Reaction to COVID-19 Vaccine (or what to be prepared for)

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  • #202
Grasshopper
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Not all information is available in such a form and not everything labelled as scientific is trustworthy. We all. and this includes researchers, have to have a starting point perhaps in theory or in observation, maybe of single events, but we then must be able to think critically about the issue. Simply repeating what is said in research would be very boring, we learn from discussing evidence, it allows us to use the expertise of everyone involved. Having said that, the principle you restate is a good one, these publications have at least some sort of review of quality of the information it contains and the articles are written in a way that should help in a critical review.

The management of Covid-19 is embedded in science, but, as yet we can't claim to have many definitive answers. The actions taken by individuals or governments are often based on the selective information of sources with clear biases. There are then moral, ethical, social and economic issues to consider, exactly the same issues that scientists have to take into account in the methods they use and in their conclusions, we ignore this at our peril. I think discussing giving the vaccine to young people, who are unlikely to directly benefit and when the balance of risk/benefit assessments offers less support, has been discussed in the media and is useful. It's become even more relevant as vaccine mandates are being introduced across the world, the issue is ultimately an ethical one and the science uncertain, but, we can't have scientists campaigning for more evidence based government and then dodging difficult issues.
Perhaps, but look at the world we live in today. What was fringe fifteen years ago is now proudly shared online, and millions get their minds infected with things like flat earth stupidity, QAnon stupidity, and on and on. We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists. Now they are making public policy.

This is a problem. I would argue possibly the biggest existential threat to our species outside of war, natural disasters and climate change. People who think Facebook is trustworthy but New England Journal of Medicine isn’t are making the laws.

So yeah, anecdotal evidence and random online information has is place. But I am exceedingly skeptical of it on account of the fact that maybe up to a third of the people in my country believe people in the party with political views differing from their own worship Satan and literally eat children.
 
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  • #203
russ_watters
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Ok my posts have a narrow scope. And from the perspective of healthy twenty year olds decisions.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205627/conscript-dies-day-after-second-vaccine-shot
If our hypothetical 20 year old is primed for vaccine hesitancy, isn't scientifically minded and can be sent over the edge by facebook-style sensational anecdotes, then these articles might speak to him/er. But we should be fighting against that here, not promoting it. On PF we demand a higher quality of discussion and I hope PF members take the higher quality discourse out into the world and spread/apply it.

The statistics for major vaccine reactions are public knowledge and the statistics for COVID deaths by age are public knowledge. Find them! Compare them!

*Caveat: these particular links are from Bangkok and the first was regarding a Chinese vaccine, which doesn't have published data as far as I'm aware. But it may be possible to compare ones using the same technology.
 
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  • #204
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Perhaps, but look at the world we live in today. What was fringe fifteen years ago is now proudly shared online, and millions get their minds infected with things like flat earth stupidity, QAnon stupidity, and on and on. We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists. Now they are making public policy.

This is a problem. I would argue possibly the biggest existential threat to our species outside of war, natural disasters and climate change. People who think Facebook is trustworthy but New England Journal of Medicine isn’t are making the laws.

So yeah, anecdotal evidence and random online information has is place. But I am exceedingly skeptical of it on account of the fact that maybe up to a third of the people in my country believe people in the party with political views differing from their own worship Satan and literally eat children.
There is no doubt that there is a serious issue about the public confidence in the products of science and in the ancient war between belief and evidence, people make choices for all sorts of reasons.

However, in the issue of vaccinations we do have a great deal of evidence from both science and experience, but in the issue of vaccination of young people there are some perfectly valid concerns, concerns that arise from the risk assessment based on evidence. I've linked to the advice given to the UK government, which, if nothing else, shows the thinking about age and risk and many would consider the people at 20 of very low personal risk. The main concern is in the use of medical interventions for the benefit of others rather than the recipient, you might notice that in the USA the recommendations are different.

While personally, I see no real problem in vaccinating younger people, something, that in fact, is justified in the advice relating to the social behaviour of adolescents. I do see problems in labelling all concerns as stupid because they are different from our own, we should at least find out the basis for those concerns.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...children-aged-12-to-15-years-3-september-2021
 
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  • #205
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By the way, roughly 6 months ago I got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine and on Saturday (two days ago at time of writing) I got the Moderna booster, and this morning I got a flu vaccine. I got them in different arms and unsurprisingly my reaction to the flu vaccine was more mild compared to the booster and even more mild compared to the vaccine itself. In all 3 cases I had soreness, fatigue and my shoulders hurt especially in my arm pits.
 
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  • #206
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I had the J&J about six months ago and it gave me what felt like a slight overnight fever (I woke up but I didn't get out of bed to measure it). No fever in the morning, but I felt fatigued with some mild body aches the next day and I had a very tender arm at the injection site for roughly a week.

Yesterday I got my booster (I opted for the J&J again). No side effects after 24 hours except a very slightly sore arm (an order of magnitude less sore than the first time).
 
  • #207
Tom.G
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I had the J&J about six months ago and it gave me what felt like a slight overnight fever (I woke up but I didn't get out of bed to measure it). No fever in the morning, but I felt fatigued with some mild body aches the next day and I had a very tender arm at the injection site for roughly a week. Yesterday I got my booster (I opted for the J&J again). No side effects after 24 hours except a very slightly sore arm (an order of magnitude less sore than the first time).
 
  • #208
phinds
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@Tom.G I assume you intended to do something more here than simply quote the entirety of the previous post, but nothing else came through.
 
  • #209
jim mcnamara
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@Tom.G said issue was due to an ancient browser, he switched browsers and access is much better.
 
  • #210
Tom.G
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This has also been added to the OP to make that a complete history.

After 8 months, I got my Moderna Booster shot 4 days ago... Overall, a 'Piece of Cake!' Here are the details:
Hour
0 - Received the Moderna Booster, barely felt the needle and injection
24 - Slept 10 hrs., afternoon nap 1.5 hrs., mild low energy & brain fog, mild - moderate discomfort around injection site
48 - Slept 6 hrs., heart arrythemia, pulse varies between 59-72 within minutes, normal 63, self-corrects after several hours.. Bed 1hr early
72 - Slept 11.5 hrs., 8.5 hrs. is normal, otherwise I feel OK, arm soreness almost gone

Much better than after that second shot!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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  • #211
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I got my Moderna booster this morning.

No noticeable side effects. Shot site is just very slightly tender (I was much more sore after first two shots).

Good luck to all getting their boosters!
 
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  • #212
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Possibly spoke too soon: very early this morning...felt my chest was heavy (had to sit up from lying on couch), developed a cough, and feel weak with chills throughout my body (and a nauseous feel).

Eating chihcken noodle soup now....hopefully will go away soon.
 
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  • #213
pinball1970
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Possibly spoke too soon: very early this morning...felt my chest was heavy (had to sit up from lying on couch), developed a cough, and feel weak with chills throughout my body (and a nauseous feel).

Eating chihcken noodle soup now....hopefully will go away soon.
Hope it passes
 
  • #214
hutchphd
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Report: got Pfizer booster 24 hrs ago. Previous 2nd Moderna was 8 month previous with moderate usual response of mild fever and a couple of puffy lymph nodes. The switch to Pfizer was purely logistical . So far very mild reaction: had a nap and good night's sleep with only modest arm soreness.

Is it possible that the Pfizer/Moderna combination will broaden the protection envelope? Any contraindications?
 
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  • #215
Ygggdrasil
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Report: got Pfizer booster 24 hrs ago. Previous 2nd Moderna was 8 month previous with moderate usual response of mild fever and a couple of puffy lymph nodes. The switch to Pfizer was purely logistical . So far very mild reaction: had a nap and good night's sleep with only modest arm soreness.

Is it possible that the Pfizer/Moderna combination will broaden the protection envelope? Any contraindications?
Because they are both based on mRNA technology, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are likely functionally equivalent and there is probably not a lot of difference between the two (the main difference is that the initial two doses of Moderna had more mRNA than Pfizer, but the Moderna dose is halved for the booster, so it's a similar amount as Pfizer).

There is some evidence that a heterologous boost (i.e. boosting J&J with an mRNA vaccine or vice versa) may provide better protection.
 
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  • #216
pinball1970
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Moderna booster today.
54 years old ok shape, asthma requiring steroids but moderate not severe.

Sore arm and distress at another needle but that's it.
In terms of this year.

March - AZ shot one
June - AZ shot two
Nov 7-17th Covid 19. No lung issues, at home sick for about 4 days recovered quickly by time isolation was completed.( Thanks Science guys!)
Dec 8th Moderna.

Immunologically I really do not think I could be any more equipped against Covid. In a few weeks anyway.
 
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  • #217
hutchphd
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One of mine made my armpit lymph glands swell (a verified bubo!) so I'm going to tell everyone that the vaccine causes the plague. Maybe (if foxy) I can get on TV :"Dr says vaccine likely causes the plague". Yes I am too a real Doctor......
 
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  • #218
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vaccine likely causes the plague
- the question is, does this unprecedented heavy vaccination overload the immune system so as to make it unable to resist an unexpected attack. The answer is yet to be known.
 
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  • #219
hutchphd
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There are many unknowns. This is why idle speculation is not called science.
 
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  • #220
jim mcnamara
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@AlexCaledin
In the time it takes to read to this post:

Your immune system will have reacted to numerous different viral and bacterial epitopes and well as the sialic acid, lectins and so on in food. If you have allergies even more activity roared along in what is really an overreaction. This goes on as long as you live.

The only "overloading" occurs when a pathogen goes undetected or is brand new to the immune system.

Then the pathogen gets dumped en masse or multiplies undetected for a while into the body somehow. "Undetection" is often like stealth mode for pathogens. Think of it as a race that you always want the immune system to win. Unvaccinated Covid patients get a fever on the third or fourth day of the infection. Delta won because it reproduces super fast. 3 days to transmissable. Looks like Omicron maybe faster with the most new virions. The only solution is to give your immune system a head start - it is called vaccination. Your immune system kicks in much sooner, the virus cannot get a foot hold. Why? because you gave it a "heads up" in identifying that bad guys.

Did you know that the Polio vaccines you got as kid are still remembered and kept at the ready 30 years later in special memory cells in the immune system?

So your comment is not correct as stated. If you want to make comments it is always expected that you can back them up with (especially in this case) some basic reference. For example, Twitter is not that kind reference.

Consider:
This is a great book. It is humorous. You do not need extensive background to read it. It has everyday kinds of examples. From Kurzgesacht : Immune: A Journey into the Mysterious System That Keeps You Alive
 
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  • #221
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"Multiple studies have shown that long-term innate immune responses can be either increased (trained immunity) or down-regulated (innate immune tolerance) after certain vaccines or infections.”

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ccine-reprograms-innate-immune-responses.aspx

"Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines

...

Historically, vaccine research has been focused on whether or not vaccination could generate neutralizing antibodies to protect against viral infections, whereas short-term and long-term influences of the various newly developed vaccines to human pathophysiology and other perspectives of the human immune system have not been fully investigated."


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00329-3
 
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  • #222
Hello All,

I am happy that you have been vaccinated. I find it very hard to believe that there are medical professionals that will get the vaccine. I guess they do not believe in the their peers or science. In that case how can they work in medicine? Anyway my wife, child, and I have all been vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine. My wife and I had very little to no side effects for all three shots. My daughter who is 8 had the first of the series and she had arm soreness at the injection site. that is all that we have experienced through 7 shots so far. I hope everyone has as good an experience. Even if you have a few side effects the vaccine benefits far outweigh the mild symptoms. Good luck everyone!

David
 
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  • #223
pinball1970
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"Multiple studies have shown that long-term innate immune responses can be either increased (trained immunity) or down-regulated (innate immune tolerance) after certain vaccines or infections.”

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ccine-reprograms-innate-immune-responses.aspx

"Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines

...

Historically, vaccine research has been focused on whether or not vaccination could generate neutralizing antibodies to protect against viral infections, whereas short-term and long-term influences of the various newly developed vaccines to human pathophysiology and other perspectives of the human immune system have not been fully investigated."


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00329-3
Is there a 'therefore' to this?
The nature article says this has the taken into consideration with vaccine development. Agreed. Just like any other clinical procedure drug, vaccine program, constant scrutiny and improvements.
They could have done the scrutiny and improvements on these prior to the global roll out and had all boxes ticked by 2023 say but a lot more people would have been dead by then.
 
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  • #224
jim mcnamara
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@AlexCaledin - thanks for the reference, but none support what you said about vaccines causing overloading.

Cytokine storms are a form of overreaction and what causes a lot of pathology in Covid patients. Caused by the Covid virus. Not vaccines.

Any exterior allergen that gets into the human body in small amount can cause anaphylactic shock. That is not overload, it is an extreme overreaction, like the immune system You need to be sensitized to the allergen first, usually.

Overload implies more pathogens or allergens than the body can handle.

Since you clearly want to assert that you are correct, go for it. We just do not need it here. Try Reddit. Thanks.

https://www.newscientist.com/definition/cytokine-storm/

You really should consider reading the book I mentioned.
 
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  • #225
Ygggdrasil
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"Multiple studies have shown that long-term innate immune responses can be either increased (trained immunity) or down-regulated (innate immune tolerance) after certain vaccines or infections.”

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ccine-reprograms-innate-immune-responses.aspx

"Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines

...

Historically, vaccine research has been focused on whether or not vaccination could generate neutralizing antibodies to protect against viral infections, whereas short-term and long-term influences of the various newly developed vaccines to human pathophysiology and other perspectives of the human immune system have not been fully investigated."


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00329-3

It should be noted that the research article studies patients vaccinated with an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine produced by China Biotechnology Group Corporation. This vaccine is not in use in the United States, and it is based on a different technology (inactivated virus) than the vaccines currently authorized for use in the US (Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA vaccines and the J&J vaccine is an adenoviral vaccine).

The paper also has some major methodological issues. The study looked at only 11 participants and did not include a control group (all comparisons were made relative to samples taken before vaccination). The paper also strikes me as a paper that makes a ton of measurements to fish for results that are statistically significant (i.e. a green jelly bean experiment):
significant.png

https://xkcd.com/882/

While they do find some statistically significant differences in the data they collect, it's not clear whether the magnitude of the changes are biologically significant (indeed, because the study lacks a control group, it's not even clear if the changes are larger than the expected amount of naturally occurring variation).

It's not surprising that the scientists could measure some differences before and after vaccination. The bigger question is whether those changes are linked to any significant health outcomes. Despite our long history with inactivated virus vaccines, scientists have not seen a lot of major alterations of the type you are hypothesizing. Similarly, researchers have been on the lookout for adverse events linked to COVID-19 vaccines (even discovering rare blood clotting events that happen ~ one in one million vaccinations), but also have not seen adverse events suggestive of your hypothesis.
 
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