Reality and energy

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  • #126
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Mr. P.,
Most I think that it is unresolved isses that are coming up. which of couirse contains unlearned lessons to be learned. Its like cleaning house, not spring cleaning in this case, more like fall cleaning. We all have to go through it to one degree or another. It is also a source of distraction as I/we get hung up on some things that happened long ago.
It is not that I dispare; but, more to let others know that they are not alone and that they can get through it. Meditation can be and ussually is painful though we may not know the source of the pain.
Once through it even partially we begin to reep the benifits of inner knowledge and peace. Once we let go of the negative things like rage, anger, shame, and guilt we are filled instead with truth, light, peace and yes even joy. The negatives are gone forever and can no longer hurt or harm us just and the peace and harmony are forever.
 
  • #127
Royce, I agree, from experiance....God's Grace, in my life...
(as it is in all lives)
 
  • #128
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Originally posted by ambient
Hello everyone!

I was quite enterntained by this thread.
However, it really surprises me that the
only truly objective and scientifically
rigorous person here is Mumeishi!
Hey, what are you trying to say? http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sauer/angry-smiley-019.gif [Broken]

Bash me, trash me, argue with me, but what I have stated
here are for the most part real life facts. Tough to deal
with for some, but REAL nonetheless.
Well, inspite of the fact that I agree with your conclusion (even if not with your method of presentation), I must mention that there are still serious scientists who are working toward a theory of "quantum consciousness". I may think such an attempt is foolish, when the mathematics of QM work just fine to describe the physics without conciousness ever even being mentioned, but anyone who thinks they can make it work is entitled to try.

ambient, it would do you much good to cease stating scientific knowledge as though it were fact. The Scientific Method is not designed so that one might preach absolute truth, but is (instead) very plastic and changeable.
 
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  • #129
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Originally posted by Mentat

ambient, it would do you much good to cease stating scientific knowledge as though it were fact. The Scientific Method is not designed so that one might preach absolute truth, but is (instead) very plastic and changeable.
Well said Mentat, I'm proud of you. This is so much better than your devil's advocate facade.
 
  • #130
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To Mentat:

Actually, after reading this thread again, I've
realized that you are another person who can
make a very well stated and coherent point.

I agree that I should not word my posts in the
way that suggests that science provides us with
facts. I realize that science rather provides
us with approximations, with the most accurate
answers possible at the time, yet these answers
may not always be the absolute truth.

However, at this point in time they provide us
with the best tools to help us understand
reality. They are the best in the context of
objectivity.

I am not completely discounting the fact that
we do construct our own reality, for all I know
nothing but my very conciousness is real. But there
is a vast amount of evidence that can show that this
theory is wrong.

In the end, I believe that our belief system should be
based on the most plausible and sound approximations.
Which makes the probabilty of them being facts very high.

On the other hand, any notion that contradicts the
scientific norm and does not show much proof, is not
impossible, but rather improbable.
 
  • #131
Ambient you do realize this is the "Metaphysics and Epistimology" forum, right? not QM or SR "rigor servile"....
 
  • #132


Originally posted by ambient
Gosh, all of this misunderstanding in
Quantum Mechanics about the duality
of the particles brought forward
silly notions of consciosness being
able to alter reality. Yes, from initial
explanation of particle duality, you could
possibly derive that, but the thing is that
the definition of uncertainty was flawed.
Kinda funny you say that, Dr. David Suzuki's television show "The Nature of Things" did a show on just that topic, with Scientific measure of results ("method" {Metaphysical?} is as yet unmeasurable..) that would lend 'credance' to the idea that there is an as yet unmeasured aspect of the Human mind that HAS influence over matter, so until the method is measurable the results are argueably arguable...

Originally posted by ambient
For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.
A challenge? HUH?

Originally posted by ambient
and my favorite - eye-gouging.
Cheese, nice guy....

Originally posted by ambient
P.S. Do they speak English in Nova Scotia? Doesn't seem like it.
Asked you why you asked, they do, been there N S E & W ....
 
  • #133
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To Mr. Parsons:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ambient
For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A challenge? HUH?
What I mean is that at this stage in our development even
our language lacks proper terms for describing and
defining quantum physics. I am not quite sure what you were trying
to say by quoting my post.

As for the eye-gouging - it is a rather effective technique. That
or fist to the throat, solar plexes, kick to the knee of shin.
Kicking someone in the groin can be effective, but nowadays most
fighters anticipate it. Anyways, I am not an aggressive person,
actually I would do as much as I could to avoid a fight.

I asked whether they spoke English in Nova Scotia because "WOLF"
seems to have very superficial knowledge of the English language.
Now, I am not the best speller myself, but what he does on this
post is horrible, and it takes away from his credibility as well.
 
  • #134
Originally posted by ambient
What I mean is that at this stage in our development even
our language lacks proper terms for describing and
defining quantum physics. I am not quite sure what you were trying
to say by quoting my post. Something like what you point out above, but adding in that, it can be done, and the English language is sufficient to do it...

As for the eye-gouging - it is a rather effective technique. That
or fist to the throat, solar plexes, kick to the knee of shin.
Kicking someone in the groin can be effective, but nowadays most
fighters anticipate it. Anyways, I am not an aggressive person,
actually I would do as much as I could to avoid a fight. Thanks for the clarification, as a LAST resort it might be needed to defend a life, but your saying it was Your "Favorite" leads people to believe otherwise...you can understand that, right?

I asked whether they spoke English in Nova Scotia because "WOLF"
seems to have very superficial knowledge of the English language.
Now, I am not the best speller myself, but what he does on this
post is horrible, and it takes away from his credibility as well.
It was a sorta vague reference and to impune the reputations of all Acadians, based upon your experiance with one, well, tells clearly of your judgmental abilities(!)??
 
  • #135
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My apologies

quick apologies for my poor spelling for all who want to know i was in french for half os my education. so i have a hard time spelling in english but trust me what i speak of i know about. for if one knows not about something one should not speak of it and that is not this case i know what i speak of i just have a hard time converting it to writen or typed work so my sincer apologies for all who have had a hard time reading my post.also my apologies for not posting in the past 2 weeks for i have been busy.i asure all who is reading that i will post more frequant more knowledgable post and most of all easier to read.
 
  • #136
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To ambient

ambient this is for your RUDE,IGNORANT MOST BLATANT REMARKS I HAVE HEARD IN YEARS.Being a former student of a master whom had 21 black belts (including the ones you had named) and being told personaly by him that Nin-Jitsu,Central Kung-Fu and Adv tae-kwon-doe are The Top Ultimate martial arts and then for someone to say that the lowest rating martial arts in the world are "the only working ones" i actually must aplaud you.........FOR GIVING ME THE GREATEST LAUGH I HAVE HAD IN YEARS....Then for you to argue what chi can do and for you to Disgrace it's very name the way you did....Tells me that you have no clue what chi is.....And for one to speak of a subject they know nothing of is for one to venture unto the lions den blind.......i am assuming that you have not that much fighting experience or you would not say that kung-fu and that other flashy stuff does not work.....and even if you do have fighting experience i Garunte your experience is no where near mine.....i am not a violent person but i do have experience from tournaments trust when i say that what you mostly what you described does not work....also when you said that only one person is speaking science in this thread, is well proving your ignorance furthur......incase you have not noticed some way this thread is under M-E-T-A-P-H-Y-S-I-C-S- and with that i am done if you wish to debate anything i have said then post or add me to msn if you have it .......my email is Tempestwolfmaxxedout@hotmail.com and if any one else would like to talk about any of these subjects please feel free to do so
 
  • #137
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Again

Why is it that in a metaphysical thread ppl are speaking only in science and are refusing to except othjer posiblities???is it because they are afraid to seek out other sources of "true" info???or is that that science has "proven" this if so they i ask this ......How do you know science is right??? where you there when it was proven?????was there some omni potent force that came down and said "this is right???? what i am saying is "why except but one truth when there could be many?"this is why i like metaphysics and "study" it(i used the quotes because you canot study metaphysics because it is a natural skill of simple questions and anwseres that lead to more questions but you can get better at it by "studying" it or using it as much as posible)because it excepts the posibilities of more then one definite answer.
 
  • #138
onycho


Originally posted by ambient


Gosh, all of this misunderstanding in
Quantum Mechanics about the duality
of the particles brought forward
silly notions of consciosness being
able to alter reality. Yes, from initial
explanation of particle duality, you could
possibly derive that, but the thing is that
the definition of uncertainty was flawed.


Ambient it is rather simplistic to think that consciousness has anything to do with QM particle duality or waves with unique properties. Human beings seem to associate their own consciousness with an activity within the brain. The brain, like everything else, is simply a directed formation of basic particles designed in an irreducible complexity. Nothing indicates that these particle/wave properties can comprehend their surroundings or choose anything independently. You are correct in the concept of 'mind altering matter' being flawed.

For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.


Unfortunately wave with unique properties (acting sometimes like particles) should not appear to have independent wisdom or affect particles billions of light years away instantly. This violates the basic tenet of Einstein that nothing travels faster than the light photon. If anyone feels they have a solid hold on QM physics, they are very much mistaken.

There are so many imponderables in QM that are not yet known.
 
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  • #139
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Condsider a profound mystery in biology that is not accounted for by classical assumptions. The average neuron consists of about 80 percent water and about 100,000 molecules. The brain contains about 10 billion cells, hence about 10x15 molecules. Each nerve cell in the brain receives an average of 10,000 connections from other brain cells, and the molecules within each cell are renewed about 10,000 times in a lifetime. We loose about 1,000 cells a day, so the total brain cell population is decimated by about 10 million cells, losing in the process some 100 billion cross-linkages. "And yet" "despite this ceaseless change of detail in the vast population of elements, our basic patterns of behavior, our memories, our sense of intergral existence as an individual, have retained there unitary continuity of pattern". All of the material used to express that pattern has disappeared, and yet the pattern still exist. What holds the pattern, if not matter? Classical physics tells us that atoms and electrons of the same type are undifferentiated. How do the atoms that compose memory know how to pass on the information? Because they most certainly do.

Another conundrum before i make my point, what happens, after a long days work of the human mind thinking, through quantum tunnelling to make all those synapses convert into memory. Upon leaving the wake state and entering the dream state all electrons in the brain are in a state. Upon leaving the dream state and entering the wake state in order for us to know who we are those same electrons would have to be in exactly the same state as the previous. If they were not, how is it that we do not wake up with a differnt personality or new reality?

Something is going on here that is affecting QM in a sub-quantum level. Everything indicates that these particle/wave properties can comprehend their surroundings or choose anything independently.
It appears mind and matter might be undifferentiated also.
 
  • #140
onycho
Actually in my humble opinion, consciousness and awareness are not located within the brain or its billions of neuronal connections.

You have pointed out the problems in this metaphysics discussion. Some say that a part of this conundrum is found in those who have Alzheimers or injury to the brain. The human is no longer able to live in this physical world. The human consciousness slowly diminishes while in the 'brain' conscious awareness slowly disappears.

It appears that all our consciousness is within a giant holograph that not only creates our brain but its awareness of our everyday life and assumption of existence.

http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

This premis would explain many things. The apparent connection of all the particles of the universe or what is on the other side of our universe border or simply the questions you have posed can be answered by a super-holographic dimensional universe.

As time goes on, I think that we will begin to understand the true reality of existence minus our daily reality.

But this is only my opinion.
 

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  • #141
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Originally posted by onycho
Actually in my humble opinion, consciousness and awareness are not located within the brain or its billions of neuronal connections.

I would agree with this statement but, we have to analize this a little closer and define this more than in a few simple words. It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

You have pointed out the problems in this metaphysics discussion. Some say that a part of this conundrum is found in those who have Alzheimers or injury to the brain. The human is no longer able to live in this physical world. The human consciousness slowly diminishes while in the 'brain' conscious awareness slowly disappears.

This is an interesting analogy also. If what i state was not so having alzheimers, getting drunk or taking drugs should not affect our conscious awareness. Biology plays a part but it is secondary, we can affect changes in consciousness and awareness by doing biological manipilations. In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

It appears that all our consciousness is within a giant holograph that not only creates our brain but its awareness of our everyday life and assumption of existence.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for socialogical reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0


http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

This premis would explain many things. The apparent connection of all the particles of the universe or what is on the other side of our universe border or simply the questions you have posed can be answered by a super-holographic dimensional universe.

We know there are many syconocities. We know that there are strang links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

As time goes on, I think that we will begin to understand the true reality of existence minus our daily reality.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

But this is only my opinion.
 
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  • #142
onycho
Originally posted by Rader

It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

I am having a little difficulty with your statement. Matter is conscious but I do not think it depends on any extent of complexity. In previous posts I have stated that I believe that all matter or particles in the universe are probably equally conscious and aware. Humans are very complex and yet we are composed of nothing more or less than the same subatomic matter/particles as that within a star, a mouse, a photon or even gravitons. The basic question is what makes the particles that make up humans or animals animate? What gives our particles consciousness when in my opinion all the other particles in the universe have the same cognition? As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything I find a problem here. WHERE DID CONSCIOUSNESS AND AWARENESS ARISE AND WHAT IS ITS SOURCE?

In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

I see consciousness and awareness existing in a timelessness which only manifests itself in our short reality for a short 'time' span in an infinity continuum. I do not think that consciousness or awareness grows or appears at birth or death. In my opinion, our conscious awareness existed an infinity before we were born and will continue in the same dimension for an infinity of timelessness after we leave this plane of existence in which we assume.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for socialogical reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0


Scientists and regular humans assume that we exist in a solid state world with awareness of things. Scientists are busy measuring and experimenting and computing that which their consciousness awareness finds present. I am not so sure that reality can be so measured.

We know there are many syconocities. We know that there are strang links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

I believe that there are some questions and answers that are way beyond our finite reach. I perceive the air around me but can I measure the atoms in this air? This is only a simple illustration of that which illuminates our knowledge of things not available to our senses or knowledge.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

Maybe everything was designed by an Originator who placed a long chain encrypted code of His design that is available to our decryption as we speak. But that is another story.
 
  • #143
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Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

I am having a little difficulty with your statement. Matter is conscious but I do not think it depends on any extent of complexity. In previous posts I have stated that I believe that all matter or particles in the universe are probably equally conscious and aware. Humans are very complex and yet we are composed of nothing more or less than the same subatomic matter/particles as that within a star, a mouse, a photon or even gravitons. The basic question is what makes the particles that make up humans or animals animate? What gives our particles consciousness when in my opinion all the other particles in the universe have the same cognition? As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything I find a problem here. WHERE DID CONSCIOUSNESS AND AWARENESS ARISE AND WHAT IS ITS SOURCE?

Let me be more specific. All matter is conscious and aware and would have the potentiality, to be anything, through a decision process, with design built into it. Yes we are all built of the same waves/particles but not all systems reflect the level of consciousness and awareness equally, the determining factor is complexity. What makes things animate?, my assumption is consciousness, life, Designer. Do these three words have to be separate entities?, could they not be the same thing? What gives our particles consciousness? Complexity of matter, with hidden variables, in the design that we know nothing of yet. In our matrix, it appears to us that both matter and consciousness does evolve, but only within the context of the I.. It appears that the most fundamental building block is waves since we assume that we can see only particles. It appears that when a body returns to innate matter, there is no consciousness, awareness or life, at the level it once had. The innate matter is still conscious but only of what it can be at that level, with its potentiality to be again. As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything, a doorway for matter to manifest the I.

In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

I see consciousness and awareness existing in a timelessness which only manifests itself in our short reality for a short 'time' span in an infinity continuum. I do not think that consciousness or awareness grows or appears at birth or death. In my opinion, our conscious awareness existed an infinity before we were born and will continue in the same dimension for an infinity of timelessness after we leave this plane of existence in which we assume.

We are trying to describe the same side of the coin with different faces. I understand what you write but interpret it differently. A individual human being never makes use of that potentiality of consciousness and awareness if it dies at birth, it must live the individual life. One thing that really bothers me, is if something of what we are survives this matrix, what i refer to specifically is not only soul but knowledge of the I.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for sociological reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0


Scientists and regular humans assume that we exist in a solid state world with awareness of things. Scientists are busy measuring and experimenting and computing that which their consciousness awareness finds present. I am not so sure that reality can be so measured.

I am aware of the way it appears to be. Measurement is an undetermined function in our matrix, due to the fact that measurement stick keeps getting smaller, the closer we try to measure. Time also plays the same tricks on us to measure. Reality not the matrix seems to indicate, the ultimate measurement might just not have a time or measurement to it.

We know there are many synchronicities. We know that there are strange links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

I believe that there are some questions and answers that are way beyond our finite reach. I perceive the air around me but can I measure the atoms in this air? This is only a simple illustration of that which illuminates our knowledge of things not available to our senses or knowledge.

Yes but then again there seems to be great evidence of things around us and not so very near us that we can perceive at any distance. What I mean is that mind seems to affect matter in ways we are only beginning to understand.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

Maybe everything was designed by an Originator who placed a long chain encrypted code of His design that is available to our decryption as we speak. But that is another story.
Maybe
 
  • #144
onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Let me be more specific. All matter is conscious and aware and would have the potentiality, to be anything, through a decision process, with design built into it.
Whose design?


Yes we are all built of the same waves/particles but not all systems reflect the level of consciousness and awareness equally, the determining factor is complexity.
What makes one system more complex than another?

What makes things animate?, my assumption is consciousness, life, Designer. Do these three words have to be separate entities?, could they not be the same thing?
Designer = consciousness = life ~ animation? Can life create a Designer? Can consciousnes create a Designer? Does a Designer require life (as we know it) or consciousness (as we know it) as a priori for animation or the Designer's own ominsience?

What gives our particles consciousness? Complexity of matter, with hidden variables, in the design that we know nothing of yet. In our matrix, it appears to us that both matter and consciousness does evolve, but only within the context of the I.. It appears that the most fundamental building block is waves since we assume that we can see only particles.
What makes matter and particle consciousness evolve and from what do they evolve? You say that hidden variables not yet known have a complexity for particle/matter to be both conscious and animate or have these effects always been present in an infinity of timelessness? Why must we assume that the basic building block be a wave since our senses can only appreciate particles being present? Is the 'I' a wave, a particle, a consciousness or do we just not know?

It appears that when a body returns to innate matter, there is no consciousness, awareness or life, at the level it once had. The innate matter is still conscious but only of what it can be at that level, with its potentiality to be again. As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything, a doorway for matter to manifest the I.
What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two....

We are trying to describe the same side of the coin with different faces. I understand what you write but interpret it differently. A individual human being never makes use of that potentiality of consciousness and awareness if it dies at birth, it must live the individual life. One thing that really bothers me, is if something of what we are survives this matrix, what i refer to specifically is not only soul but knowledge of the I.
Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I.... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I am aware of the way it appears to be. Measurement is an undetermined function in our matrix, due to the fact that measurement stick keeps getting smaller, the closer we try to measure. Time also plays the same tricks on us to measure. Reality not the matrix seems to indicate, the ultimate measurement might just not have a time or measurement to it.
I'm not sure what you mean by our matrix or measuring sticks or time playing tricks but ultimately our finite attempts to understand the basic nature of things might just be beyond mankind's reach.
 
  • #145
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Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

"Not known" but the more, the explicit orders of nature are investigated and understood, the more evidence, that there is, a implicit order that emcompasses all the explicit order in nature. I do not think design was a roll of the dice, it was intentional, although this is just only my opinion.

What makes one system more complex than another?

"Not known" but through observation and study and confirmation of evidence, it shows us that a entity which has a more complex DNA strand, demonstates, more complexity of consciousness and awareness at a higher level. The number of atoms or molecules grouped together? The number of particles that are really either or waves/particles? Thats all that is known. Sorry there is only poor answers.

Designer = consciousness = life ~ animation? Can life create a Designer? Can consciousnes create a Designer? Does a Designer require life (as we know it) or consciousness (as we know it) as a priori for animation or the Designer's own ominsience?

"Not known" You or i could answer yes or no to all of those questions. Notwithstanding these three words could be a very poor description of whatever there is "mas alla" "out there" Designer = consciousness = life and be the samething, in our terms, or quite the opposite in another way, we know nothing of. I do not think we can define this in human terms, only try.

What makes matter and particle consciousness evolve and from what do they evolve? You say that hidden variables not yet known have a complexity for particle/matter to be both conscious and animate or have these effects always been present in an infinity of timelessness? Why must we assume that the basic building block be a wave since our senses can only appreciate particles being present? Is the 'I' a wave, a particle, a consciousness or do we just not know?

"Not known" A purpose through its design, from a Will. The potentiallity of these effects would seem to have to be in an infinity of timelessness. What else do we have except the observation of the I. Physics decribes up til now, nature as, wave/particle or both. Notwithstanding Consciousness is not physical nor are emotions and may just be part of what "Mind" is. It is all and nothing, depends how you want to define this.

What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

I do not think that. There is great evidence to the contrary. OBE

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two....

It is a logical possiblity, that it is so. But what concerns me present, is why did Something in a timeless dimension use its consciousness and awareness to peer into what it is not. I can not know if you really understand what i am trying to say. I just know what i mean.

Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I.... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I really would like to know just what you intend to mean by this. I am not sure i understand you, can you explain further. If i understand you correctly, conception would mean that a life, lived or not would be fulfilled in this timeless continuum whether the entity lived evolved and died or not in our matrix reality.

I'm not sure what you mean by our matrix or measuring sticks or time playing tricks but ultimately our finite attempts to understand the basic nature of things might just be beyond mankind's reach.
By our matrix i mean only our reality not what might be the "REALITY" I mean that we can not measure the coast of England because evertime we try to measure the next curve on the beach in smaller terms, we will end up measuring waves, i do not mean water waves. I meant that the measurement of time, depends upon the observer only.

I wish i could answer you with better answers but so much is "not known to me"
 
  • #146
onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

"Not known" but the more, the explicit orders of nature are investigated and understood, the more evidence, that there is, a implicit order that emcompasses all the explicit order in nature. I do not think design was a roll of the dice, it was intentional, although this is just only my opinion.

In my opinion you are correct. For there to be a roll of the dice would imply that Someone had to roll them. The universe and its creations rely on each miniscule part relying on another factor without which nothing would occur as it is may be referred to as irreducible complexity. There is a - 0% statistical probability that the universe and everything in it could have come about by a roll of the dice whether by chaos or an unseen hand.

What makes one system more complex than another?

"Not known" but through observation and study and confirmation of evidence, it shows us that a entity which has a more complex DNA strand, demonstates, more complexity of consciousness and awareness at a higher level. The number of atoms or molecules grouped together? The number of particles that are really either or waves/particles? Thats all that is known. Sorry there is only poor answers.

Actually there is valid scientific evidence that every sub-atomic particle has wisdom or (intelligence) that you and I share. Even across the universe or across the room particles are aware of each other much like that described in a giant hologram. But like you say, the truth of everything is unknown and our beliefs probably have nothing to do with reality.

"Not known" You or i could answer yes or no to all of those questions. Notwithstanding these three words could be a very poor description of whatever there is "mas alla" "out there" Designer = consciousness = life and be the samething, in our terms, or quite the opposite in another way, we know nothing of. I do not think we can define this in human terms, only try.

What you are now saying is exactly what the Bible says about a Designer. He is unknownable, indescribable, without form or shape, cannot be seen by man, omniscient, timeless, not created and not a human being nor has human relatives. The question to answer is what existed before the Big Bang and what was a 'void'?

"Not known" A purpose through its design, from a Will. The potentiallity of these effects would seem to have to be in an infinity of timelessness. What else do we have except the observation of the I. Physics decribes up til now, nature as, wave/particle or both. Notwithstanding Consciousness is not physical nor are emotions and may just be part of what "Mind" is. It is all and nothing, depends how you want to define this.

Okay. Do we have an observation of the 'I' or do we assume that 'we' have an observation of the whole of humanity and life forms from a universal consciousness. Something like one part of a multiple level of freewill from which our minds perceive a solid universe of particles and protons (light) from darkness? These metaphysical questions have been posed by mankind for centuries.

What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

I do not think that. There is great evidence to the contrary. OBE

What evidence do we have? No one has come back from the great beyond to tell anyone about any continued flow of consciousness. We humans simply hope and want to believe that this life is not all there is but there is no valid evidence to the contrary.

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two....

It is a logical possiblity, that it is so. But what concerns me present, is why did Something in a timeless dimension use its consciousness and awareness to peer into what it is not. I can not know if you really understand what i am trying to say. I just know what i mean.

Your are asking the eons old question of WHY and HOW would a Designer do what He did for us in the creation of our universe and existense. The only answer I have been given is that He wants us, His creations to assist in the continued creation on this the seventh day. If you think about it, creation continues forward each micro-second to micro-second. Everything is being renewed and changes on our level and the universal level continue from instant to instant. Our role in all this is said to use our freewill to choose to create or destroy the Creators continous changes.

Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I.... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I really would like to know just what you intend to mean by this. I am not sure i understand you, can you explain further. If i understand you correctly, conception would mean that a life, lived or not would be fulfilled in this timeless continuum whether the entity lived evolved and died or not in our matrix reality.

What I think is that what we call life is nothing more than 'freewill' on a continuum in the same timelessness (singularity) that has existed forever. That for a short 'now' time, this freewill becomes what you refer to as the I and we are allowed to assume a solid reality with laws of physics, a body, a brain, a universe, flowers, clouds, water, etc. I do not understand your words matrix reality. I do believe that the Designer has created an encrypted code or blueprint of everything like humans now understand to be in the DNA molecule which is said to form one cell into a differentiation of cells that form our bodies. This is irreducible complexity but on a greater level, a similar code occurs in a string of letters numbering 308,504 letters long. But that is another story and this blueprint is now being studied by many scientists and cryptologists around the world. Now that we have very powerful computers, this code is slowly being revealed but only the surface of the code has been found to this point.
 
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  • #147
733
0
Design

Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

I do not understand your words matrix reality.

Matrix is a situation or surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained. Our matrix reality, our world as it appears to us, our universe. Our matrix our presumed physical world of which orginates the illusion, it evolves in containment of itself. Its just the way that i use to describe a seperation from the Outside peering into the inside. If the Outside is in a timeless continuum, there would be no need to evolve. Everything on the inside evolves or we assume that it does. It seems to have a direction. Mind spirit and body seems to have a direction. Not sure anyone, has ever defined this correctly, the only words to do it at hand, would be knowledge perfection complexity.

I do believe that the Designer has created an encrypted code or blueprint of everything like humans now understand to be in the DNA molecule which is said to form one cell into a differentiation of cells that form our bodies. This is irreducible complexity but on a greater level, a similar code occurs in a string of letters numbering 308,504 letters long. But that is another story and this blueprint is now being studied by many scientists and cryptologists around the world. Now that we have very powerful computers, this code is slowly being revealed but only the surface of the code has been found to this point.
If this code does exist in human DNA, it would mean that in other entities less evolved there would also be a code. It would and might also mean, that when the code reaches the micro level, that this spooky partcle movement may hold a clue to why particles weight, what they do, and act the way they do.. If a design code in humans was found, this would be to humans what the four laws of nature are to physics. That seem like a long way off. Do you have a link to this research?
 
  • #148
onycho


Originally posted by Rader

If this code does exist in human DNA, it would mean that in other entities less evolved there would also be a code. It would and might also mean, that when the code reaches the micro level, that this spooky partcle movement may hold a clue to why particles weight, what they do, and act the way they do.. If a design code in humans was found, this would be to humans what the four laws of nature are to physics. That seem like a long way off. Do you have a link to this research?
Actually this 'code of everything' does not exist in human DNA. The code exists in a combination of 26 individual letters much like the four DNA letters but forming 308,504 letters in a long string. The letters are thus placed in an infinite number of four dimensional formats so that no matter how many letters are in the width, height or depth the proximity of the letters form related clusters of significantly related historical and archeological known events. The crytography of this document is not only highly debated but many attempts have been made to debunk the methodology and mathematics have been pushlished. The fact that the code debunkers fudged the math as done with the original statistical formulas is highly enlightening.

The following site is very complex and unless you have a degree in statistical analysis, most of the material will be quite foreign to you. Included are responses to the refutations by many other scientists but the codes are very complex.

The site is very extensive:

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/ [Broken]
 
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