Raising a generation of Really Bad Readers?

[Chris Hillman]

In another thread, ZapperZ wrote something which reminded me of a concern I have harbored for some time:

I lost count on how many HW posts that I had to move out of the main physics forums, even when there's a sticky in there with the topic telling them clearly to not post HW/Coursework questions, IN CAPITAL LETTERS no less.

So I am skeptical if any of these things will actually work, or be effective. If they can't read simple, direct instruction that's staring at them right in their faces

I have noticed--- or think I have noticed--- a steady decline in the reading and writing skills of PF newbies who appear to belong to the juvenile cohort, biologically speaking. Many pundits appear to have noticed--- or think they have noticed--- this phenomenon in public web forums generally. These commentators typically blame these alleged changes in on-line "normative behavior" on the adoption by many juveniles of new technology such as text messaging. And I have in fact noticed--- or think I have noticed--- quite a few PF newbies who appear to be posting (inappropriately, in my view) using "TM style", just as some years ago, on moderated UseNet newsgroups I encountered posters posting (inappropriately, in my view) using L33t ("chat room style"). More to the point, this abbreviated style of writing appears to be accompanied by an inability to carefully read sometimes complicated texts, or to try to follow intricate and sometimes technical discussions. Assuming this phenomenon is not a collective hallucination, I have to wonder: can forums like PF have any long-term future, if future generations are unable or unwilling to read carefully any text longer than a few sentences?

 

[Cyrus]

I think you are taking a few bad posts too far.

 

[Chris Hillman]

I hope so. Certainly my fears that L33t might take over the newsgroups was completely wrong; in fact, they were taken over by something worse, the trolls :yuck:

 

[Cyrus]

Most of the time I find the people who post like that are the ones taking intro physics but just want answers, not engineers or physics majors. People forced to take it but don't care one way or another about the subject.

 

[moe darklight]

I'm with you. Here's a perfect example of people not being able to follow simple directions:

A few weeks ago, I hosted one of my BBQ's; I always invite people using the events app on facebook. here's the invitation, word for word (well, I took out all the swear words, dirty jokes, and personal info):

Start Time: Saturday, November 10, 2007 at 6:00pm
End Time: Sunday, November 11, 2007 at 7:00amDescription

ok let's get one last one before winter hits. as usual:

- BRING FOOD OR DRINK.
- if you're inviting anyone I don't know it's cool. just make sure u tell me before hand.
- there'll be FIRE! we won't freeze. don't be a *@##.

and don't forget: our Guest Of Honor this week will be none other than Bill O'Reilly!

if it gets too cold we'll eat some burgers and crash the bar. ... but I doubt it cause it's been pretty warm outside lately what with global warming and the drowning polar bears...

either way. if you show up and nobody's home, we'll be at the bar.

remember it's NEXT Saturday, not this week.

- NO ONE brought food.
- 5 uninvited strangers showed up without warning.
- 3 people showed up on the wrong week.
- 3 people called me on the wrong week, thinking it was that week.
- it did get too cold, and we did end up going to the bar: like 10 people called me that week saying "I showed up at your house and there was nobody there! where were you guys??"

ugh.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Chris, you'd also be dismayed at the number of new members who use the Report Post button to reply to threads (and do it repeatedly). Some of them never figure it out.

 

[Chris Hillman]

:uhh: <--- That means I'm flabbergasted

 

[Mk]

I just think it's the same thing that's been going on since society started: Old people like to say how the next generation is being raised wrongly and have behavioral problems, and are being raised dumber and dumber. But the thing is, civilization tends to get smarter, every generation. In this thread we've blamed 1337 and "AIM-" and "txt" speak, but it's those very communications technologies (computers, internet, telephones) that help spread information and understanding of information.

 

[Cyrus]

Your post makes no sense MK. What does computers, the internet, and telephones (invented in the early 1900s, BTW), have to do with short hand notation? None of these things were invented because of that type of speech, so it does not make your point. Its really more of a soundbite than anything else.

 

[Evo]

We have always insisted that members type in regular English, not text messaging or chat room format.

If you run across someone that doesn't, feel free to report them so a mentor can explain it to them, or tell them that until they use real English...no help.

This, of course, has nothing to do with non-English speakers that are making an effort.

 

[scorpa]

I don't think it is that they are bad readers, or that they cannot understand, in my opinion it is just lazyness. Why bother typing out those big long words in full sentences when you can just use txt speak? Why bother reading the directions? If you do it wrong someone will tell you. Txt language is one of those things that really irritates me, I'm not asking for perfect spelling and grammar just a real sentence that makes you look as though you made an attempt at appearing as an intelligent human being.

 

[mgb_phys]

How many of us have read "Eats shoots and leaves"?

 

[Evo]

How many of us have read "Eats shoots and leaves"?

That's a great book.

 

[Chi Meson]

Nothing is as bad as reading the comments under any...just about any Youtube video. Very few posts on PF even approach that level.

My speculation is that these are the folks that would have been completely illiterate in a previous generation. It might be progress, even.

 

[Evo]

Nothing is as bad as reading the comments under any...just about any Youtube video. Very few posts on PF even approach that level.

My speculation is that these are the folks that would have been completely illiterate in a previous generation. It might be progress, even.

AAAARGHHH! I want the ability to anihilate these people.

 

[Mk]

AAAARGHHH! I want the ability to anihilate these people.

Good ole xkcd.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Good ole xkcd.

Hahahahahaha! That was an uncanny satire. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It might be progress, even.

:rofl: Hah, yes, at least they are trying to read and write!

 

[Moonbear]

The downhill trend in writing and reading comprehension began well before texting started. I noticed it close to 15 years ago when I was a teaching assistant. College students could not write complete, coherent sentences in response to short answer/essay exam questions. Their writing in lab reports, where they actually had time to think through what they were saying and could proofread was just as bad, so it wasn't the time pressure of the exams. I was shocked at how atrocious their writing skills were. I asked some of the professors who had been teaching a long time if this was a recent development, or if there have always been students who write that badly, and I've just been unaware not being on the grading side before. They said it was only in the few years prior to that that the writing skills started to deteriorate so badly.

And, no, they couldn't follow instructions either. When a short answer question says, "In the space provided..." and they write their answer continued onto the back of the page, they clearly are not following instructions (I was annoyed that the course coordinator still expected me to grade the part on the back of the page...I thought that if they didn't put it in the space provided, I shouldn't have to waste time reading their answer...and I think "softies" like that only perpetuate the problem...all it takes is a '0' on one question because you didn't follow instructions to start to get the point you need to follow them).

I would try to emphasize this point in lab reports. At least 50% of their grade on lab reports required no understanding of the subject at all, it just required following instructions (because that's part of learning formal scientific writing). You should have heard the students squawking when I took off 2 points for excessive spelling/grammar errors! I didn't deduct points for the occasional typo, everyone slips somewhere when writing a long assignment, but when there were spelling errors in every paragraph, or the paper was riddled with incomplete sentences, I deducted points for that. I should have taken off more than just 2 points considering how painful it made the grading for me.

Anyway, yes, there is also a proliferation of poor writing/reading comprehension skills online, but one must also keep in mind that ANYONE can post online today, even those whose writing you would never need to read if you were talking in person. So, yes, it's bad, but I don't think it's necessarily due to text messaging so much as that there has been a steady decline in writing skills for some time now. It seems to have a different source.

 

[Chi Meson]

So, yes, it's bad, but I don't think it's necessarily due to text messaging so much as that there has been a steady decline in writing skills for some time now. It seems to have a different source.

Television, and its bloody spawn.

 

[lah214]

I'm not going to lie, I'm 17 and I use "u" for you when I send a text. It's only becuase it takes too long otherwise, but I do think it's rediculous when people use language like that on things like PF.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm not going to lie, I'm 17 and I use "u" for you when I send a text. It's only becuase it takes too long otherwise, but I do think it's rediculous when people use language like that on things like PF.

On the rare occasions when I use text messaging, I'll use shortcuts as well, mostly because I have got to be THE SLOWEST text messager on the planet, and because you are limited to the number of characters you can use, so it makes sense in that medium. It doesn't make sense when you have a full keyboard and no character limits.

 

[moe darklight]

I plead guilty to using shortcuts online (which should be obvious from my previous message)... I don't see it as anything wrong... language evolves, and the way we communicate online or by text will be different from the way we communicate verbally (just as the way we speak is different from a formal essay or a novel).

My concern is with people's inability to to understand and follow that language, and their inability to express themselves properly when it's necessary to do so. I think this comes as a result of apathy, rather than anything else.

 

[mgb_phys]

hei lyk thanks 4 da info on how 2 pass maths. i am a bright student and was put into Maths B in skool but afta a while i began 2 stuggle. no one wud / cud help me bcuz ma teacha waz helpin othaz in da class and ma mum doesn't no how to do dat maths so again thanks Xox Babi boo. Oh and i passed maths bcuz of ur tips :tongue2:

Posted in the Mathematics survival kit book review - this has got to be a wind-up!

 

[SticksandStones]

While "shortcuts" in text communication annoys me in a "I like using big words, so you should too" kind-of-way, I see absolutely no reason to be offended by or scared of them.

Langauge evolves. The fact that posts here are not filled with "thou" and "thee" is proof enough of this. To say that the quote of "mgb_phys"'s is in some way inferior to the "proper" English form with the same content is - in my humble opinion - false.

The only downside to such shortcuts - again in my humble opinion - is the resulting barrier between younger and older generations. Those unfamiliar with the concept may find themselves having a difficult time understanding that which seems like second nature to those like myself who have unwittingly found themselves growing up around such practices.

On another note, referencing Moonbear's post: "in the space provided" has never, throughout my academic career, implied (directly or indirectly) "and only in the space provided". I have always been instructed to use any additional space (such as the back of the sheet) needed to properly convey what it is I'm trying to say. The login behind this was simple: some people write big, some write small. It's foolish to think that everyone will be able to write a response in the same amount of space. Perhaps it's just a matter of the time's being different.

 

[Evo]

I think that abbreviated text is appropriate in some forms, such as texting on a cell phone or in a chat room when text is scrolling by, it is not appropriate in an academic forum, expecially where people from all over the world participate. It is hard enough for someone new to English to understand proper English (not to mention some use translation software) but to expect them to understand "wut R U doin?' is ridiculous.

Words are modified and added to a language over time, but text speak right here, right now, is not acceptable.

 

[Moonbear]

On another note, referencing Moonbear's post: "in the space provided" has never, throughout my academic career, implied (directly or indirectly) "and only in the space provided". I have always been instructed to use any additional space (such as the back of the sheet) needed to properly convey what it is I'm trying to say. The login behind this was simple: some people write big, some write small. It's foolish to think that everyone will be able to write a response in the same amount of space. Perhaps it's just a matter of the time's being different.

What else would it mean? If we mean you should use additional space as needed, we would give those instructions, i.e., "If you need additional space for your answer, use the bluebook provided." I always took into account large handwriting. I left enough room for a response three times as long as it really needed to be, just for those who are not as concise in their writing. Then they'd complain when they didn't have time to finish the exam. Of course they don't have enough time to finish the exam if they're writing a novel for every question when three sentences would have sufficed. "Short answer" means short answer. If I wanted long essays, I would have the exam done in a blue book, not in the space provided on the exam page itself.

 

[Astronuc]

hei lyk thanks 4 da info on how 2 pass maths. i am a bright student and was put into Maths B in skool but afta a while i began 2 stuggle. no one wud / cud help me bcuz ma teacha waz helpin othaz in da class and ma mum doesn't no how to do dat maths so again thanks Xox Babi boo. Oh and i passed maths bcuz of ur tips :tongue2:

Posted in the Mathematics survival kit book review - this has got to be a wind-up!

That one hurt my eyes. My first thought was - "You've got to be kidding!" My second thought was to recommend a course in English.


I don't see "TM style" or L33t ("chat room style") as progress.

And I disagree with the assertion that "But the thing is, civilization tends to get smarter, every generation." We seem to have achieved a plateau at the moment, or perhaps if we consider the current president - we've taken a giant leap backward. Certainly there are the few percent of the population who might be considered smarter than those of the same age a few decades ago - but that is a small minority in the population.

 

[SticksandStones]

What else would it mean?

I would take it to mean precisely what every professor I've had says it means - which is what I've stated. I wasn't saying it is right or wrong, merely that this is what I've run into through out high school and college.

Then they'd complain when they didn't have time to finish the exam.

Yeah, those people irk me as well.

Words are modified and added to a language over time, but text speak right here, right now, is not acceptable.

Sadly, there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it. Idiots will still communicate like idiots, regardless of how much anyone shuns them.

I don't see "TM style" or L33t ("chat room style") as progress.

Nor do I, but as you demonstrate later in your post: change doesn't always mean progress.

 

[mgb_phys]

That one hurt my eyes. My first thought was - "You've got to be kidding!" My second thought was to recommend a course in English.

My first thought was that it was Evo posting as a joke ...

 

[moe darklight]

EDIT: holy cow! I wasn't expecting this post would come out this long! eeek

Sadly, there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it. Idiots will still communicate like idiots, regardless of how much anyone shuns them.

I don't think it's fair to call them idiots ... sure, "proper" grammar has its charms, but language tends to evolve through the path of least effort.— As someone mentioned before, nobody uses "thee" or "thou" anymore; nor does anyone differentiate "hither" and "thither" from "here" and "there."

"You! come here!" is perfectly solid grammar in 2007. Had you said that in 1707, you'd've been seen as somewhat of an unsophisticate. — What is now the "beautiful and elegant" language of Italian was once the crude Latin of the "common people" — no one now would say that Italian or Spanish is a poor man's Latin.

Here's my 2c:
Spoken languages change much faster than written ones. As soon as a language starts being written down, "official" rules of proper grammar and syntax are created for it, which stagnates that change.
Also, there is a tendency to put more thought into written language than spoken language: someone writing a novel will pay more attention to what words he's using than someone buying a big-mac: few people speak as well as they write.
Not to mention: up until now, people have been writing things they meant to preserve for a long time.

What is happening now, which has never happened before, is that people are writing things that are not meant to last. People are not writing long letters to loved ones who live miles away that will be received days after they have been written and are meant to be read and re-read carefully and kept for a long time: people are chatting— writing things that are meant to be read once, then tossed away instantly.
In other words: people are writing at the speed in which they speak. This is bound to affect things.

I doubt we'll be seeing this in the next generation of English schoolbooks:

1) jimmy sed 2 bob "u got ___"

a) pwn
b) pwned
c) pwning

But we can't expect language to remain unaffected by the internet.

That said, I do think that some people's English is inexcusably atrocious: bad to the point where they can't even express themselves properly when they have to, or can't comprehend anything written at a level of English higher than what you would find in this month's MAD Magazine's Monroe strip.

But it's unfair to call these people idiots— they are not (at least many of them aren't)— it's because they are uneducated... or rather: they have not been properly educated.

I know I complain a lot about the school system. But it truly is terrible terrible terrible. So here I go again!

I don't blame the teachers; I've had some great teachers, many of whom were also horrified by the crap they were made to teach (my English teacher was especially critical of the school system).

How can it be that I graduated with an A in academic English and still my knowledge of the language was basic at best? (I don't know if in the US it's the same, but here they separate applied English from academic English... I can't imagine what students are learning [if anything at all] in applied English classes).

I took the mandatory literacy test three years after arriving to this country. I passed it with a perfect score: I cannot stress enough how EASY and BASIC this test is. Yet how can it be that so many local students fail it! I remember watching the news and students complaining about it being too HARD ! they were actually considering making it easier to accommodate the amount of students who were failing it!

here's a fringe idea: HOW ABOUT TEACHING BETTER ENGLISH.

Truth is they've made school too easy, and students are not being pushed nearly enough. Many classes that should be mandatory aren't: math beyond basic arithmetic, academic english, science, biology, physics.

Of course a teenager doesn't want to do those things! of course, as a 14 year old, all I and most of the other kids cared about was trying to get girls and see if we can get someone to buy us alcohol... and there's a reason for this: teenagers are morons! I was a moron, my friends were morons, and the vast majority of my schoolmates were morons — but that's exactly WHY teenagers need to be pushed into higher learning.

I think it's laughable that I graduated as an A student and basically learned nothing. It dawned on me a few weeks ago as I was reading brief biographies of my favorite authors— those from older generations like Poe or even Joyce: all these people were got out of school speaking Latin and French, knowing science and math, and already writing beautifully... what happened to our schools?

once more: ugh.

 

[Astronuc]

My first thought was that it was Evo posting as a joke ...

Boy, are you going to get it!

Besides, I doubt she would sink so low.

 

[Office_Shredder]

I think it's laughable that I graduated as an A student and basically learned nothing. It dawned on me a few weeks ago as I was reading brief biographies of my favorite authors— those from older generations like Poe or even Joyce: all these people were got out of school speaking Latin and French, knowing science and math, and already writing beautifully... what happened to our schools?

Because in 200 years, nobody's (probably) going to be thinking "Gee, 200 years ago guys like moe were getting out of school speaking English, with basic arithmetic skills" because that kind of stuff doesn't make you famous 200 years later. For every Poe, how many people got out of school barely able to write and barely caring? I can assure you those people became historically famous at a much lower success rate than people who worked hard at becoming educated

 

[moe darklight]

I wasn't speaking about fame. I was speaking about the quality of education that they received at school. It just happens that the biographies I was reading were about famous people (as they usually are— I doubt someone'll write a biography for the local plumber).

From those biographies and from what I read from their personal accounts, it seems like school was much more strict and like these classes weren't optional.
My point wasn't that these people turned into famous people, my point was that at school they were being forced to learn proper English, and that coming out of school they knew how to write a sentence that makes sense.

What excuse is there for giving 14 year old students the option to not take the harder classes? how is that in any way defensible? how is it defensible to accept 50% as the passing grade?

Even when my parents were kids, you didn't pass a class without at least a 70%, and you bet you had to know proper grammar and punctuation.

how many people got out of school barely able to write and barely caring?

But that's exactly my point!
those people (like me) would have MOST CERTAINLY not graduated as A students. I actually got an award for academic achievement! that's preposterous! I wasn't even sober for most of high-school for Christ's sake; how can it be that I'm considered someone worthy of an award for academic achievement?? is that how low our standards have gotten?

 

[Four]

I think its all the transfat people are being fed.