Revolution of earth around sun

In summary, the conversation revolves around the argument of whether the Earth revolves around the sun or vice versa. The possibility of a point in geosynchronous orbit where the Earth may appear to revolve around it and the sun around the Earth is mentioned. The concept of a fixed frame of reference and the concept of rotating frames of reference are also discussed. Ultimately, it is unclear if there is a specific fixed frame of reference where the sun would appear to revolve around the Earth.
  • #1
wvguy8258
50
0
I got into an argument with someone over Earth revolving around the sun vs sun revolving around the earth. He stated that there are reference points within the universe where the sun appears to revolve around the Earth that are NOT on the surface of the earth. I conceded that perhaps a point in geosynchronous orbit would appear to have the Earth revolving around it and the sun revolving around the earth. I then stated that you would be accelerating though in this orbit. He stated that there are 'fixed' points where you would not be accelerating and that the sun would be seen revolving around the earth. Is he correct?
 
Astronomy news on Phys.org
  • #2
Not entirely sure what you mean.
You could claim that the Sun orbits around the Earth but you would still have the other planets revolving around the sun.
You would also have to explain the apparent motion of everything else in the universe.
 
  • #3
Your friend has a point in that neither "goes around" the other, exclusively.
Any two objects can be considered as being on orbit about their combined centre of mass. In the case of the Earth and Sun, the cm of the pair is as near dammit to the centre of the Sun. In the case of the Earth and Moon (more similar in size), the cm is at a point below the Earth's surface but a significant distance from its centre - hence the wobble, which causes the tides to have two bulges - one towards the Moon and the other one away from it.
 
  • #4
mgb_phys said:
Not entirely sure what you mean.
You could claim that the Sun orbits around the Earth but you would still have the other planets revolving around the sun.
You would also have to explain the apparent motion of everything else in the universe.

One step at a time: can you specify a "fixed" frame of reference that is not on the Earth wherein the sun appears to revolve around the Earth?

The question, of course, is: fixed with reference to what? If you fix your FoR to Earth then sure, but I think the OP is referfing to fixed wrt some external FoR. This would need to be specified.
 
  • #5
mgb_phys said:
Not entirely sure what you mean.
You could claim that the Sun orbits around the Earth but you would still have the other planets revolving around the sun.
You would also have to explain the apparent motion of everything else in the universe.

I know. He doesn't want to hear this though. He wants to believe that the heliocentric model is just our bias. I know that einstein said all reference frames are equally valid. I think he is trying to capitalize on this.
 
  • #7
sophiecentaur said:
In the case of the Earth and Sun, the cm of the pair is as near dammit to the centre of the Sun.
Well, you sure are passionate about your celestial mechanics, aren't you? :wink:
 
  • #8
sophiecentaur said:
Your friend has a point in that neither "goes around" the other, exclusively.
Any two objects can be considered as being on orbit about their combined centre of mass. In the case of the Earth and Sun, the cm of the pair is as near dammit to the centre of the Sun. In the case of the Earth and Moon (more similar in size), the cm is at a point below the Earth's surface but a significant distance from its centre - hence the wobble, which causes the tides to have two bulges - one towards the Moon and the other one away from it.

He didn't know this, I pointed it out. He is talking about full on the sun moving around the Earth in 24 hours, not moving around a common point.
 
  • #9
wvguy8258 said:
He doesn't want to hear this though. He wants to believe that the heliocentric model is just our bias

In that case it's pretty obvious that the universe revolves around my wife
 
  • #10
DaveC426913 said:
One step at a time: can you specify a "fixed" frame of reference that is not on the Earth wherein the sun appears to revolve around the Earth?

The question, of course, is: fixed with reference to what? If you fix your FoR to Earth then sure, but I think the OP is referfing to fixed wrt some external FoR. This would need to be specified.

A point not on Earth that is not accelerating. The only way I can see the sun appearing to revolve around the Earth (if not on the earth) is if this point somewhere (outside our solar system let's say) is accelerating around in order to make this be observed. He is trying to say that he could 'take me to alpah centauri' or something and show me that the sun revolves around the earth. I think he is full of it.
 
  • #11
wvguy8258 said:
A point not on Earth that is not accelerating. The only way I can see the sun appearing to revolve around the Earth (if not on the earth) is if this point somewhere (outside our solar system let's say) is accelerating around in order to make this be observed. He is trying to say that he could 'take me to alpah centauri' or something and show me that the sun revolves around the earth. I think he is full of it.

What if it were merely turning about its own axis? :smile:

If you centred a scope on Earth, the sun could be seen to revolve around it...

I don't think your friend really understands that a rotating FoR is an accelerating FoR.
 
  • #12
wvguy8258 said:
I got into an argument with someone over Earth revolving around the sun vs sun revolving around the earth. He stated that there are reference points within the universe where the sun appears to revolve around the Earth that are NOT on the surface of the earth. I conceded that perhaps a point in geosynchronous orbit would appear to have the Earth revolving around it and the sun revolving around the earth. I then stated that you would be accelerating though in this orbit. He stated that there are 'fixed' points where you would not be accelerating and that the sun would be seen revolving around the earth. Is he correct?

Look. This whole question is philosophical not physics. The question of what "revolves around" what requires that one know for certain that one of the items in question is in a truly fixed reference frame. If one item is fixed then the other one is clearly revolving around it. Your friend claims that there are some "fixed" points in the universe. So how exactly does he know this? Presumably he is claiming to know where the "fixed point" (stationary frame) of the universe is located. He can't know this. To know where the fixed point of the universe is one would have to be God and have knowledge of what is OUTSIDE the universe that it can be referenced to. This is all nonsense. Therefore in physics all frames are considered of equal validity. One can fix a frame to the Earth and claim that all things revolve around it, (as was done for so many years in the past) but how would one know if the Earth itself (and that attached frame) is hurtling through "all that is" or not? One can't. So it's a test of faith. OK?
 
  • #13
DaveC426913 said:
Well, you sure are passionate about your celestial mechanics, aren't you? :wink:
I try to be precise! (Near enough for Jazz)
 
  • #14
sophiecentaur said:
I try to be precise! (Near enough for Jazz)

I was poking fun at your cussing.
 
  • #15
bjacoby said:
Look. This whole question is philosophical not physics. The question of what "revolves around" what requires that one know for certain that one of the items in question is in a truly fixed reference frame. If one item is fixed then the other one is clearly revolving around it. Your friend claims that there are some "fixed" points in the universe. So how exactly does he know this? Presumably he is claiming to know where the "fixed point" (stationary frame) of the universe is located. He can't know this. To know where the fixed point of the universe is one would have to be God and have knowledge of what is OUTSIDE the universe that it can be referenced to. This is all nonsense. Therefore in physics all frames are considered of equal validity. One can fix a frame to the Earth and claim that all things revolve around it, (as was done for so many years in the past) but how would one know if the Earth itself (and that attached frame) is hurtling through "all that is" or not? One can't. So it's a test of faith. OK?

I don't really think that's what this is about.
 
  • #16
No, I think this is what this is about, in a sense. Okay, so if in only one reference frame (earth-centered) it can be said that the sun revolves around the Earth and every other reference frame off the planet disagrees, then both claims are equally correct?
 
  • #17
wvguy8258 said:
No, I think this is what this is about, in a sense. Okay, so if in only one reference frame (earth-centered) it can be said that the sun revolves around the Earth and every other reference frame off the planet disagrees, then both claims are equally correct?

You could take it one step further and say that the Earth doesn't even rotate but the whole Universe goes around us. After all, we are the most important thing in 'Creation', so why should we expect to be moving?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 
  • #18
i think mb it might appear as iff the sun is revolving around the Earth if u were standing on the sun, like as if a mach truck speeds by u at a constant speed it seems like your vehicle is going backwards
 
  • #19
I understand from the other posters that general relativity would permit the assumption that the Earth is stationary (not rotating or revolving, nothing) and the puzzle pieces would still fit. However, wouldn't this require very distant objects (stars, etc) to revolve around the Earth at a velocity exceeding that of light? How can everything then fit together?
 

1. How long does it take for the Earth to complete one revolution around the sun?

The Earth takes approximately 365.24 days, or one year, to complete one full revolution around the sun.

2. What causes the Earth to revolve around the sun?

The Earth revolves around the sun due to the force of gravity. The sun's large mass creates a gravitational pull on the Earth, keeping it in orbit.

3. Does the Earth's revolution around the sun affect the seasons?

Yes, the Earth's revolution around the sun is one of the main factors that causes the changing of seasons. The tilt of the Earth's axis also plays a role in the seasons.

4. How does the speed of the Earth's revolution change throughout the year?

The Earth's speed of revolution around the sun is not constant. It is fastest when the Earth is closest to the sun (perihelion) and slowest when it is farthest from the sun (aphelion).

5. Can the Earth's revolution around the sun change?

The Earth's revolution around the sun is relatively stable and has remained consistent for millions of years. However, various factors such as the gravitational pull of other planets or the gradual slowing of the Earth's rotation could potentially cause slight changes in the Earth's orbit over a long period of time.

Similar threads

  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
27
Views
2K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
15
Views
1K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
20
Views
1K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • Astronomy and Astrophysics
Replies
16
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
649
Back
Top