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Reason(s) why our perspective of science is wrong

  1. Jul 1, 2004 #1
    For all the knowledge which has been given to me, I have only to thank A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my Spiritual Master and Lord Krsna. Please read on...

    I was just reading an article from this site (http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2003/04/021.html) and it poses a very true argument. Scientists nowadays think that they are getting somewhere with the knowledge that we possess. But for the past 500+ years, science has been constantly changing. New theories are being born and old theories which were at once new, are being torn. Here are couple of "advances" in science that we must question:

    1) Theory of Evolution

    Scientists are saying that we have evolved from apes. Some might say, "Why are there still apes around? Why didn't they evolve?" Then some scientist will try to say something to refute the argument with his/her own "theory" and then comes another scientist to refute the previous argument, and this goes on without a conclusion. On the other hand, we have all experienced how we become mature when we "grow up". We are not evolving in terms of bodily features except that our body which was once small, grows in size in time. Rather, our consciousness evolves and we become aware of many new things. If you compare how your thinking was while you were young to how your thinking is at your present age, you will see that your consciousness changed, and its not that your body underwent transformations such as you growing a tail like that of an ape or you developing supernatural abilities such as jumping from branch to branch on a tree. Apes, when they are young, always hold on to their mothers until they are grown enough to climb the trees and such themselves(to my knowledge). So even for them, their consciousness evolves, which allows them to do a certain physical activity. But, we have not grown out of apes, rather, our consciousness changes, just like that of all living entities, and thus this enables us to become aware of many new things which we were not aware of while we were young. For example, while you were a baby, your parents most definitely talked to you out of affection. But, did you understand? No. But, as they kept talking and talking, your consciousness evolved and you started to understand what they were talking about, when your age was ripe. So the conclusion is, the consciousness evolves and not the body.

    2) Most Technology are NOT Science

    Science means to study the world and to understand who we are and what is our position in this world. It does NOT mean to create technologies so we can enjoy, or to create weapons to kill each other, or to brainwash people. All we see today is new technologies coming out only so that people can buy and enjoy them. But science means to study nature and ourselves, and not to exploit nature for our own meaningless purposes such as technologies and kill each other. Technology will never be perfect because we are not perfect, so how can we make something perfect or near perfection? A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of the Hare Krsna society, has always said that simple living and high thinking should be the goal of every human being. Who can argue with that? If technology can be used to spread true knowledge then that is probably the noblest act that technologies can be used for. What is the use of creating a technology so that one may play meaningless games, design military aircraft and such devastating weapons, spy on others? Rather, if scientists can stop developing technologies for the purpose of enjoyment, and start using them to spread TRUE knowledge as found in the Srimad Bhagavatam (Ancient text containing the meaningful purpose of this life), then this world will turn from a useless place to the most beautiful, meaningful place in this solar system.

    I will post more arguments later on but please do reflect on these and please post your reactions.
     
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  3. Jul 1, 2004 #2
    I've also sometimes found evolutionary theory to be lacking in some respects, it's too neatly unprovable given the time factors involved, and it seems to evade the bigger questions or not address them at all, logic dictates that something put us here and it wasn't a rock, what I can't understand is why would people choose to believe in evolutionary theory? I mean it is a dry and cold version of reality even if it's true and does nothing for me, shouldn't the truth set us free? Evolutionary knowledge leaves me with a bitter taste that I am insignificant and of no consequence to the universe, I don't think God would want people to believe that so why do people believe it, do they love suffering and feeling worthless?
     
  4. Jul 1, 2004 #3
    You must check with www.krishna.org for these answers. But we are in fact significant but the scientists cannot accept that, actually, its so hard for the average man to even accept that because we are thinking that "without me, everything will change" but in reality, the world will go on. We must stop being egotistical falsely and that is why spiritual life is important rather than technological life. In spiritual life, you have freedom from your own mind which dictates constantly and controls you, the conscious living being. In material life there are so many addictions that we are prone to such as woman, sex, especially this technology. So if we are to evolve, it's not physically, but spiritually. Spiritually means to evolve our consciousness. You should consult the sites www.krishna.tv where you can find books that will interest you. Please do not be offended by the word "Krishna" but just have an open, scientific mind. Because it is due to ignorance that scientists and modern science will never succeed.
     
  5. Jul 1, 2004 #4

    selfAdjoint

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    The characterization of evolution is just ignorant and wrong. If you don't know what it really is, you are not qualified to dismiss it. For some evolution as it really is, visit The Panda's Thumb
     
  6. Jul 1, 2004 #5

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    No they don't. We evolved from a common ancestors, some of which evolved into apes, and some into humans, and some into other things. We are not Apes 2.0 - Evolution is not a linear process.

    They did. That's why we have apes. Their random mutations, and selective effects were simply different.

    That's the nature of science - to be in flux. That is its critical advantage over spiritual masters and gods.

    Yes we are changing. The aging process is complex, and ongoing. And our consciousness is a bodily feature - we can trace new knowledge as changes in our brain synapses.

    It's questionable whether this is evolution, though. Evolution is about generational heredity, random variation, and selective pressures. Where is the generational heredity in the life of a single individual? The single body is too small a system to show evolution in the usual sense.

    No. You are describing Lysenkoism, which is an ugly, ugly thing. Heredity occurs when gamete cells pass on genetic characterists to the next generation. To be passed on, the mutation must occur within the gametes, or their producers. Hence, 'transformations' don't usually occur during the life of an individual, but in between lives. With newborns. And evolution tends to occur in small natural steps, not sudden 'supernatural abilities'.

    Most technology? Science is mostly about an attitude of skeptical wonder. Technology is the application of science. They are apples and oranges.

    Define simple living. The chances are Prabhupada would not have been born, would not have founded Hare Krisna if we lived the same simple lives we did hundreds of thousands of years ago.

    Easily said. Impossibly done.

    If only. Tell that to the researchers looking for a HIV cure.

    Because it works. And if we accept the truth, then we can work towards making our lives meaningful, instead of deluding ourselves. It's a challenge we need to acknowledge. Freedom hurts.
     
  7. Jul 1, 2004 #6
    Thanks for the replies...

    You have no practical evidence of this happening at the moment, if it ever did happen. But you have practical evidence of EVERY single living entity developing consciousness as it grows in age.

    Can you tell me the probability of this randomness?

    Then what is the point of doing research if it is constantly going to change? If someone is giving you the final truth, the Absolute Truth, why should we refuse to accept it? It is very obvious that scientists will never reach the absolute truth by speculating since grabbing the right answer out of infinite answers is just impossible. How can science ever have any advantage over God if the scientists themselves are imperfect whereareas God is the Absolute, the MOST perfect being.

    If consciousness is bodily then it must be made of matter. Is there scientific evidence for someone "seeing" consciousness? How can you "see" consciousness?

    Being skeptical, scientists will never arrive at the final truth. It must be accepted from authorized authorities. If you accept the modern science then it was created by skeptics, "since you say science is mostly about skeptical wonder". Skeptics can never be right because their so called "theories" change continously thus they will never arrive at the final truth.

    Simple living means renouncing the world of materialist enjoyment such as meat eating, intoxication (alcohol, smoking...etc), illicit sex (nightclubs, bars...), gambling (casinos...). Following the teachings of great sages who are AUTHORIZED. Swami Prabhupada is a bona fide master because how else could he have transformed the lives of so many people? You are thinking that the ancients were animals. But, if you stop believing the skeptics whom you believe, then you will understand that the ancients were far nobler, wise, religious, pious and possessed very many great qualities that the current civilization lacks. This truth can be found in the Mahabharata, which is the great history of the world from India. We did not evolve, but devolve in consciousness through the ages.

    Swami Prabhupada has said in the 70's that if the world continues on its current path then there will be a war. So it doesnt seem that impossible for the materialistic countries to destroy themselves. Then it'll be easy for the people to understand God, after the materialism has died.

    Swami Prabhupada says, "if you came from your mother's womb, and your mother came from her mother's womb, and your grandma came from her mother's womb....if you trace it back, life must have came from life. Thus, from God, all things, matter and nonmatter(spirit), emanated. If you tell me that by some random activity life came then that is the greatest delusion that we have all been subjected to. We must see the obvious fact.
     
  8. Jul 1, 2004 #7

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    Go to social science, and find the members called Franzneitiesche, Blackvision, and so on, and argue with them. There is much evidence that evolution is proceeding. There is no evidence that consciousness even exists as an unique phenomenon.

    Probability of it being different from the mutations which happened to humans? Almost one. You are missing the point: Evolution is not about attaining a goal. It is a process of organic growth, and diversification. No particular state at a particular time has any sort of special position. It's all moving.

    Because they can never prove it, and the balance of probability is that they are lying, or deluded, and will only give you a false sense of complacency. The value of change is that we are humble, that we know we are getting better even though we are not perfect.

    Science tends towards truth, because science is much more than guesswork.

    Prove it. And disprove the infinity of other possible gods while you're at it.

    No. If consciousness is bodily, then it would be a process. And we have seen it, found it in the flickering of neural activity which proceeds through the concious brain.

    And wonder. You forgot about wonder. The reason we do all this science is because we find the universe wonderful. It's great. We keep looking, and we like to see more. We know we are not ever completely right. But we also know that no one can be completely right. At we know that we are wrong, and can be less wrong, while those who think they are right will always stay just as wrong as ever.

    I don't believe the skeptics. I try not to believe at all. When science believes in itself, it becomes no long science but just pseudoscience, which is not that far removed from religion. To look back endlessly at ancients, at the dead and gone, whilst ignoring the infinite possibility ahead of us is a deeply incorrect idea.

    No. Thus Swami Prabhupada is wrong. Because we can climb a step on the ladder, we cannot say that the ladder is of infinite height. Just as he was wrong about the war. Just as he is wrong that by sitting back and waiting, materialism would somehow collapse and we will lead simple lives ad nauseum. The obvious fact is that we cannot see things as negatives, as devolutions from the great, old, good. We should not proceed by renouncations, but by progressions. Random things happen - and what we should do is become the selective pressures towards what we want to be.
     
  9. Jul 1, 2004 #8
    umm HELLO!? :uhh:

    this so-called vedic "master" seems to not even be aware that the cosmology expressed within the upanishads/vedas is fundamentally in agreement with modern science- concepts such as the Big Bang/ Multiverse/ Cycling universes/ symmetry of matter/anti-matter/ inflation/ relational physics/ quantum mechanics/ biological evolution/ psychology/ etc/etc/etc were all framed in the upanishads/vedas- modern physics and Hindu cosmology are so close that many prominent 20th century physicists such as David Bohm started hanging out with gurus!

    this Swami doesn't seem to realize that the very scientific ideas he is denouncing appear in the vedas/upanishads themselves!

    there are TENS OF MILLIONS of Indian scientists who will tell you the same- this guy is building strawmen for his Luddite ideology- nothing more-


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    Last edited: Jul 1, 2004
  10. Jul 1, 2004 #9
    here folks- read some ideas from a REAL swami- Swami Vivekananda-
    this is the real deal here- no agenda- no presumption- no strawmen- just DEEP AND HONEST THINKING about Being- and this was written OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO-

    http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0164.html

    notice the VAST difference in attitude/wisdom/honesty of this essay-

    "All human knowledge proceeds out of experience; we cannot know anything except by experience. All our reasoning is based upon generalised experience, all our knowledge is but harmonised experience. Looking around us, what do we find? A continuous change."

    check it yo... :biggrin:


    ___________________________

    /:set\AI transmedia laboratories

    http://setai-transmedia.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2004
  11. Jul 1, 2004 #10
    Yes, consciousness does not exist to those who are trying to find it by matter because non-matter is not visible to matter. Can you give me a practical evidence that evolution is proceeding in the human race?

    Then the whole definition of evolution according to the scientists is wrong. According to Cambridge Dictionary, evolution is : "a gradual process of change and development". And according to them, development means:"when someone or something grows or changes and becomes more advanced". Certainly, you are thinking that advancement means technology. But it is no advancement at all since the reasons for using technology by the majority of humans is for war, enjoyment and such useless activities. Therefore, we have not evolved because these desires are the most basic type of desires. If there is no goal then what is the point of evolving? That means that this universe is just a random event that occured for no apparent cause watsoever. Why does the Earth move around the Sun? Is it for no apparent reason? Why does the grass grow at a specific temperature? It cannot be for no apparent reason. Therefore, like everything has a cause, the ultimate cause is God or the living being who is Supreme. We can never understand him by this theories which we impose because He created the laws and thus if you can explain that then that must mean you can explain God which is never possible.


    It is the scientists who are lying because they are changing their so called theories from time after time just to suit their empirical observations. They fail to understand that reality is far more different than this empirical observations. If you are humble then you would stop posing these theories which are not perfect in any way watsoever, and accept that there is God and only consciousness evolves because its practical.


    If science is constantly changing that means that it will never be able to reach the truth because the truth is fixed. It will not change. The so called theory is temporary as its proven in the past so far. Theory changes because its not perfect, niether will it ever be because no one thinks the exact same way thus if every single person keeps introducing theories in how he sees the world then you will only get farther from the truth, which is forever fixed.

    The proof that God is the absolute being is simply found in the word God. God means the Supreme, Perfect, Glorious being. The term being is singular thus there is only one God. Also, authorized scriptures say that there is only one God so we accept it just like you scientists accept that humans evolved from "common ancestors". We know there is God because He is the creator of all moving and non-moving objects. One baby does not come from two mothers. Therefore, the spirit does not emanate from many gods, but one Supreme God. He is not matter, He is non-matter.


    Yes, consciousness is a process, but its a process which is suitable for further elevating the conscious being. What causes the flickering?

    If you know that you are not right, then why not accept the truth which people have been following from ancient time and experience the truth yourself? You say no one can be complete right, prove that. Those who are right, are right, because they don't think independently. They follow the knowledge given to them by their predecessors who have walked the same path, and were living examples, like Swami Prabhupada.


    You have to learn from the past. We have seen for practically 500+ years, science has not helped our consciousness evolve and help us stop birth, death, old age, and disease. This is the proof that we keep following the modern science which only causes suffering, because we didn't listen to the real scientist, God. Maybe its time we stop that take a new path. Its far safer to know which possibility that you will most likely to achieve, rather than having infinite possibilities of which you have no clue as to which one possibility will be true. If you follow the scriptures from the ancients, such as Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Bible, Srimad Bhagavatam, Koran, or whatever authentic, that says that there is God. Then that will lead you to a sure life of perfection.


    His mission was not to sit back but to enlighten the people of materialistic countries to know the truth. Destruction is not just physical but also mental. Look at the world right now. Decline of morality in the world is unbelievable. You have people who are killing each other without mercy, you have cannibals, you have rapists, you are never safe. What will you do? You have no control over anything because we are never in control. This is not random. There is no such thing as randomness since there is a cause to this universe. If random things happen, then that means they have no cause. And there must be cause for there to be an effect. Cause and effect. So what you are saying is that effect of the random things is nothing, but these random things do effect the world. So there is a cause for that effect. Srila Prabhupada is not wrong because His cause is the cause of God, which is to enlighten people on the knowledge of God.
     
  12. Jul 1, 2004 #11
    It appears that you haven't learned anything from your Swami Vivekananda in terms of respecting bona fide Gurus. Please keep to the subject matter and ask your question more clearly. If you want to have a honest argument then post a new thread and I will present my ideas to the best of my knowledge. Thank you.
     
  13. Jul 1, 2004 #12
    Also, please understand that I am not in any way equal to Swami Prabhupada. Therefore, I am not full in my knowledge of His entire teachings which were strictly bona fide. If I did/didn't say something that you find contradicting, please refer to www.krishna.org and read it fully.
     
  14. Jul 2, 2004 #13
    I agree with you very much on the point that real evolution is to be found in the development of the spirit not in technology or mere knowledge, it's possible that I merely accept Darwinism to be bona fide because that is all that I learned, I wasn't presented with multiple versions of how life came into being and given a choice, I mean had I been born in India I might have accepted things like karma and dismissed darwinism as a crackpot theory...isn't it strange how much things influence our thinking without ever being aware of the influence?
     
  15. Jul 2, 2004 #14
    Thank you jammieg,

    The whole materialistic society is about gaining power, fame, and sense enjoyment. To gain power, the so called leaders will go to great extent to distort the history of the world, to control the information outflow and such. If you control the information that the public receives, then you control the public. We are all so much controlled but we cannot realize that. It will seem all too false when you approach spiritual topics, but the fact is, spirituality is another dimension which is the true existence, or reality. But you have to take knowledge from an authorized source. Currently, Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON has been invaded by materialists who pose themselves as holy men. Thus you can see how much this materialistic society has influenced even those who were trying to go towards the spiritual dimension. But nevertheless, sites like www.krishna.org is still run by devout devotees who are sincerely following the true teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

    Certainly, this materialistic world will come to a dead stop soon. When it does, those who have faith in the politicians and leaders of this world will realize the mischief and dishonesty that has been done to them. But those who have at least some knowledge of spirituality will find shelter in it. This is the reason why God, or The Supreme Living being, or The Absolute Truth has sent us pure gurus such as Srila Prabhupada. It is said that if you are interested in finding the Absolute Truth, God will guide you to a person who will tell you about The Absolute, if you submissively listen. One day, after the end of materialism, people will understand the words of the saints and sages never prove false.
     
  16. Jul 2, 2004 #15

    selfAdjoint

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    Haribol, this thread is nothing but religious speculation. I am moving it to the religion forum.
     
  17. Jul 2, 2004 #16
    Pardon me, but what difference does it make whether or not a person believes in, or studies evolution?? regadrless of 'how', we are still here. if you want to explore the concept of evolution, great! have fun! if you don't? so be it!

    to blame whatever you see as 'wrong' with the world today, has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. it would be just as easy to blame the grand master for our problems because he did a poor job of presenting his message.

    the ills of the world exist. period. now, if you want to address them, what good is pointing blame at either science, technology or religion??? they each contributed to our present world.

    i would rather see someone address an issue and suggest a practical way of improving our world. playing games, be they computer or sports, adds to the development of the self. the games, themselves, are neither good nor bad.

    Better parenting may be the biggest issue that is not dealt with at all, in school or church - temple, etc. Whether a parent is disinterested or overzealous can have the same detremental effect.

    believing or not believing in a master does not make for a better society. i also doubt that any master ever blames an outside agency for a person's mistakes. in reality, most wars, while economic, have been waged from a moral - religious imperative.

    do what most masters have taught, Preach Peace. if you condone violence, in any form, you are not listening to your master.

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  18. Jul 2, 2004 #17
    The difference is one group is being cheated of the truth and the other group isn't

    It does. It goes like this. If you know your own true identity, there wouldn't be any need for the misery in this world because you will know who you are. And when you know that, you will know how you should behave and act.

    Can you not see the misuse of technology in the world? Can you not see the scientists making nuclear bombs only to destroy themselves and others? This is not a blame but a fact. Religion is the duty of mankind. So we shall all try to follow it. Although there are different religions in the world, they speak of the universal duty of mankind to act in accordance with nature and God. God is one, but he manifests in multitude of forms. As long as we don't make our own religion, all will be well.

    Playing games and sports do in fact add to how we think in a very negative and useless way. What is the worth of playing games? Its all for sense enjoyment which is temporary and does not last.

    How do you make better parents? Through religion, or duty of mankind. What is the cause of parents being disinterested? Most of the time, if not all, they have sex for the pleasure and are not ready to take care of the child. So thus this is sense enjoyment. How do you stop this? Follow the teachings of God.

    A spiritual master has seen the truth. Its not a matter of believing or not, but its a matter of duty to follow a saintly person who is bona fide. The whole point of human life is to march towards perfection of our lives through spirituality. By the way, the yoga that people do these days is not spiritual but material since they are looking for better body shape, health etc...

    Its practical to see that politicans are cheating us. The master doesn't have to point it out. What do you profit by watching t.v? Or playing games?

    If you also examine each of those countries who have waged wars, were they themselves morally righteous? In modern era, many leaders wage wars blaming it on religious and moral principles but in reality, if the leader of a nation is moral then his people will be spiritually inclined and religious. So its not worth to count the modern day leaders who wages wars for selfish interests but cloaking their true motives with their so called moral and religious principles.

    What we are doing is preaching peace. Peace does not come without effort of each individual. If we are sitting at our couch watching t.v, or playing sports, or playing games, or using violence, you will not achieve peace. Peace comes from surrender to God and his bona fide representatives. Peace comes from sacrifice of our selfish sense enjoyments. Then comes peace. Not before that.

    Please ask if I did not clarify anything.
     
  19. Jul 2, 2004 #18
    1 - I know who i am, which is why I don't care about evolution or creation. i know how to behave and act, not from some master or book. Our innate natural conscience and experience is all that I have ever needed. All masters say look within; I have and found my answers.

    2- Yes, i do see misuse, but that doesn't mean that technology is inherently bad. I do not see how any of the traditional religions are going to correct this problem (they have done a terrible job so far). Rather I see, individual religions (a personal commitment to self and a personal god) is a salvation. this misuse you speak of, is being done by very religious people at this time; christians, jews, muslims, etc.

    3 - What is so wrong with sense enjoyment?????????? if it wasn't for sense enjoyment you wouldn't be here. Denying your true nature is dangerous to you emotional - psychological well being. Be happy, enjoy your life and body - the creator made them out of love!

    4 - Nah! religions has failed miserably at training parents! With all the education and therapies out there, we never have a course in parenting. Sadly, we perpetuate the way our parents raised us, the good and the bad. Unfortunately, whether is is a very religious family or not, the flaws are accepted as being the correct way. If god didn't want us to enjoy sex why have it? Whether or not you enjoy sex will not improve your parenthood.

    5 - Not to be disrespectful, but i guess by your definition, i am a master. I have seen the truth! My truth. Any master worth his salt wants you to find your spirituality, not his. It is a matter of opinion about perfection. Within an infinite universe perfect will not exist. We are always in the process of becomming. Who cares how someone does or doesn't do yoga, as long as they are good people! do you not see the limitations you put on yourself?? it's like the christians saying that you can't gain heaven without accepting christ.
    These ideas are limiting and should be rejected by any intelligent person.

    6 - here i agree with you. I will say that i am very peaceful when i watch sports on TV or a good show like Joan of Arcadia!

    Even god, the lazy lout, rested on the seventh day. Disliking or hating our world leaders will not change their activities. Sacrifice and denying my true nature won't change them. To me, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    What we must do is learn how to use this technology to improve each individual's ability to think for themself! following any teacher, master, without skepticism or questions is foolhearty and doomed to fail.

    as my personal master, i tell myself to be loving and to seek harmony with the world, which also includes my fellow man. Finger pointing and blame will not get the job done.

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  20. Jul 2, 2004 #19
    Are you body or spirit?
     
  21. Jul 2, 2004 #20
    Yet it is easy to see how wars were often fought in the name of religious zeal, but difficult to see how and when they weren't fought because of religious zeal, what I mean is that for all the faults of evolutionists and materialists and religious zealots there is good in each of them, it would seem foolish not to try to grasp what good understandings there are in each of them as imperfect as they all are.
     
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