Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

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  • #176
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Please recognize that even aside from the policy issue, what you are saying about reactions is way, way, way outside the norm.

Indeed it is. The development of vaccines is done on a risk/reward basis. Because of the seriousness of Covid, the risk/reward was to accelerate the process. It has saved countless lives, so it was a success - the bad reactions are negligible in comparison. Even in one outbreak, Sydney at the moment, it is estimated Pfizer has saved 5808 lives:
https://www.burnet.edu.au/news/1506...ctions_for_second_epidemic_wave_in_sydney_nsw

Medical professionals are not running away from the risks - all are well aware of what happened with the 1976 Flu vaccine:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

The current vaccines have overall proved a stunning success. Yes, like all medicines, there have been vaccine complications, some even fatal such as the one in a million risk of dying from CVT with the AZ vaccine. But it must be kept in mind that even getting out of bed in the morning carries a 2.5 in a million risk of dying. Do you never get out of bed? Of course not. We all must accept some risk in our lives.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #177
russ_watters
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Based on moderator discussion we're going to lock this thread. It was something of a problematic double-edged sword from the beginning. Thanks everyone for contributing.
Per multiple member requests this thread is being re-opened. Please keep in mind the following ground-rules:

This thread is for relaying/discussing either:
1. Your own personal, fact-based experience with the vaccine (do not attempt to self-diagnose or otherwise speculate as to the nature of interactions with medicines/conditions).
2. Clinically recognized vaccine effects.

This thread may not be used to diagnose any health issue or speculate about undocumented vaccine side effects.
 
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  • #178
Laroxe
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Well I believe I have some authority when I speak on this issue, I had both a severe Covid and a vaccine with it's side effects I can compare very well.
My Covid was worse by any measure. As far as I am now (if the symptoms will not get worse) I can say that vaccine has had minor symptoms compared to those I battled after a double sided viral pneumonia. All I said from the beginning is that the spike protein most likely has some CNS interaction that causes these rather unpleasant symptoms (heart rate/beat, dizziness, muscle pain etc) Because I had the exact same ones after Covid also together with the rest of the bunch. But I have done some thinking and I believe I can single out the ones that are the same both from real infection and vaccine.
As for the physical symptoms like fever which is rather common I had none, no temperature, no fever no real chills.
I perfectly get your point @pinball1970 the odds especially for older people are way in favor of vaccine.


Listen russ I have always liked your style here and you have been an overall nice forum comrade but in this case I do feel both you and @fresh_42 just got mad for no reason. I really didn't push anti-vax ideas, never have, and the extraordinary claims rule cannot apply in this ,because as I already said, it would be stupid to expect for me to be able to prove to you my symptoms, you just have to trust me on this , logic is on my side there is no gain for me to come here waste my time writing something I made up, I just wanted to put it down in case someone else gets to have the same reaction and it' possible, my symptoms one way or the other are all written down in the adverse effects websites run by government agencies both here where I live as well as in US.
Also my idea that people should be more careful towards their health and know their condition before going taking drugs is I believe a well based and logical one. I mean most drugs are prescription exactly for that reason.
I personally think ,and I hope I am still allowed to express my own opinion, that many science oriented folks have gotten bit emotional over this because on one side we have a health problem- pandemic on the other side we have some percentage of vaxxed folks experiencing bad side effects and no option here is really good. It's just a matter of choosing the lesser evil.
But just as we shouldn't be anti-vaxxers we also shouldn't be "anti-side effecters"
Unless of course you believe I am a liar for no gain.


PS. I also would say to my own alibi that I am a trustworthy person and I keep my health checked regularly and read medical papers etc. I am not the type of person to just feel a headache and blame the weather.
I think artis you might be missing some relevant information about our understanding of Covid 19 and the vaccination. While it's certainly true that the virus has behaved in some unusual ways, that doesn't mean we don't know a great deal about it, and this information is increasing all the time.
The problem is that this is a new disease, which has generated a great deal of anxiety, while at the same time the information people get is clouded by misunderstandings and misinformation. This has lead to a situation in which people have become much more vigilant about any symptom or experiences, its characteristic of one of the way's anxiety tried to protect us. Unfortunately it simply isn't true that having Covid and the vaccine means you can speak with authority, all you can do is speculate about the things you become aware of. Many of the same reactions are seen following other vaccinations, but most people simply ignore them, they are seen as ordinary.

It's certainly not the case that all the things that people experience are individual or difficult to understand, vaccinations work by presenting an immune challenge which has a range of general and specific effects on the body. Most of the adverse effects of vaccinations occur as a result of the initial activation of the immune system and commonly occur with most vaccinations and in fact in most infections. These reactions are extensively monitored in various countries, particularly because of its emergency use designation, this means we have data related to around 6.5 billion vaccinations. It's also worth remembering that having a vaccination doesn't stop other health problems, but this doesn't mean that there is no way of knowing why things occur. You use the example of thrombosis, a common problem regardless of vaccination, but in fact the type of thrombosis associated with Covid vaccination tends to be associated with particular vaccines, within a particular timeframe, and it has a number of unusual features along with specific biomarkers. So, when you describe the symptoms of Covid being worse, well that of course is entirely predictable, as is feeling tired. Some of the symptoms that we see in Covid infection can also occur, though they are mild and short-lived, most of these symptoms are the result of systemic effects and occur as a result of our own bodies defences rather than because of particular effects on the CNS, in fact the vaccine doesn't contain the full spike protein, only the instructions to produce specific part of this protein. I suspect some of your speculations about this was one of the issues people reacted to, the symptoms like a fast heart rate are easily explained by the reactivity or even by anxiety.

I suppose the general concern is in the focus on adverse events to the vaccine which when compared to the risks of the disease are really quite trivial, even some precautions taken early in the vaccination campaign have been dropped, the risks being so small. Investigating adverse events to understand them and using the data available to us, we have even managed to reduce some very rare but more dangerous adverse events. Since the UK introduced age restrictions on the use of the astra zenica vaccine, vaccine induced thrombosis has virtually disappeared and the cardiomyopathy associated with the mRNA vaccines hasn't killed anyone for some time.
 
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  • #179
Astronuc
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A county in Washington on Tuesday confirmed that a woman died from blood-clotting complications after receiving Johnson & Johnson's single-dose COVID-19 vaccine. She is believed to be the fourth person to have died from such a complication.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...rome-after-receiving-jandj-vaccine/ar-AAPaMgq

The CDC report nearly 8 million JNJ vaccines have been administered during March and April 2021.
According to information from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), there were 653 reports of fainting events (fainting and near-fainting) among nearly 8 million doses of J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine administered in the United States in March and April 2021.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html

More doses have been given since April. Even so, the risk based on readily available data would be 4 / 8 million, or 0.5 E-6, and that is apparently with folks who have certain rare conditions.
 
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  • #180
russ_watters
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I think artis you might be missing some relevant information about our understanding of Covid 19 and the vaccination...
Let's move on from this line of discussion please. artis won't be returning to the discussion. I can prune the problematic posts if need be, but was hoping to not have to.
 
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  • #181
Laroxe
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...rome-after-receiving-jandj-vaccine/ar-AAPaMgq

The CDC report nearly 8 million JNJ vaccines have been administered during March and April 2021.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html

More doses have been given since April. Even so, the risk based on readily available data would be 4 / 8 million, or 0.5 E-6, and that is apparently with folks who have certain rare conditions.
Yes, this is another viral vector vaccine where this has been seen. I wonder why they haven't applied an age restriction as they have with the Astra Zenica vaccine.
https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-reports-rare-clots-uk-scientists-2021-08-11/
 
  • #182
Tom.G
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A study of common side effects from the vaccine has been posted. The most common is Fatigue (~67%), with Headache running a close second (~60%).

"An objective systematic comparison of the most common adverse events of COVID-19 vaccines"​

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.10.11.21264830v1.full.pdf

Or if you prefer a short synopsis,

"Researchers identify common side effects of three COVID-19 vaccines"​


https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...-side-effects-of-three-COVID-19-vaccines.aspx

Cheers,
Tom
 
  • #184
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I had the real thing and I barely noticed it. Probably because I'm dealing with worse issues, like two autoimmune diseases, but I'm slowly healing, with carnivore diet.
 
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  • #185
russ_watters
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  • #186
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According to https://www.health.gov.au/initiativ...strazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-cause-blood-clots

There has been a link established between the AstraZeneca vaccine and a very rare but serious side effect called thrombosis in combination with thrombocytopenia. There is a very low chance of this side effect, which may occur in around 4-6 people in every million after being vaccinated

This shows that compared to covid 19 deaths getting the vaccine is much lower risk than getting Covid 19 unless you have a pre-existing condition related to vaccination.
 
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  • #187
Laroxe
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Well the vaccine's used were both using killed virus, the traditional approach to many vaccines in the past, it is considered rather less effective than the vaccines using newer technology. Vaccination of course doesn't prevent the day to day risks of adverse health events and in the sad case of the young woman, it seems unlikely that a systematic infection would be related to the vaccine. The mother might blame the vaccine, but unfortunately people do die, even young people and in this case if the diagnosis is right there doesn't seem to be any direct association.

The association for the young man does seem stronger and warrants further investigation. I know that in Thailand around 7.9 million vaccinations have been given with around 24.6 per 100,000 reporting significant side effects, there were also 103 deaths. (1.3 per 100,000). So far, investigations into 43 of these cases have been finished, none were considered to be vaccine related. Overall the rates seem at least comparable to the other vaccines available, the main concern with these vaccines appears to be their lower effectiveness.

It seems that most of the stories and the information is sourced from newspapers without their sources identified and it is true that the data we have on the adverse events to the Chinese vaccines is more limited. However serious illness and deaths remains rare following the vaccine, it looks as if the risks from contracting the disease are around 1000 times greater.

It is true that younger people are less likely to experience a serious illness from Covid-19 and the balance of risks has been the subject of some debate when it comes to vaccinating children. However in the current wave of infections in the west the age demographics of infection appears to have changed with the main drivers of infection being in the 20 – 49 age groups, they tend to be less ill than older people and so maintain their social contacts. Younger children when returning to school, because of their social behaviour can potentially become drivers of infection.
 
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  • #188
morrobay
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The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.
 
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  • #189
Laroxe
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The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.
Yes, I realised that, but the debate follows the reasoning that while 20-year-olds are unlikely to die they are in the age range considered to be responsible for the high rate of infection and they also engage in more risk taking. The greater the number infected the greater the risk, and the risk is real, I recently looked at some figures that showed over 300 deaths in the US in 2021, OK the rate rises quite quickly with age but even so there haven't been that many vaccine related deaths. As you say, its easy to show that covid is more dangerous than vaccinations, but that's because it is, even in 20-year-olds. As age decreases, the risk gets even smaller, and the issue of the primary purpose of vaccination being to protect others becomes even more problematic.

You have to remember that we don't live in isolation and many institutions face the responsibility to provide a safe environment for the people they serve, this is a legal requirement in many places and so many organisations are actually mandating vaccinations, really to protect themselves. Schools and Universities face the same issues and they are not new, think about the requirements for illnesses like measles. It might seem unreasonable but if we live in a society we are always faced with the issue of social responsibility, while the individual has rights so do the individuals they come into contact with. Even now, a 20-year-old can indeed refuse vaccination, that's their right, but that may mean they can't attend University, they can't get a job and they can't travel abroad, because these organisations have rights as well. It's an interesting moral problem, but when you have ante vaccine /anti mask demonstrations to support their beliefs with threats of violence, it makes the moral uncertainty much easier to bear.
 
  • #190
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Unfortunately I lost my psychiatrist due to a vaccine mandate being put on people who provide health services here in NZ. He was rather good and having just lost my social worker (who moved onto the role of a social worker in a prison setting), I now need to acquaint myself with new people who don't know me to have my mental health treated. Notes can be handy, but I've had this psychiatrist since 2012.

I had my suspicions when I first asked him 'have you had the jab' and he replied 'that's private medical information'. When I met with my new nurse today, who broke the news to me that he quit, she mentioned its in the news -- online -- where he expresses his view for not getting the Pfizer vaccine (said in his capacity as a private citizen). A subsequent Google has presented those items to me - a video, a news article and two letters he wrote to our Prime Minister (back in 2020 and again 2021).
 
  • #191
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The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.
This only considers fatalities. 20-somethings like everyone else, can still get long haul symptoms from Covid when they aren't vaccinated.
 
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  • #192
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The case I'm trying to make is against healthy in their 20,s getting vaccinated. At least 90% of covid fatalities in Thailand are related to the co morbidities: overweight, age, kidney disease, hypertension, diabetes. I'm surprised some of these people are still walking around. So it's easy to show covid is more lethal than vaccinations. Again it's is only the subset , healthy twenties, that I am referring to.
And they can also pass it along to more vulnerable people who may be immunocompromised. And they can provide the system within which the virus can mutate and naturally select.
Please try to see beyond the end of your nose...........

.
 
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  • #193
Borg
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And they can also pass it along to more vulnerable people who may be immunocompromised. And they can provide the system within which the virus can mutate and naturally select.
Please try to see beyond the end of your nose...........

.
I've explained this to people using a water analogy. If you're vaccinated you're like a small puddle of water where the virus can mutate. If not, you're the equivalent of Hudson Bay.

Obviously not to scale. :oldtongue:
 
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  • #195
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You are not alone.


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  • #196
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My wife and I had our booster (third) doses of the Moderna vaccine two days ago, Wednesday afternoon. On Thursday, my side effects compared to the second dose in March were stronger in some ways (aches, chills and general "lousiness") but weaker in others (no fever or headache). Now, Friday evening, they're mostly gone.

My wife was affected more strongly than I, but less than her second dose.
 
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  • #197
pinball1970
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Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions.


https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205627/conscript-dies-day-after-second-vaccine-shot
Vaccine programs work on populations not individuals. With something like this, a novel virus with previously unknown pathology there is absolutely no reason to avoid vaccination if that age group has been given the ok.
I think the only real sticking point in the UK was 12-15 year age group. The Vaccine advisory body JCVI advised against and the government decided to go ahead but it was not clear cut. Very Marginal benefits verses marginal risk from the Vaccine. Cases were approaching 50,000 per day at the time and these were (and still are ) translating to deaths.
The kids are not dying they are visiting Nana who will die because she is 83.
We hit a high of 263 deaths in a day this week which would give us 96000 deaths in a year. Edit. Yes @PeroK I've changed my mind.
 
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  • #198
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Well the vaccine's used were both using killed virus, the traditional approach to many vaccines in the past, it is considered rather less effective than the vaccines using newer technology. Vaccination of course doesn't prevent the day to day risks of adverse health events and in the sad case of the young woman, it seems unlikely that a systematic infection would be related to the vaccine. The mother might blame the vaccine, but unfortunately people do die, even young people and in this case if the diagnosis is right there doesn't seem to be any direct association.

The association for the young man does seem stronger and warrants further investigation. I know that in Thailand around 7.9 million vaccinations have been given with around 24.6 per 100,000 reporting significant side effects, there were also 103 deaths. (1.3 per 100,000). So far, investigations into 43 of these cases have been finished, none were considered to be vaccine related. Overall the rates seem at least comparable to the other vaccines available, the main concern with these vaccines appears to be their lower effectiveness.

It seems that most of the stories and the information is sourced from newspapers without their sources identified and it is true that the data we have on the adverse events to the Chinese vaccines is more limited. However serious illness and deaths remains rare following the vaccine, it looks as if the risks from contracting the disease are around 1000 times greater.

It is true that younger people are less likely to experience a serious illness from Covid-19 and the balance of risks has been the subject of some debate when it comes to vaccinating children. However in the current wave of infections in the west the age demographics of infection appears to have changed with the main drivers of infection being in the 20 – 49 age groups, they tend to be less ill than older people and so maintain their social contacts. Younger children when returning to school, because of their social behaviour can potentially become drivers of infection.
There is one and only one type of source anyone should be trusting or posting here, IMHO: peer reviewed scientific publications.
 
  • #199
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Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions.
You left out the word "selfish" in front of healthy.
 
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  • #200
Laroxe
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There is one and only one type of source anyone should be trusting or posting here, IMHO: peer reviewed scientific publications.
Not all information is available in such a form and not everything labelled as scientific is trustworthy. We all. and this includes researchers, have to have a starting point perhaps in theory or in observation, maybe of single events, but we then must be able to think critically about the issue. Simply repeating what is said in research would be very boring, we learn from discussing evidence, it allows us to use the expertise of everyone involved. Having said that, the principle you restate is a good one, these publications have at least some sort of review of quality of the information it contains and the articles are written in a way that should help in a critical review.

The management of Covid-19 is embedded in science, but, as yet we can't claim to have many definitive answers. The actions taken by individuals or governments are often based on the selective information of sources with clear biases. There are then moral, ethical, social and economic issues to consider, exactly the same issues that scientists have to take into account in the methods they use and in their conclusions, we ignore this at our peril. I think discussing giving the vaccine to young people, who are unlikely to directly benefit and when the balance of risk/benefit assessments offers less support, has been discussed in the media and is useful. It's become even more relevant as vaccine mandates are being introduced across the world, the issue is ultimately an ethical one and the science uncertain, but, we can't have scientists campaigning for more evidence based government and then dodging difficult issues.
 
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