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News Religious valedictorian sues Nevada school

  1. Jul 15, 2006 #1

    loseyourname

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_us/religious_valedictorian" [Broken]

    The school did this because of a 9th district court of appeals ruling that proselytizing in public school speeches is forbidden and is to be censored. What does the forum think? Reeks of overbearing authority to me, but it's not like she was cut off while speaking out in the street. The school gave her the stage and the mic and the audience and she really doesn't have any right to say beyond what they let her say.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 15, 2006 #2
    It depends on what context she said it. If she said "I want to thank jesus, Jesus gives me strength" that's fine. If she was preaching about how we should all love Jesus and worship him, exit stage left!
     
  4. Jul 15, 2006 #3

    Pengwuino

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    Oh nevermind, after reading the full article....

    Since it's a public school, it's pretty much their job to make sure a school doesn't appear to be endorsing any religion.

    Do we ever actually bother to read anything cyrus...
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  5. Jul 15, 2006 #4
    "invitations for others to join the faith"

    Wow! That's messed up.
     
  6. Jul 15, 2006 #5

    selfAdjoint

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    Students in schools do not have the freedom of speech that citizens in public do. Neither do soldiers in the army or employees at work. In all these cases there is legal authority to squelch, censor, bleep and delete speech that is incompatible with the authority's purposes. And this is all part of US law and conformable (say the courts) to our constitutional liberties.

    The Cardinal of Chicago can't go with a bull horn and hector women going into an abortion clinic either. He calls it counseling and considers the ban a restriction on his freedom of speech.
     
  7. Jul 15, 2006 #6

    Astronuc

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    I think this comment posted by Pengwuino pretty much defeats her arguement. She was warned, and this is not an issue of free speech. She was granted a privilege to speak to an audience - she did not invite the audience to hear her speech. Students' speeches are generally reviewed (consored in some cases) for content and quality.

    If McComb had been speaking at her church, or at a function in which people were invited to hear her speak on the subject of her choice, then that would be an entirely different matter.
     
  8. Jul 15, 2006 #7

    Pengwuino

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    And bottom line, the school can't show a favoritism towards any religion. Bottom line, not up for debate or interpretation.
     
  9. Jul 15, 2006 #8
    I don't think she has much in the way of legal grounds. It was not her venue, nor was it an open venue. The school I feel was well within their rights to not allow her to use a commencement ceremony to solicit her religion.
    This is a really graphic, forget the context, all this talk of blood and pain. :yuck:

    I don't like the image that comes to mind when I think of blood covering my um....er.....shortcomings? :confused:

    Personally I am open to all religious teaching. However I would be offended if I had gone to see my child's commencement ceremony and were subjected to some sort of gospel revival instead. Not that there is anything wrong with a gospel revival, just that I would feel as if I were being tricked. A little like bait and switch.

    Even if I were going to hear a christian sermon I would prefer something that were not so full of ambiguious and emotionally charged words, phrases, and mental images.

    I find concept of "sacrifice" to be antithetical to most other concepts and values perpetuated by religious mores.
     
  10. Jul 15, 2006 #9
    I find it rather intolerant to ban someone from speaking because they express their religious beliefs. Those same people who want to ban this are usually the first to push things like tolerance classes for homosexuality.

    They want to stop children from singing Christmas songs at school but at the same time they want to rewrite textbooks to show homosexual couples as a normal relationship.

    It often seems that people's ideas of tolerance are very much one sided.
    They want others to be tolerant about the things they believe in while at the same time they show intolerance for things they disagree with.

    :smile:
     
  11. Jul 15, 2006 #10

    Pengwuino

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    I hate the word "tolerance". It's just a BS word that basically means "everyone must believe what i believe". I don't see why they don't just call it that.

    But you do have to admit... if they did allow it, it was close enough to a school endorsing a religion for it to be unconstitutional.
     
  12. Jul 15, 2006 #11
    Well I do not see someone speaking about "Christ this" or "God that" in a speech on a school as the school is endorsing a religion.

    What kind of a message do we give the children when someone starts to talk about "God ......" and the plug from the mic is pulled? Do you think we teach them tolerance? Do we perhaps teach them tolerance when we force them to attend a gay tolerance class instead?

    Again, people's ideas on tolerance are often very one-sided.
     
  13. Jul 15, 2006 #12

    Gokul43201

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    Yeah, religion ought to be rated R! :biggrin:
     
  14. Jul 15, 2006 #13

    Pengwuino

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    Well, ya know, rulings like that are meant to target the studipest type of human that can go "oh wow, the school's valedictorian is talking about christianity and asking me to join and im too weak minded to resist!" so you need to really just cover as many bases as you can by banning things like this.
     
  15. Jul 15, 2006 #14

    Gokul43201

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    Heck, do we teach them tolerance when we force them to answer in an exam that the earth is billions of years old, when their preacher tells them that it is a few thousand, and that misrepresenting the true word of god is a sin?
     
  16. Jul 15, 2006 #15

    Hurkyl

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    It doesn't sound like that's why she was banned. It sounds like she was banned from speaking because she was expressing her religous beliefs in an official, school-endorsed context.
     
  17. Jul 15, 2006 #16

    Gokul43201

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    The weak minded and the people that insist that someone's blood is their ticket to heaven...but I repeat myself.
     
  18. Jul 15, 2006 #17

    Pengwuino

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    See, thats why i hate the word "tolerance". Total crap. Tolerance is being open to all ideas. Being practical means having to pick one idea and teach it less you want Tom Cruise coming into your classroom explaining the facts of psychology. Schools are practical, not tolerant.
     
  19. Jul 15, 2006 #18

    Pengwuino

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    How intolerant of you :biggrin:
     
  20. Jul 15, 2006 #19

    Gokul43201

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    Yeah, I missed out on those tolerance classes. To me tolerance is about how carefully I need to machine a part.
     
  21. Jul 15, 2006 #20

    Pengwuino

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    Well you offended me within 0.005mm. Jerk. Use digital.

    haha use digital.. oh man that reminds me back in one of my physics labs... we were talking about uncertainties and we were asked "how could we get more accurate measurements" and we go "use a digital device" and when the professor asked "how does digital guarantee more accurate readings" and we just stared at eachother.

    Good times...

    But anyhow back to the subject... this lawsuit is as stupid as those idiots who demand war memorials be removed of anything resembling a cross.
     
  22. Jul 15, 2006 #21
    No one is banning her from expressing her religious beliefs or infringing on her rights. She has no right to use the schools venue to market her religion.

    Intolerance can lead to violence. If intolerance exists, then what is wrong with teaching tolerance and peace?

    Better than tolerance, tolerating others who are different, would be acceptance, accepting others as they are.

    I don't believe there is any re-writing going on, just recognition of the fact that many historical figures were homosexuals.

    There are many faiths that do not celebrate Christmas. I don't have a problem with not forcing kids to sing in school.

    I mean isn't choir an elective? If a kid wants to sing let her sing, let him or her make a choice. Don't force them to sing with the other kids in a classroom, especially if the songs are of a religious nature.

    Homosexuality exists in many species including humans.

    Why would you consider a naturally occurring phenomenon to be abnormal?

    As I said before, tolerance is tolerating what you don't agree with. I may not agree with your view of homosexuality, but I am tolerant of you expressing them on an open forum. And I am accepting of you, since, because we share the same universe, we must belong here. :smile:

    I think perhaps you have have not read, or misread the article. It wasn't that she was not allowed to express her beliefs, but rather that she could not co-opt a school event for that purpose.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2006
  23. Jul 15, 2006 #22

    Pengwuino

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    I believe the whole idea of "tolerance" being in the same thought pattern as banning someone from speaking their mind about religion is kind of absurd. The courts have ruled that you can't speak your mind about religion at a government sponsored event. Fair enough. Don't say its "tolerance" that allows someone to be banned from speaking their mind however.

    Theres a perfect example. Its intolerance that says she doesn't have the right to speak her mind but its a necessary evil at times to keep things from getting out of control. I'm perfectly ok saying people shouldn't have the right to preach at a school... but don't call it tolerance.
     
  24. Jul 15, 2006 #23
    Well I see that differently. :smile:

    Tolerance cannot be taught.
    One is either tolerant towards something or one is not, it is called freedom of tought.
    Do you have tolerance for that?

    Perhaps in a few decades we have the ability to implant a little device in each person's brain giving a small electrical pain shock each time someone thinks something that is not politically correct. I suppose that some might see this as an effectively way to "teach" people to see the benefits of the "ideal, tolerant, green pasture worlds".


    I do not see a problem with accepting people as they are. :smile:
    I rather see that as having common sense!
    But to force people to think like that is not particularly tolerant.

    Neither do I.
    But to stop children from singing a Christmas song in school is intolerant in my opinion.

    Who is talking about forcing children to sing Christmas songs? :confused:

    Sure why not, for instance mental illness is also a naturally occuring phenomenon right? Or is it now also politically incorrect to call being mentally ill abnormal?

    Well I have not expressed my views on homosexuality and neither have I expressed my views on religion.
    But in case you want to know. I am an atheist and frankly I do not care what kind of relationships people decide to have.

    Don't worry I understand the matter.

    To insist that her speech would be some sort of proof that the school was endorsing Christianity is simply absurd. What we have here is simply a person who has strong beliefs and likes to express them, it has nothing to do with the school endorsing a religion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  25. Jul 15, 2006 #24

    Hurkyl

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    When it is "deviating from the normal or average".

    (ref: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/abnormal )
     
  26. Jul 15, 2006 #25

    Pengwuino

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    Alright, im getting out of this thread before it starts becoming too P&WA for me.
     
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