent intelligence". How is it possible that I make a simple search in Google on the Internet and find the term and you are not?

Here is a link to one of my hits
Laboratory Exercise for General Experimental Psychology

By the way, it is in fact totally irrelevant to anything where the term comes from, it is its meaning that it important.

I also looked around if I could find something that more or less summarizes my views and knowledge. I found this site

/drives/f/httpd/web/psych/iqnotes.htm

It is from Professor Mackintosh of the Department of Experimental Psychology at the University in Cambridge.

It is only in list form but most people will probably get the contents of the important points. It also mentions Jensen who seems to be so highly regarded by you.
If you do not understand the points or words, or wish to know important references referring to other references which then hopefully refer to your database, then I would suggest to get in touch with them.

Real psychology and the conscientious application of it is a very worthwhile and rewarding endeavor and psychometric methods have their place in it. However, the way you portrayed it, it is one-sided, tunnel-visioned, unethical, damaging, naive and intellectually banal.

Roberth
 
  • #229
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Mandrake:
I disagree. Truth is the only reasonable goal in science.
roberth said:
No, it is not the only one and can never be.
Your comment is an opinion that is not shared by many scientists. Science is about truth. People who don't understand that should go into politics, where dishonesty is commonplace.

Originally Posted by Roberth
Although Raven's test is pretty good, it is not as cultural-free as some people claim. There are several counter studies.

Mandrake:
Why didn't you list the studies? Please list them now. What were the findings that you believe are most significant?

The issue here is not that I have to show them, the issue here is that you do not know them. Look them up in the literature or search on the Internet.
The issue here is that you made an assertion without any support for it. I contend that your comment is incorrect. It makes sense that you don't want to justify it, since you probably cannot. When someone makes an assertion, it is his responsibility to support it, not the responsibility of anyone else. Based on the general level of information you have presented here, it is obvious that you are not informed about the Raven's cultural loading. If you are, why are you hiding your knowledge?

Where am I getting this from? From university study books in Psychology amongst other. It's part of studying psychology. No Conspiracy here.
Mandrake:
And I wonder why you do not list them. Just so we know your sources, please tell us which psychometrics textbooks you have read from cover to cover and tell us which textbooks you implied but failed to list in your comment. Your various comments indicate to me a very limited understanding of this subject.
Now, now, be careful what you say: it is the other way round. So far I have had no problems to follow your assertions but you seem to lack some balanced view of the subject to be able to follow mine.
So, you cannot support your "study books" comment. I am not surprised. You assert, but you do not support. If you are reading undergraduate textbooks, I doubt that you have ever encountered the material from recognized psychometric researchers. You have quoted material that was so old that it was refuted by the researchers who initially reported it and to my amazement, you referenced a guy who died a quarter of a century before the first intelligence test. Is this the kind of material you find in "study books?"

Mandrake:
What do your textbooks define as "inherent intelligence?" It seems to me that there is only one really significant aspect of cognitive performance that is addressed by psychometrics and that is psychometric _g_. Anything beyond that is the subject of a different discussion.

Do you really not know what 'inherent' means?
I didn't ask you the definition of "inherent" did I? Please answer the question I presented. You were critical of the word "intelligence," but you then proceeded to use made up words and phrases that are not found in contemporary psychometric papers. Perhaps you would like to list for us, just two or three peer reviewed papers in this decade that use the words "inherent intelligence?" Where do you get this stuff? Either you have a reference with a definition for it or you made it up. I suspect the latter.
 
  • #230
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Gould discredited

roberth said:
I give you one severe example. There was a 'scientist' called Agassiz who claimed that:
"The brain of the Negro is that of the imperfect brain of a seven months old infant in the womb of a white". Page 127, Ontogeny and Phylogeny, by Stephen Gould.

Mandrake:
What is the reason for your above comment? It appears to be race baiting to me. Why is it important to quote from a person who died 25 years before the first intelligence test? And why would any person quote from the discredited Stephen Gould, who never even demonstrated that he understood factor analysis? Gould used every means possible in "Mismeasure" to distort the truth and to mislead ignorant readers who didn't know any better than to accept his comments at face value.
The example shows how dangerous it can be to use these racial differentiating studies.
No, the example shows that you quoted material from a Swiss guy who died in 1873. How and why did you select that person? Do you think that he was aware of any aspect of modern psychometrics? I consider your use of this material as race baiting and an obvious attempt to avoid a discussion of modern science.

Stephen Gould is discredited? By who? … and what does it change in respect to this point?
If you have read the literature you already know the answer, since Gould has been discredited by many of the most respected psychometricians around the world.

Mandrake said:
To the best of my knowledge, Gould's only attempt to publish in the area was his book Mismeasure of Man. It was a book that was appreciated only by people who didn't know better. I have a homework assignment for you. Please read this link in its entirety:
http://tinyurl.com/43f59
The comments are from the most respected and knowledgable psychometrician alive -- Jensen.

If it is unclear, please read it a second time. Gould played a prominent role in a group called Science for the People and in that group's attack on the theories of Harvard zoologist Edward 0. Wilson, a leader in the development of sociobiology (BioSciences, March, 1976, Vol. 26, No. 3). (Gould was a trouble maker, not a psychological researcher.)

Reflections on Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981):

JOHN B. CARROLL, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill A Retrospective Review in Intelligence 21, 121-134 (1995)

Gould's research on the history of craniometry is interesting and possibly valuable for historians of science. His account of the history of mental testing, however, may be regarded as badly biased, and crafted in such a way as to prejudice the general public and even some scientists against almost any research concerning human cognitive abilities. In this account, he indicts mental testing not only as racially motivated, at least in its beginnings, but more importantly, as ethically and scientifically flawed because it "reifies" the IQ as a single number that places a value on a test result.

It is indeed odd that Gould continues to place the burden of his critique on factor analysis, the nature and purpose of which, I believe, he still fails to understand. Even if factor analysis had never been invented, we would nonetheless have IQ tests and many other kinds of aptitude tests measuring various cognitive abilities. And there would still be "experts" dealing with the construction, analysis, and interpretation of these tests, and behavioral geneticists (Plomin & McClearn, 1993) concerned with the heritability of the traits measured by these tests.


'The 'g' Factor'is a book about human intelligence. In particular, it tries to answer social-environmentalists and methodological solipsists such as Professors Leon Kamin, Steve Gould, Steve Rose and Steve Jones -- the self-appointed arch-critics of 'general intelligence' ('g') today (though only Kamin is himself a psychologist). [Christopher Brand]

Stephen Jay Gould (1983) argued that factor analysis is not an appropriate way of defining the variables underlying test scores, because one solution is statistically as a good as another. Gould was wrong. There are statistical methods (which were well known to specialists at the time) that make it possible to compare the goodness of fit of one factor-analytic solution to another. When these methods are applied, investigators virtually always find a highly reliable first factor.
...
Gould claimed that psychometricians could not distinguish between alternative factor structures. Today they can.

[The Role of Intelligence in Modern Society by Earl Hunt]

Gould is correct in stating that there are alternative methods with the same overall power to account for the correlations among the tests. But he is wrong when he implies that by using an alternative method, an analyst can get rid of g. As Richard Herrnstein liked to say, "You can make g hide, but you can't make it go away."

Gould's position, then, has been thoroughly discredited among scholars, however dominant it remains in the media. Had he kept quiet about The Bell Curve or attacked it on other grounds, his view might have continued to hold sway there. But when he repeated the same arguments in his New Yorker review - which I am told has been triumphantly circulated by nonpsychologists as the canonical refutation of The Bell Curve -he accomplished something that Herrinstein and I could not have done: he made scholars who know what the evidence shows angry enough to go public.

Upstream: Issues: The Bell Curve: The Bell Curve and its Critics
Charles Murray

Commentary, May 1995 v99 n5 p23(8)
 
  • #231
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roberth said:
This is totally ridiculous and I therefore will write a final summary to clarify open questions and then stop with this discussion.
:surprised
Good choice. It offers you an opportunity to save face and avoids the necessity of trying to support claims and quotes that have no known sources.

I no longer wish to waste my time with this intellectual banality of finding references
You wrote material in quotes. If you have the sources to copy, why do you refuse to identify the papers and authors? Why did you once present names of people without any list of papers or textbooks? If you know what you are quoting, you should be able to simply give the references, as I have repeatedly done.

In this whole discussion you constantly referred to these self-referential papers in your psychometric database and journal of Intelligence. This explains to me why you lack any wider outlook on the subject and miss common psychological insight.
My insight is based on having read massive amounts of material for a dozen years. I know what research has been done, who did it, and what it does or does not demonstrate. You apparently have restricted your reading to Gould and some general undergraduate or high school level books on psychology.

Several of the references and terms that I quoted or used are from one of my study books that were used as part of a degree in psychology several years ago.
If your degree in psychology is not a graduate degree, I can understand your obvious confusion. Your comments are not consistent with what is known and reported in present day peer reviewed sources.

Introduction to Psychology, The Open University, volume 1
A total of 16 professors and researchers produced that book (and I will not list them here now). You find them on the back cover of the first page of this book.
Sorry, I don't read "introductory" books. It is unlikely that you can find anything of depth in such a book. I don't blame you for not listing the "professors" as I doubt the names would match those who publish research papers in this field.

Regarding the term "divergent and convergent intelligence". How is it possible that I make a simple search in Google on the Internet and find the term and you are not?
Your use of the term demonstrates the level of material you are using for reference. If you think this is a real psychometric term, please demonstrate it. Intelligence is best represented by _g_.

I also looked around if I could find something that more or less summarizes my views and knowledge. I found this site
/drives/f/httpd/web/psych/iqnotes.htm
It is from Professor Mackintosh of the Department of Experimental Psychology at the University in Cambridge.
It is only in list form but most people will probably get the contents of the important points.
I hope you are not implying that Mackintosh has the same level of understanding of psychometrics that you have demonstrated here. Are you familiar enough with computers to recognize a functional URL? The one you gave is not in the proper format.

Macintosh is best known for his 1995 publication of a book that discussed the details of the Burt affair. It appears that Burt was falsely accused, but possibly sloppy.

It also mentions Jensen who seems to be so highly regarded by you.
I respect Jensen for the same reason that others respect him. He is simply the most knowledgable and honest scientist in the field of intelligence research. He has contributed more to the field than anyone alive and probably ranks with Charles Spearman in terms of his overall impact on the understanding of differential psychometrics. Anyone who has even a slight interest in psychometrics should have read generously from his papers and books.

If you do not understand the points or words, or wish to know important references referring to other references which then hopefully refer to your database, then I would suggest to get in touch with them.
I am not suffering from a lack of understanding in this area. Your level of expertise is obvious. The terminology you have used is not found in serious psychometric literature, but I don't doubt that it can be found in "study books" for undergraduates or high school students.

Real psychology and the conscientious application of it is a very worthwhile and rewarding endeavor and psychometric methods have their place in it. However, the way you portrayed it, it is one-sided, tunnel-visioned, unethical, damaging, naive and intellectually banal.
Your observation comes from the perspective of a publicly displayed level of competence which requires no further comment. I suggest that, if this topic is interesting to you, that you should read modern texts and papers, putting fourth enough effort to understand the material. I think you will find it rewarding and may even encourage you to return to discuss your newfound knowledge here.
 
  • #232
Evo
Mentor
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Mandrake, you are a wealth of misinformation, as always.

I haven't even bothered reading the rest of your spam and I don't plan to. You keep regurgitating the same nonsense.
 
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  • #233
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Evo said:
Mandrake, you are a wealth of misinformation, as always.

I haven't even bothered reading the rest of your spam and I don't plan to. You keep regurgitating the same nonsense.
Hi Evo!

It's great to hear from you again. I always look forward to your warm and cheerful comments. Your insight here has been truly extraordinary. Keep up the good work, as we all appreciate encouragement from those elders for whom we hold high personal regard.

As you know, I started this successful thread on August 22nd. Since then, the discussion has been one of the most successful ever, attracting 232 posts and a whopping 3565 viewers (and growing). Obviously this topic is one that interests many participants. We have seen a good number of very well informed people offer their comments and insight (none approaching yours though). Even the people who have presented comments that were not supportable or even those that have been churlish, have helped maintain lines of discussion and have thusly brought additional information to benefit all.

When we compare the high interest in this thread to the interest in other topics, it becomes clear that this topic rates very high on the list for more people than do the other ones. I appreciate your very considerable efforts in keeping this topic alive and friendly; I take no credit for the occasional bits I have added. Thank you.
 
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Roberth said:
...The problem remains what good these studies do. They certainly do not produce any scientifically important data, but can create harm...
IQ results are used as part of the determination of who is subject to the death penalty and who isn't. IQ results are used as part of the determination of who qualifies for a position in "gifted" classes and who isn’t. And IQ results are used as part of the determination of which students require additional help and where that help is needed or will be most beneficial. Now the Supreme Court of the United States has just heard a case which may turn on the issue of whether evidence showing brain development and the parts of the brain used in decision making, as an individual matures, can be used to show that still developing brains lack the same level of impulse control as matured brains. These results will be considered on the issue of whether those under 18 years of age might be subject to the death penalty. During oral argument, the Supreme Court decision regarding the use of IQ in capital murder cases was mentioned.
 
  • #235
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To Tigers2B1

IQ results are used as part of the determination of who is subject to the death penalty and who isn't.

Do you see that as good or bad? I am not sure anymore on this board. This is a prime example for my statement. First, the death penalty should not be there in the first place. Second, whichever way they use the argument, they will soon also use it in the opposite way.

IQ results are used as part of the determination of who qualifies for a position in "gifted" classes and who isn’t.

Do you see that as good or bad? I see it as bad. It should be the academic achievement that counts whether your are in a school for more skilled persons or not. There are great examples around in the world.

Here are some that I know about. Grammar schools in Britain (unfortunately less and less these days); Gymnasium, HTL, HAK or equivalent in Germany, Austria and Switzerland; VWE in the Netherlands; they all work and do not produce 'freaks'. You know, there are also gifted children who are unhappy to be in "gifted" classes.

Regarding the beloved IQ on this board, I remember one study where they tested the IQ of the average Gymnasium pupil in Austria. It was something like 122 around 1982 and varied slightly between schools (I seem to remember 118 to 130).

Also, if you first go to a normal lower grade High School at the age of 10/11, you can still switch to one of these higher schools up to the age of 14/15 provided you have good marks (… and wish to go for higher education rather than going to a vocational school for three more years and end up as a very skilled plumber, for example. Not all high IQ children want to go into higer education). In all these schools you have to sit the equivalent of a British A-level which is your ticket to University. Even later you can still get into these higher schools education but you must take a private school path to get to the A-levels and equivalent.

The above are examples that show that you can create 'gifted' school environment in a very natural and healthy way. It is not a question of: >120 in, <119 out or whatever.

In these countries, you do not need an IQ test to get into higher education and are provided with several opportunities as long as your marks are fine. … and that is the way it should be!

And IQ results are used as part of the determination of which students require additional help and where that help is needed or will be most beneficial.

You do not need IQ tests for that. Simply help them and provide opportunities!

At the age of 14, I sat a 3 hour "carrer advice test" as part of the school that I went to. I remember the lady being quite uneasy with me since I had a rather wide variation within the test results. She pointed out that she could not understand a couple of unusually high non-correlations. For example, in one sector, I was the best out of 80 in that year, but in a very correlated field I was within the last 20. I explained to her that she should not worry about it, I had never been very interested in those parts where I did not do so well … and I could easily improve if I needed to.


Now the Supreme Court of the United States has just heard a case which may turn on the issue of whether evidence showing brain development and the parts of the brain used in decision making, as an individual matures, can be used to show that still developing brains lack the same level of impulse control as matured brains. These results will be considered on the issue of whether those under 18 years of age might be subject to the death penalty. During oral argument, the Supreme Court decision regarding the use of IQ in capital murder cases was mentioned.


There we go! Next time they will prove that a 10 year old, highly gifted murderer should be executed. These 4 or 5 year old Asian children with 'measured' IQs over 200 should be careful! If they steal a candy bar, they may be convicted to several years in jail.

I do not think that some of the psychometrics guys here who do not see the ethical problems really get it. Maybe if I use an alteration of Murphy's law, based on history, something will click (although I doubt it).

Scientists and other people with responsibility should always keep in mind:

"Anything that can be used to hurt humans WILL BE used to hurt humans!"

"Anything that can be used for the benefit of humans MAY BE used for the benefit of humans!"

RobertH
 
  • #236
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Roberth

IQ results are used as part of the determination of who is subject to the death penalty and who isn't.
Do you see that as good or bad? I am not sure anymore on this board. This is a prime example for my statement. First, the death penalty should not be there in the first place. Second, whichever way they use the argument, they will soon also use it in the opposite way.
The death penalty exists, whether good, bad, or indifferent. It exists and IQ results may play a role in certain capital punishment cases. In the Supreme Court decision, I think it was noted that the defendant had an IQ of 57.

On your other point --- I really don’t think you’re saying what you seem to be saying "…whichever way they use the argument, they will soon also use it in the opposite way" since it doesn't make sense IMHO.

IQ results are used as part of the determination of who qualifies for a position in "gifted" classes and who isn’t.
Do you see that as good or bad? I see it as bad. It should be the academic achievement that counts whether your are in a school for more skilled persons or not. There are great examples around in the world.
Academic achievement also counts – IQ results are not the sole determiner of which students are admitted to gifted classes and which are not. The spaces for gifted students are limited. IQ results are used as yet another indicator of potential, and IQ results are highly correlated with scholastic results --- that is, IQ results are a good predictor of school achievement.

Here are some that I know about. Grammar schools in Britain (unfortunately less and less these days); Gymnasium, HTL, HAK or equivalent in Germany, Austria and Switzerland; VWE in the Netherlands; they all work and do not produce 'freaks'. You know, there are also gifted children who are unhappy to be in "gifted" classes.
Again, I have no idea what you mean by producing "freaks" – so I can't comment.

On the other point – about not wanting to be in gifted classes. So? I my not understand your point. If they don't want to be there than they leave - their parents take them out. If the student doesn't want to be in an accelerated, challenging learning environment, his or her grades will reflect that soon enough and he or she will get their wish. There are other students willing to take their seat, I'm sure. BUt if a student performs, and if their parent wants that child in that accelerated environment - well, some kids don't want to be in school period. But a child doesn't make that sort of decision about their education, the State does and the parent does.

The above are examples that show that you can create 'gifted' school environment in a very natural and healthy way. It is not a question of: >120 in, <119 out or whatever.
What’s "natural and healthy" about >A in, <B out in it's own right? Anyway, as mentioned, the States that have gifted programs also use acedmeic achievement in addition to predicted acedemic potential. Colleges also use stand-ins for IQ tests when they use GRE test results when determining which candidates get into graduate school and which don’t – same with Law Schools’ use of the LSAT. Both tests also have a correlation with IQ results. In fact, one of the most widely used tests, the SAT, HAD a high correlation with IQ results and was almost universally used by colleges as one of their admission standards. That SAT – IQ correlation no longer exists after the SAT format was changed in response to political pressures during the 1990s.

And IQ results are used as part of the determination of which students require additional help and where that help is needed or will be most beneficial.
You do not need IQ tests for that. Simply help them and provide opportunities!
To say "Simply help them" skips a lot of the work that's actually done in figuring out HOW to help them. Under the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA) schools are required, by Federal law, to provide opportunities for students with disabilities to 'mainstream' – that is, allow these students the opportunity to go to schools with other, non-disabled children. When these disabilities may be cognitive, IQ tests, with their varied subparts are a tool, albeit one of the tools, used when drawing up the required Individualized Education Plans (IEP) for certain disabled students. For example, an 11 year old child who can be mainstreamed may have only problems with nummerical reasoning but no other problems. Providing special help to that child, in that area, with that specific problem from the beginning - will most likely result in a benefit to the child in that area and allow him to mainsteam with other students. Waiting for failure to occur not only means that you might never understand the underlying problem but may lead to lost time and possible affects on self-esteem for the child.

At the age of 14, I sat a 3 hour "carrer advice test" as part of the school that I went to. I remember the lady being quite uneasy with me since I had a rather wide variation within the test results. She pointed out that she could not understand a couple of unusually high non-correlations. For example, in one sector, I was the best out of 80 in that year, but in a very correlated field I was within the last 20. I explained to her that she should not worry about it, I had never been very interested in those parts where I did not do so well … and I could easily improve if I needed to.
That sounds like an achievement test – not an IQ test.

Now the Supreme Court of the United States has just heard a case which may turn on the issue of whether evidence showing brain development and the parts of the brain used in decision making, as an individual matures, can be used to show that still developing brains lack the same level of impulse control as matured brains. These results will be considered on the issue of whether those under 18 years of age might be subject to the death penalty. During oral argument, the Supreme Court decision regarding the use of IQ in capital murder cases was mentioned.

There we go! Next time they will prove that a 10 year old, highly gifted murderer should be executed. These 4 or 5 year old Asian children with 'measured' IQs over 200 should be careful! If they steal a candy bar, they may be convicted to several years in jail.
Robert – I believe you completely missed the point and what the Supreme Court is presently looking at. The evidence presented was that young, forming minds, may not have the same social inhibitions and controls that mature brains shown. It’s not a case about using IQ results to execute children. The case involving adults with IQs below 70 was mentioned during oral argument since the ability to form a certain mental state is a requirement of a finding of capital murder.

"Anything that can be used to hurt humans WILL BE used to hurt humans!"

"Anything that can be used for the benefit of humans MAY BE used for the benefit of humans!"
With due respect, following that logic we should just all burn the house, send the car over the cliff, and go naked.
 
  • #237
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To Tigers2B1

The death penalty exists, whether good, bad, or indifferent. It exists and IQ results may play a role in certain capital punishment cases. In the Supreme Court decision, I think it was noted that the defendant had an IQ of 57.

On your other point --- I really don’t think you’re saying what you seem to be saying "…whichever way they use the argument, they will soon also use it in the opposite way" since it doesn't make sense IMHO.

Maybe I was too fast here. The problem is the following:
If I understand you correctly now then the Supreme Court said: "We cannot kill that person because the defendant is not intelligent enough to have made a conscious decision or does not understand the boundaries of what is right or wrong."
Although in this case the IQ test is, of course, used for a good cause, the moment you use IQs to justify non-killing, you automatically open the gate that somebody could use it as a justification for killing. The real issue here is the death penalty, of course. If it did not exist then the issue would not rise.

Having said that, I agree with you that this is an example to the benefit of people (if I understood you correctly and as portrayed in my answer). However, see further comments below.

Academic achievement also counts – IQ results are not the sole determiner of which students are admitted to gifted classes and which are not. The spaces for gifted students are limited. IQ results are used as yet another indicator of potential, and IQ results are highly correlated with scholastic results --- that is, IQ results are a good predictor of school achievement.

I agree with you and would suggest that psychologists put forward a petition to the government to increase the seats for gifted children or change the school system.


Again, I have no idea what you mean by producing "freaks" – so I can't comment.

On the other point – about not wanting to be in gifted classes. So? I my not understand your point. If they don't want to be there than they leave - their parents take them out. If the student doesn't want to be in an accelerated, challenging learning environment, his or her grades will reflect that soon enough and he or she will get their wish. There are other students willing to take their seat, I'm sure. BUt if a student performs, and if their parent wants that child in that accelerated environment - well, some kids don't want to be in school period. But a child doesn't make that sort of decision about their education, the State does and the parent does.


Sounds all fine to me except one issue. I see some danger in that accelerating part. When children grow up they have to learn all aspects of what it means to be a well-rounded human being. If a highly gifted child achieves calculus level at the age of 12 it does not mean that the child has the overall mental ability of a normal, intelligent child that reaches it at the age of 17. The highly gifted 12 old child may have the academic ability in certain sectors to match that of the 17 year old one but has missed the emotional time to mature and develop the other aspects of personality. In those countries that I listed, there is no difference in the curriculum between a normal school and a grammar school up to the age of 14. The only difference is that the subjects are presented in a more challenging way, i.e. more difficult.

A 14 year old child with the academic achievement to go to university is a bit freaky. I feel rather sorry for them. They simply miss the whole development: being lazy in school, playing truant, enjoying real friendships, having a girlfriend or boyfriend, sneaking into discos, etc. I am convinced that it is detrimental to their psychological development.

There is such an obsession with Academic achievement. It is only a small aspect of life. If you ask me to give you an age limit then I would say 17 before they are allowed to college.

But anyway, I may have got too carried away on this point.

What’s "natural and healthy" about >A in, <B out in it's own right?

I think that you misunderstood this time. It is not healthy to simply use an IQ score (smaller 120 is no, larger 120 is yes) to allow entrance to certain schools.

Anyway, as mentioned, the States that have gifted programs also use academic achievement in addition to predicted acedemic potential. Colleges also use stand-ins for IQ tests when they use GRE test results when determining which candidates get into graduate school and which don’t – same with Law Schools’ use of the LSAT. Both tests also have a correlation with IQ results. In fact, one of the most widely used tests, the SAT, HAD a high correlation with IQ results and was almost universally used by colleges as one of their admission standards. That SAT – IQ correlation no longer exists after the SAT format was changed in response to political pressures during the 1990s.


Using IQ tests in addition to academic results can be an excellent idea! (Now you are surprised, hey?) However, only when used as a one way rule:

"If child does not fulfill academic requirement then give second chance via IQ test."



To say "Simply help them" skips a lot of the work that's actually done in figuring out HOW to help them. Under the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (IDEA) schools are required, by Federal law, to provide opportunities for students with disabilities to 'mainstream' – that is, allow these students the opportunity to go to schools with other, non-disabled children. When these disabilities may be cognitive, IQ tests, with their varied subparts are a tool, albeit one of the tools, used when drawing up the required Individualized Education Plans (IEP) for certain disabled students. For example, an 11 year old child who can be mainstreamed may have only problems with nummerical reasoning but no other problems. Providing special help to that child, in that area, with that specific problem from the beginning - will most likely result in a benefit to the child in that area and allow him to mainsteam with other students. Waiting for failure to occur not only means that you might never understand the underlying problem but may lead to lost time and possible affects on self-esteem for the child.

Sounds excellent to me.

I actually met a person like that once and almost did not employ him (as a future network engineer) because he was totally miserable in mental arithmetic. One of my supervisors, however, asked me to give him a chance since he had followed a particular type of school (similar to Steiner). I said then to the manager: "Ok, but he is your responsibility and trouble." We gave the guy a chance and he became one of the 'stars'.

That sounds like an achievement test – not an IQ test.

It was both.

Robert – I believe you completely missed the point and what the Supreme Court is presently looking at. The evidence presented was that young, forming minds, may not have the same social inhibitions and controls that mature brains shown. It’s not a case about using IQ results to execute children. The case involving adults with IQs below 70 was mentioned during oral argument since the ability to form a certain mental state is a requirement of a finding of capital murder.

These results will be considered on the issue of whether those under 18 years of age might be subject to the death penalty.

I do not understand. They currently kill people under the age of 18? … and the IQ tests are used to prove to them that the subjects were not yet responsible enough to be killed? ????...????

With due respect, following that logic we should just all burn the house, send the car over the cliff, and go naked.[/QUOTE]

No, following that logic you must be alert from the very beginning that damage will happen, even if you mean well. You must therefore concentrate on those areas where the likelihood that damage occurs is very small. Knowing that it will occur, you must also check that the damage itself will probably be small. Furthermore, the principle also entails that you avoid those areas where the damage is obvious from the very beginning. Race-related studies are in this last category.

Most of the examples that you listed look good to me. Congratulations and sorry if I misunderstood some of it.

However, the danger also lurks in them that they will be used in a destructive way, the other way round of what you apparantly like to achieve. The most depressing aspect of it is that several of the applications that you mentioned should not be necessary in the first place.

Roberth
 
  • #238
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Yes, crimes committed by 16 and 17 year olds can, under certain circumstances, be punished by death. BUT Note – I'm talking about two different cases. That may be why what I've posted is confusing. One case is Roper v. Simmons, which is the case dealing with brain activity and inhibitions ---- the other is Atkins v. Virginia, which is the case that talks about IQ and inhibitions. LINKED is an article from MSN.com that explains – and mentions BOTH (as did the Supreme Court)

…Today's oral argument in Roper v. Simmons asks whether the execution of people who were 16 or 17 years old when they committed their crimes constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment" under the Eighth Amendment. … Unlike much of the court's jurisprudence, this analysis does not require poring over texts or channeling Thomas Jefferson. Instead, the court is asked to blink directly into the bright light of science and current events to determine whether "evolving standards of decency" mandate a change in the notion of what is cruel and unusual….

… In 2002 the court voted 6-3 to ban the execution of the mentally retarded in Atkins v. Virginia, using the "evolving standards" test to find that most states no longer believed it acceptable to execute them and that the mentally retarded had diminished culpability for their crimes….
http://slate.msn.com/id/2108172/&&CM=SlateBox&CE=5&HL=Reckless [Broken]
 
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  • #239
Evo
Mentor
23,164
2,864
Mandrake said:
As you know, I started this successful thread on August 22nd. Since then, the discussion has been one of the most successful ever, attracting 232 posts and a whopping 3565 viewers (and growing). Obviously this topic is one that interests many participants.

We have seen a good number of very well informed people offer their comments and insight (none approaching yours though). Even the people who have presented comments that were not supportable or even those that have been churlish, have helped maintain lines of discussion and have thusly brought additional information to benefit all.

When we compare the high interest in this thread to the interest in other topics, it becomes clear that this topic rates very high on the list for more people than do the other ones. I appreciate your very considerable efforts in keeping this topic alive and friendly; I take no credit for the occasional bits I have added. Thank you.
Just because everyone feels it necessary to make sure that people that come here know that what you are posting is wrong doesn't make this a "successful" thread. Is that really what you think? :rofl:

Go look at the crackpot threads, you will find that they have some of the highest views.
 

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