# Repeal Healthcare?

• News
So if the Republican party regain control of the house and senate, are they able to reverse the bill?

## Answers and Replies

DavidSnider
Gold Member

Theoretically, yes.

But rolling back the entitlements that were passed in this bill would be political suicide.

It's funny how people attack those trying to help them.

russ_watters
Mentor

What do you mean by that? Who would attack who?

Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member

Obama would never sign a repeal of the bill, so Congress would need the votes to override a veto. That requires a supermajority in both the House and the Senate - not possible. Beyond that, the Republicans would have to sell the idea of cancelling health coverage for sick children.

lisab
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

I know I linked to this in another thread, but it fit here too. http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo".

Last edited by a moderator:
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
The Republicans will now huff, and puff, and blow smoke from their ears in order to pacify their base, but it is all show.

Lisab, I thought that blog from Frum was right on. This turned out to be the Republican's Waterloo, not Obama's.

Last edited:
It's immoral because you do not have the right to medical care.

Sure. I only wish once this settled down and bankruptcy turns out not to happen, all those voices will find something more useful to do with their life than noise. Albert Camus once said
Those who lack the courage will always find a philosophy to justify it.

It could be repealed I think, or parts overturned by the SCOTUS maybe. All we heard was how it would "never" be passed, how it would be political suicide for the Democrats to pass it, well they passed it. To say it can't be repealed, I'm not buying. To say it will be difficult to repeal, I agree.

But if there is one thing Obama has shown a few times, it is that conventional wisdom does not always apply.

The only way that this will ever be repealed is if it fails in action. Unfortunately the more likely action, should the government bankrupt itself, would be to raise taxes to compensate for the extra expense. I'm pretty sure we should just get used to the idea of having national health care.

It can and will be repealed if enough people turn against it. See Prohibition.

What do you mean by that? Who would attack who?

The Repbulicans attacking Democrats!

Their so afraid of government, it's pretty sad.

Evo
Mentor
The truth is, we need medical coverage for those that don't get it through their employer or can't afford it. In the situation we are in with high unemployment, the number of Americans suddenly left without insurance has skyrocketed. This isn't acceptable in a successful western society.

Is the proposed solution perfect? No. Do changes need to be made for it to become a reality? Yes. Do we need it? Absolutely.

The truth is, we need medical coverage for those that don't get it through their employer or can't afford it. In the situation we are in with high unemployment, the number of Americans suddenly left without insurance has skyrocketed. This isn't acceptable in a successful western society.

Is the proposed solution perfect? No. Do changes need to be made for it to become a reality? Yes. Do we need it? Absolutely.

The proposed solution risks bankrupting the nation is the problem however.

Gokul43201
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
The proposed solution risks bankrupting the nation is the problem however.
Do you have a reference for an estimate of the risk? The CBO has released estimates projecting decreases in the deficit over the next 10 years.

See cost estimates: http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfmhttp://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm [Broken]

Last edited by a moderator:
calculusrocks
It's immoral because you do not have the right to medical care.

That's right.

Sure. I only wish once this settled down and bankruptcy turns out not to happen, all those voices will find something more useful to do with their life than noise. Albert Camus once said Those who lack the courage will always find a philosophy to justify it.

I'm convinced the philosophy you must be referring to is the philosophy of liberalism. What we've done over the last century is spend, spend, spend and take more and more liberties away. Now where are we?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVDEHvI9WH_Q [Broken]

It takes courage to admit you have a problem, an addiction. Politicians are addicted to showing their generosity by spending other people's money and its running this nation straight into the ground.

Last edited by a moderator:
Do you have a reference for an estimate of the risk? The CBO has released estimates projecting decreases in the deficit over the next 10 years.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11378&type=1http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11378&type=1 [Broken]

The CBO is wrong. They have to use various assumptions in making their calculations. You could also look at the history of most all the government health entitlements. They never come out costing what they are projected to. The bill supposedly pays for itself by cutting Medicare, but it is also supposed to expand Medicare. Now anyone knows you can't expand Medicare with the same bill that is funded with cuts to Medicare.

When asked about this, President Obama couldn't answer and waffled on the issue completely. The Democrats know the bill will cost an astronomical amount, they will announce the need for new taxes to pay for it.

Last edited by a moderator:
turbo
Gold Member
The truth is, we need medical coverage for those that don't get it through their employer or can't afford it. In the situation we are in with high unemployment, the number of Americans suddenly left without insurance has skyrocketed. This isn't acceptable in a successful western society.

Is the proposed solution perfect? No. Do changes need to be made for it to become a reality? Yes. Do we need it? Absolutely.
Can't agree more. My state is rural/forested with primarily seasonal and part-time jobs that don't offer any health-insurance, and income levels that don't allow workers to afford them. Without some fundamental reforms, more people would be left behind, denied preventative health care and denied treatment until their conditions got serious enough to to require ER visits, which we ALL pay for.

The bill supposedly pays for itself by cutting Medicare, but it is also supposed to expand Medicare. Now anyone knows you can't expand Medicare with the same bill that is funded with cuts to Medicare.

You're confusing Medicare and Medicaid. They're different programs.

You're confusing Medicare and Medicaid. They're different programs.

Nope, I am aware they are different. The bill claims it will cut Medicare spending to pay for health reform and expand Medicare's future solvency. If you solely cut back $500 billion in Medicare expenditures that could make it more solvent, but if you then go and spend that same$500 billion for health reform, you cannot claim you made Medicare more solvent.

It isn't fearmongering. Fearmongering is when you make over-exaggerated claims of what the bad results will be if people do or do not do something.

Claiming that this bill will blow a hole in the deficit and debt isn't fearmongering, as the numbers don't add up and history is also a good indication.

Claiming that it gives government a lot more control over our lives is not fearmongering. In addition to the health insurance companies now being controlled by the government, you now literally will have the IRS being involved in a lot more of your life, and also this now gives the government the ability to justify regulations and taxes on all sorts of new things because "These things increase healthcare costs."

When "the government is paying for your healthcare," this happens. In New York State, they are trying to pass legislation to severely curb the amount of salt used in restaurant food. SALT! Something humans have been consuming for thousands of years.

The reasoning is that it will help curb healthcare costs.

I could imagine a tax on fast-food, a tax on soda, a tax on any kind of junk food, etc...regulations on this and that that we haven't thought of yet.

I predict popular support for this bill will swing substantially in favor of it.

Of course it will. And then when the nation is met with the staggering reality of just how much it costs, and thus has a crazy level of debt and deficit, and has to raise taxes, and then eventually start cutting benefits because there just isn't enough money, people will be screaming.

Last edited:
Char. Limit
Gold Member
I could imagine a tax on fast-food, a tax on soda, a tax on any kind of junk food, etc...regulations on this and that that we haven't thought of yet.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with taxing soda and junk food. If you can come up with a good argument on why we shouldn't tax those things... well, I want to see it.

Of course it will. And then when the nation is met with the staggering reality of just how much it costs, and thus has a crazy level of debt and deficit, and has to raise taxes, and then eventually start cutting benefits because there just isn't enough money, people will be screaming.

Too late, people (AKA conservatives) were doing that a year ago.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with taxing soda and junk food. If you can come up with a good argument on why we shouldn't tax those things... well, I want to see it.

So then you are okay with the government just being able to come and try to dictate and control your lifestyle?? Why not just ban them altogether then?

Gokul43201
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
So then you are okay with the government just being able to come and try to dictate and control your lifestyle?? Why not just ban them altogether then?
The government already had heavy subsidies on things that go into junk foods. How is that any less controlling of your lifestyle?

Vanadium 50
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
2021 Award
The question seems rather fuzzy.

Can the law technically be repealed? Of course - it takes a majority of both houses and the President's signature, or a supermajority of the President vetoes it.

Can the law be politically repealed? That's a question for fortunetellers, but it depends on how angry the populace stays in November, and/or November 2012. It's probably true that what looked like clever idea to make the bill appear to reduce the deficit - have ten years of revenues plus Medicare cuts cover six years of expenditures - doesn't look quite so good in this light, as the first four years have tax increases and Medicare cuts, but many of the benefits don't kick in until later.

Can the law be overturned some other way? There are two - one is that the law needs to survive a court challenge. I think it will, after Wickard v. Fillburn, but one can never tell. The other is that Congress can always refuse to fund it.

The most likely scenario for "repeal" in my view is that this law will be replaced with something smaller. That's something that requires less of a supermajority.

Char. Limit
Gold Member
So then you are okay with the government just being able to come and try to dictate and control your lifestyle?? Why not just ban them altogether then?

Well, considering that where I live, candy isn't even taxed, I'd be willing to put candy on the sales tax...

The government already had heavy subsidies on things that go into junk foods. How is that any less controlling of your lifestyle?

Well you have a point there, but I was talking from a basic assumption in which they aren't subsidized.

Well, considering that where I live, candy isn't even taxed, I'd be willing to put candy on the sales tax...

Just because something isn't taxed doesn't mean you should then tax it IMO.

BobG
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
The question seems rather fuzzy.

Can the law technically be repealed? Of course - it takes a majority of both houses and the President's signature, or a supermajority of the President vetoes it.

Can the law be politically repealed? That's a question for fortunetellers, but it depends on how angry the populace stays in November, and/or November 2012. It's probably true that what looked like clever idea to make the bill appear to reduce the deficit - have ten years of revenues plus Medicare cuts cover six years of expenditures - doesn't look quite so good in this light, as the first four years have tax increases and Medicare cuts, but many of the benefits don't kick in until later.

Can the law be overturned some other way? There are two - one is that the law needs to survive a court challenge. I think it will, after Wickard v. Fillburn, but one can never tell. The other is that Congress can always refuse to fund it.

The most likely scenario for "repeal" in my view is that this law will be replaced with something smaller. That's something that requires less of a supermajority.

The populace isn't particularly angry at Obama or Democrats now, so the anger would have to increase in order to give Republicans a majority in Congress, let alone a big enough majority to override vetoes.

Code:
"Overall, how would you rate the job each of the following has done in the
efforts to address problems in the health care system over the past year, leading
up to yesterday's vote in the House -- as excellent, good, only fair or poor?

Excellent   Good   Only Fair   Poor   Unsure
%           %         %         %         %
"President Obama"
3/22/10                   18            28       20         31         3

"Democrats"
3/22/10                     7             25       30        33          5

"Republicans"
3/22/10                    5             21       34        34          5

This, in spite of the fact that many feel that health care reform will be bad for them, personally, and in spite of the fact that many feel the reform will increase budget deficits.

Code:
"From what you know of that legislation, do you think the amount you pay for
medical care would increase, decrease, or remain the same if it becomes law?"

Increase       Decrease     Remain the Same      Unsure
3/19-21/10      62              16                   21             1

"From what you know of that legislation, do you think you and your family would,
in general, be better off, worse off or about the same if it becomes law?"

Better Off      Worse Off     About the Same
3/19-21/10        19               47                   33

"From what you know of that legislation, do you think you and your family would, in
general, be better off, worse off or about the same if it becomes law?" If worse
off or about the same: "Do you think other families in this country would be
better off if that legislation becomes law, or do you think that legislation
would not help anyone in the country?"

Better Off  Other Families Better Off  Would Not Help Anyone    Unsure
19                42                         37               2

"From what you know of that legislation, do you think the federal budget deficit
will go up, go down, or stay the same if it becomes law?"

Go Up       Go Down     Stay the Same       Unsure
3/19-21/10         70             12                 17             1

Obviously, feelings about the chances of health care reform working should create a situation where opinion could swing towards Republicans, but, for now, the fight seems to have cost Republicans more than help them.

http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm

Claiming that this bill will blow a hole in the deficit and debt isn't fearmongering, as the numbers don't add up and history is also a good indication.

I suggest you look up the CBO report on the legislation that was passed, and they will put out another report on the amendments once they make their way through the Senate.

lisab
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
The CBO is wrong. They have to use various assumptions in making their calculations. You could also look at the history of most all the government health entitlements. They never come out costing what they are projected to. The bill supposedly pays for itself by cutting Medicare, but it is also supposed to expand Medicare. Now anyone knows you can't expand Medicare with the same bill that is funded with cuts to Medicare.

When asked about this, President Obama couldn't answer and waffled on the issue completely. The Democrats know the bill will cost an astronomical amount, they will announce the need for new taxes to pay for it.

Do you have any links to support your claim that the CBO is wrong?

adrenaline
Science Advisor
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/march/politicians-didn’t-get-it-right

as pro single payer I hate this health reform bill, as a business owner I hate it more.

Right now I pay close to half a million a year in health insurance premiums for my 45 employees. This bill does nothing to prevent my carrier from raising premiums 178% like it has over the ten years I have been partner. So, since health insurance premiums are my second highest overhead, what is to prevent me from dumping my employees on the public exchange where they will get suboptimal coverage, higher copays and deductibles? The paltry 700 dollar fine per employee only applies to companies above 100 but even if I had to pay that, I would still reduce my overhead by dumping my employees onto the exchange. Small to medium size businesses will be dropping their excellent group coverage and letting their employees fend for themselves in the exchange.

Employers are now allowed to have "health screenings" and if the employee fails them ( say for diabetes) the employer will now be able to charge that employee a higher share of their employer sponsered premiums.

It did nothing for the fact that as an employer with majority female employees under 55 my premiums are 48% higher than a similar business size whose work force is predominantly male ( and if you don't think this affects hiring decisions in the work place you are way too innocent.)

Luckily, I am senior partner and believe in ethical business practices but if you don't think my Republican partners who look at the bottom dollar isn't trying to capitilize on this ( after all, half a million divided up as profit sharing among four partners....) isn't riding my a about this already.....

Now for individual policy owners this was a good reform for them.

Last edited:
Char. Limit
Gold Member
Well you have a point there, but I was talking from a basic assumption in which they aren't subsidized.

Just because something isn't taxed doesn't mean you should then tax it IMO.

I think that we should get a sales tax exemption to groceries. Groceries that mean things you need, REAL food. Candy doesn't fit that list. Soda does.

Perhaps the government could create universal eateries. No more people going hungry. It would improve health overall and create an equality of food quality for everyone. We would only be allowed healthy food at these eateries and we would only be allowed our rations every day. What we eat could be determined by experienced and trained professionals employed by the government at no direct cost to us. We would still have other places to eat, but these places would be taxed as "Cadillac eateries". In the end this would result in lower health care costs, and also reduce if not eliminate the number of people who don't have enough to eat. No more obesity for the United States. (In fact taxes would be higher for the obese as their increased wait is a greater burden on everyone else.) We could lead the charge against hunger as a nation.