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  1. Dec 11, 2003 #1

    I grow up around a lot of white kids, so most of my friends are white, anyway....

    around where i live, whites hang out with whites (usually), asians with asians (i hang out with them too), hispanics with hispanics, etc. and one thing is really screwed up. we were at school, and there were these black kids that called me a chink, and called my friends stupid crackers and honkies, (i dunno why, guess they just dont like us or something) but then, after a while, we called them black ass holes, cuz its only fair (lol). then we all get into a huge fight, and then these teachers come and break it up. the other kids are saying that we called them "racial terms" and we said that they did too, but then, the teachers we're blaming us for calling them names back! and later on, we get in trouble, and they just get a warning... i know we shouldve kept our mouths shut, but then they called us things that are tons more worse!

    society is screwed up, and there is way too much reverse discrimination everywhere.

    and for the people who are gonna say, "oh, black people deserve more rights, because they were enslaved by the white man many years ago"

    but remember this, that was like 150 years ago, and my friends are german... germans came in like the 1900's, so my friend's ancestors didnt do anything...
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 11, 2003 #2
    Damn that, and affermitive action, for far too logn have peopel been afriad of beign raciest in simple actions
  4. Dec 11, 2003 #3
    ur right, affirmative action is also wrong.. just cuz ur black or hispanic, u should get to get a better chance of getting into college? no u shouldnt
  5. Dec 11, 2003 #4
    Did you physically fight, or verbally?

    No you shouldn't have kept your mouth shut, someone insults you, insult them back, assuming you know they won't knife/shoot you for it or something.
  6. Dec 11, 2003 #5
    oh, verbally... fighting would then let them have a reason to sue, so i didnt attack.
  7. Dec 11, 2003 #6


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    Re: Racism....

    Considering equality of racial rights has only been legally gauranteed for a little over 30 out of the 208 years of constitutionally ratified legal slavery, it wasn't that long ago.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2003
  8. Dec 11, 2003 #7
    interesting comment from a guy with a signature that says

    "Official race member of the Crank Crushing Rednecks 24 hours of Adrenaline."
  9. Dec 11, 2003 #8


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    Yes, thankyou, Our team came in third. It was tongue in cheek, such is the culture of mountain bike racing. Some other team names....Five Dicks and a Chick, Four Straight Guys and Steve, The Inadvertant Tree Huggers. We were the only team on the podium with a woman (moi), black, hispanic, two asians etc. etc. It is a joke. It was such a nice play on a name with such a motley crew, besides, I didn't pick out the name.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2003
  10. Dec 11, 2003 #9
    hmm, jews were slaves for like thousands of years, does that mean that they should get more rights too?
  11. Dec 11, 2003 #10


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    Don't know how you presume I am completely pro- affirmative action since I am not.

    But since you bought that up. Some misconceptions need to be cleared up about it. The idea is basically that if a business is hiring fairly, the employee base should roughly look like that of the community. If a business is all white in a community that is 25% black, then there are probably grounds for at least looking into things. Now, people who don't have the brightest minds may have misread this basic idea as being "You must have X percentage of minority employees!" but anyone on any side of this issue who makes such a proclamation is simply not understanding the principle as it is intended.

    Affirmative Action is not, as it is often described, intended as "punishment" for white people. Rather, it's a way to use hiring and admissions procuedres to correct the lack of opportunities to a select group of people created by two centuries of hiring and admission procedures specifically designed to deny these people opportunities.

    Affirmative Action programs are not supposed to be permanent. Again, the idea is to take a group of people who have been denied opportunities that allow them to have the same success and give them those opportunities. It was a tool to accelerate desegregation. Jews were not denied entrance into schools or employment in our country that in any way approached the degree to which the blacks were exposed to. It was designed to redress one country's particular policies towards its minorities. Once this goal is completed, the programs are supposed to go away. It is good to see that the Supreme Court, although, not completely eliminating affirmative action, has begun to stress these limits on its use. I also think people forget that asians, women, and hispanics have inadvertantly fallen under the umbrella of "affirmative action" if one looks at an institution's desire for diversity. However, the Blacks have recieved all the negative connotations associated with it ie: Black man at Harvard is seen as posessing inferior qualifications compared to a Hispanic woman at Harvard.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2003
  12. Dec 11, 2003 #11
    A company hiring fairly shouldn't nessicarily have an employee base representitive of their community, they should hire the people who are best for the job. If the black people in community x waste their highschool career by drinking, smoking pot, skipping class and doing poorly in general, don't go to college or go to a poor college and don't do well, and the asians all join extra cirricular activities, study hard and do well in school in general, go on to reputable colleges and get good grades, why should anyone hire black people over asians, when the asians are clearly better educated and qualified for job x?
  13. Dec 11, 2003 #12
    Ok first of all i am not rasict one bit, i have asian, black, indian friends. My girlfriend is chinese and im white. Race doesn't mean much to me. But from my experience black people are the most racist people. (At least around where i live). If a black guy calls me a cracker or something, i don't give a damn, i will call him the N word. I don't see how the N word is any worse that cracker. That happend to me and my friends and all these black guys couldn't beleive that we called them that after they called us "Stupid White Crackers". Lots of black people still complain that their people where slaves, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't us who made them slaves, it was people that lived along time ago. The world has changed and everybody have the same rights as everybody else now. So get over it already! All the world problems these days are because of racism. Palestinians and Isralies, Almost every third world culture and americans. I just don't see the big deal. Why can't people just realize that we are all the same underneath our skin and religion. It's all bull**** to me. Argh, now im all pissed off....
  14. Dec 11, 2003 #13
    what people often forget is that no only blacks were slaves indians jews mexicans not just mexicans most enthinc groups are often inslaved in sweat shops slavery goes on in the world all the time i could think hundreds of names for every enthnic group not just including skin color people with different sexual prefrences are also commented on also i wanted to bring up the question (do u consider black history month to be racist)
  15. Dec 11, 2003 #14
    I find myself agreeing with you well on this one. It wasn't them that were made slaves, it was their ancestors. It wasn't us that made their ancestors slaves, it was our ancestors. So what's all the fuss about? Can't everyone just forgive eachother of the mistakes of their fathers? It seems minority groups are jumping whenever insulted, then run off accusing someone of racism.
    Something wrong with this picture?

    Though we should treat all ethnic groups as equals, that doesn't mean we should treat people that grew up in different cultures the same way. One of my more opened minded teachers went on about how people used to say they had to be "color blind." But that is just silly because you don't shake hands with someone that lives in a place where handshaking is an insult. See my point? Anyone can out loud point out someones hair color without trouble, yet pointing out skin color is unacceptable?
  16. Dec 12, 2003 #15
    The economy in america was failing until fall and the unemployment rate is still around 6% in america, was/is that due to racism?

    Muslims and jews never really liked each other, but the big cause for the palestine/isreal thing is due to the fact that isreal came in and took ****loads of palestine's land. Anyone who's had large chunks of their land taken over by someone else, no less highly important to the religion of the people who owned it before it was taken over, would be pissed off about it.

    You said you thought black people were the most racist and expect to be treated specially, yet you're saying they're the same as everyone else as well?
  17. Dec 12, 2003 #16
    I think the system should be entirely meritocratic. How far you go and what you succeed in should be determined only by your relevant qualities/traits/skills. If there are 100 positions and it so turns out (unlikely) that only 1% of whites in a 99% black community are suitable for the job for whatever reason, then those whites should get the job.

    Suppose, hypothetically, a domestic intelligence agency needs to infiltrate a white supremacist group which plans to use terrorism to achieve their goals. Affirmative action says they should hire a black agent for the job because they are short on the black:white agent ration at the moment. A meritocratic system says a white agent will have a better chance of success (duh?!). Can you see the absurdity here?

    As for the occasional reports you see floating around saying that the racial IQs are, in decreasing order: White, Hispanic then Black...hence the need for affirmative action...let me point out that affirmative action is really just inverse racism. "Lets fix racism by being racist." Duh...again. If you can't make the grades then tough luck...its nothing personal about your race. All affirmative action really says at a fundamental level is "Race counts". The message we are trying to get across with anti-racism laws is that "Race does NOT count".
  18. Dec 12, 2003 #17
    Being an atheist, I am in a comfortable position to see either side of the Israeli/Palestine issue. As for your point about the Israelis taking Palestinian land, go back a few centuries more and it was actually the Arabs taking Israeli land. The Israelis are just...returning home.

    I think it is unfortunately true that many Black people have a chip on their shoulder because of the unjust treatment they had in the past. Whether or not they could forget it is not the point - they aren't. Just the other day, a close friend of mine was accused by a black driver of racism just because she was reserving a parking space for a friend. I mean, WTH?! Can we even park a car without being accused of being racist?

    Then theres the issue that police officers in the UK don't want to do as many stop & searches on black people because of being accused of racism. The result: the proportion of white/blacks in the population and stop & searches to that ratio is skewed in favour of blacks. More inverse racism.
  19. Dec 12, 2003 #18
    well put, tyro.
    I was reserving that post space for my friend though.
    Hah! I see now. You took the space because I'm American!
    Oh ya? Well I'm not to fond of people with the letter, "T" in their username either.
  20. Dec 12, 2003 #19
    Affirmative action will be necessary until we start making opportunities equal...which is more of a class issue, but due to centuries of slavery and institutional racism minorities generally start life far behind white people.
  21. Dec 12, 2003 #20
    Its' simple really. Any group that gets time in front of the television cameras will influence politicians, and they will influence school policy. So if you want relatively equal treatment, first you need to complain about everything in front of the TV cameras.

    Regarding the African slave trade (from a documentary I have on video and from my sociology notes):
  22. Dec 12, 2003 #21
    Asian minorities don't seem to have that problem. They get ahead even without affirmative action. Even with all the immigrant stigma, financing and visa issues they are burdened with. The opportunities can be equal, and even more than equal...but to speak metaphorically, some fish simply won't bite, and you can't force them to do it. It is not up to us to roll out the red carpet and to be the ones that do the hard work to make their lives better.

    Take Malaya, for example. I swotted up on the country's politics and history when I went there for a holiday a few years back. The Bumiputeras (translated to mean, quite egotistically, Earth Princes, IIRC) or Malays get affirmative action laws such as reduced loan interest rates, reduced car and housing prices, employment quotas, student proportion quotas and the unspoken law that upper echelon managers must be both Malay and Muslim. Some of my parents friends who tried to venture into that country complained about these unspoken racist rules. If you want to do business in that country, and want to do it with other companies, you must have a Malay + Muslim manager. Or else no deals. These laws (constitutional or unspoken) were implemented as part of a scheme by the government after British independence to 'correct' the economic imbalance of the Malay race due to our British divide & conquer strategy.

    The end result was that Malays became lazy and expected everything to be handed to them on a silver platter, simply because of their heritage as a Malay Muslim. I didn't say this. Their ex-PM, Mahatir said that. Malayan universities turn away minority Chinese and Indian applicants with superior grades, and take underperforming Malays because of affirmative action. I'm not saying Malays are stupid (actually, the ex-PM also said that, in his book, "The Malay Dilemma"), just that they became the victim of (originally) well-meaning affirmative action.

    If the system is entirely meritocratic, everyone will be judged on aspects on the scorecard which are much more impartial and objective. Like IQ, test scores, project marks, employment history, etc. Everyone will strive to accomplish in these respects.
  23. Dec 12, 2003 #22


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    Opponents of affirmative action need to recognize that "equality of opportunity" is not nearly as simple as it sounds. But supporters of "affirmative action" have to understand its limits.
    This limit has to be clearly limited, otherwise, it too can easily end up as precisely the kind of routine labeling and treatment according to race, ethnicity etc. that it was meant to expunge as people have pointed out on this thread.

    Who doesn't want to live in a color blind society or sex blind society and to base everything on merit? But we don't.

    Prestigious school admissions still look at alumni standing and donations of the parents, so unless this is eliminated, a more inferior caucasion will be equally admitted under the umbrella of their parents donations and alumni status just as the minority admitted under the umbrella of affirmative action. Fortunately for the caucasian, society does not hold it against him or her. ( In fact, you can become President of the United States!) I realize this is a small example and using academia once again, but you get the gist.

    Affirmative action is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.

    Personally, I think that it is not necessary in the Northeast, Midwest,or west coast. However, as one who lives in the South, I still see blatant racism. I have been part of the admission committee on and off for our medical school and seen a Black Westing House Science Award winner, varsity swimmer and state champion with 3.89 averages as a physics major from Cornell university passed over for a white football player from University of Georgia with 3.5 average as a economics major! Racism still exists, even in the Ivory halls of acadamia. You bet your ass it exists on the coorporate level. In this case, something must be in place that will allow an equally or superiorly qualified black applicant the opportunity to reach his or her goal! And that's the point, most ant-affirmative action people are equally prejudicial in assuming it only protects inferior candidates ....it is about giving the chance for the equally qualified or superior minority to gain access to the system. (Unfortunately our school had "met its minimum" quota") and one thing led to another..... but won't go into that.

    Of all the problems with Affirmative Action, the biggest one is ignorance. People (on both sides) make knee-jerk reactions out of laziness or motives that overgeneralize the main purpose of affirmative action, and that was... an temporary and imperfect solution, to redress and correct our country's backward policies towards our minorities. We have made great strides and as stated before, the Supreme Court realizes this and has already put a tether on Affirmative Action in its latest ruling regarding the UNiversity of Michigan case.

    Malaysia is my home country so I will comment on that. These elitist practices are just that, to entrench and empower the ruling ethnic and religious party. Not an effort to redress and correct past wrongs. Their policies are not affirmative action in the sense that I have described above.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2003
  24. Dec 12, 2003 #23
    I'm not in the least racist...but I have to put in my $.02 on affirmitave action.

    From what i've seen of affirmitive action at my college here in Tennessee is that under performing black students will get picked over higher performing students of ANY other race. Their scholarship money is also VERY skewed. A minority student with the same gpa and similar act/sat scores will get roughly 2-2.5 times the scholarship money for a semester than a white student with the same scores. My scholarship pays my tuition and $100 for books each semester(roughly $1400), where as the minority scholarship for the same scores pays tuition, and about $1200 for expenses (roughly $2500).

    Also, in the small town i live in, (predominately white ~3-4000 ppl 70%white or so), there are the few rednecks who are racist, but generally everyone gets along unless something is "started" between them. One of the cops up here was accused of racism for pulling over hispanic drivers, and waiting outside of a bar to see if anyone appeared to be driving under the influence. The basis of the accusation was that he pulled over an unusually high number of hispanics, but he pulled over everyone he thought to be guilty of dui, they were just doing the majority of the drinking and driving.

    Just my $.02 for what its worth...

  25. Dec 12, 2003 #24
    I'd hate to live in a colour-blind and sex-blind society. I think those who want that have not thought it through properly. I quite like having people all different. I like girls. I like that girls are shaped different, and I like looking at them. What a boring world it would be if we didn't notice the groovy differences.

    Piffle. In the USA, minority students get bonus points on their SAT scores just for being in minorities.

    The biggest problem is that AA is a truly ridiculous system. It is geared toward granting special rights to a minority, not toward enforcing equality. Any time a government has ANY system which focuses on serving one small segment of the community based on their race, gender, religio, et cetera, it is discrimination, and serves to alienate them from the rest of society.
  26. Dec 12, 2003 #25
    As I understand it, these racially biased laws were implemented under the guise/logic of affirmative action; i.e. "The Malays are worse off so lets give them some economic and educational assistance." This happened after Independence when the various political parties were still trying to hold their fragile coalition together and the government conveniently forgot to repeal those laws.

    Of course, if you're a Malaysian in Malaysia and you talk about this, you will be jailed without trial and without charge, indefinitely, under the Internal Security Act. Which empowers the government to do just that.

    Affirmative action will not be necessary if the government legislates law which makes selection for academia, business positions, etc. entirely dependent on industry-agreed, objective tests. Commercial/business aptitude tests for business positions, IQ/A-Level/etc. tests for academia etc. Interviews are nice, but they are, unfortunately, subjective. Sports accomplishments are also nice, but how do you compare a silver triathelete with a bronze heptathelete? So that goes out too.

    For example, if the test results of all the applicants for a university intake were published (names witheld and replaced with applicant numbers), it will be easy to spot any discrepancies. "Why was applicant #4715 admitted when they had a total average score of 8.9 and I had a total average score of 9.1?" Questions like these are a better force for racial equality than arbitrary and inverse-racist affirmative action laws.

    A meritocratic system is ideal but just because it seems remote to achieve, does not mean we should settle for second-rate solutions like AA. We should try to achieve it anyway; if we fall short at least we are still closer than we were before.

    Bottom line: If the glove fits, wear it.
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