Right of return (Palestinian)

[kyleb]

I am referring to the Leviticus 18:28, as I quoted above, which explains that when the Israelites defile the land they will be exiled from it, and the events of that are explained though the Books of Kings.

 

[The Dagda]

Some scholars claim that the events in The OT already happened after their exile to Babylon and their return and the building of the second temple. Tiny Tim, really I wouldn't press that particular issue too far. For one it doesn't matter if God promised anything, no one cares. And for two Orthodox Jews know a great deal more than you and they don't think The Bibles conditions have been fulfilled. I'd leave it, it's a pointless avenue anyway, but it's your look out.

 

[ALYAZAN]

peace upon u

There are many differences between various translations of Torah, just there are many differences between translations of Quran. However, the translations of Torah (and Tanakh as a whole) which are used by Jews and most Christians all come from the same ancient Hebrew Masoretic Text which was settled on around a millennium ago. Only some Christian Bibles are based on earlier Aramaic and Greek translations.

mmmmmmmm ..
my dear ... translated copies of Quran into other languages are not the holy book it self .. and even though .. translated copies have no differences between ideas, instructions, orders and notion nor in names, places, times and other fine details .. but it's just not the holy book and they are not Quran .. simply they are translated texts ...

The statement that the Israelites right to the Holy Land is conditional is straight out of out of Torah (Leviticus 18:28), and the loss of that right as well as the instructions for living in exile until that right is redeemed is detailed throughout Tanakh (notably Song of Songs 2:7, 3:5, 8:4). Even speaking strictly in a secular sense, the violation of those instructions is what brought the destruction of the Second Temple, revolting against Roman rule rather than maintaining limited autonomy under it.

i read it an other place .. i don't remember where exactly but not here surely .. and one of my friends told me that once ..

This is also why the Rabbinical consensus until recently opposed any suggestion of building a Jewish state, and religious arguments for the Zionist movement only gained popular support as conditions in Europe grew exceedingly worse for Jews. For example sake, note that the First Zionist Congress of 1897 was originally to be held in Munich, but was moved to Basel under protest from the large Jewish communities in Germany.

As for the ancient ancestral claims, here is a report on a DNA study from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem:



http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

So, again, the theological linages you two are discussing hold no weight in either side's claim to the land over the other.

i know that a lot of people saw that .. but in fact u can reread the history of how and why israel was established .. and the main crises that happened then you'll find that religion is not too far way ..

but i agree that the identity of the hebrew state is not totally determined by religion ..

 

[ALYAZAN]

I didn't say anything to suggest otherwise.



Please present whatever facts you believe back your arguments, or are you putting faith somewhere it doesn't belong? If it is the latter, there is no peace to be found in that.

oh dear don't be that sharp in judging my speech !!
i was just saying that i agree with what u said .. and what u quoted from torah was familiar to me ..

 

[ALYAZAN]

hey dear Kyleb

So again I am curious to know; what facts you believe back your argument, or is your argument not based on facts?

facts .. it's just a matter of gathering these facts .. since David ben Gurion uptill now ...

i may be late in it .. coz i'm working now on a research

 

[kyleb]

hey dear Kyleb

facts .. it's just a matter of gathering these facts .. since David ben Gurion uptill now ...

i may be late in it .. coz i'm working now on a research

If by "facts" you mean a few quotes where he mentioned God when it suited him, don't bother as I've likely already see them. However, I assure you that if you take time to research on David ben Gurion and the history of the Zionist movement in general, you will find it was largely secular in nature, in contradiction to millenniums rabbinical consensus, and hence staunchly opposed by the vast majority of religious Jews in it's early years.

 

[Evo]

This thread has gone off topic. This is strictly about the "legal" issue. off topic posts will be deleted.

See my post when this thread was created.

I have moved these posts discussing ""right of return" (Palestinian)" to a new thread. Do not attempt to hijack this thread with personal opinions about the current military actions.

 

[drizzle]

say whatever you like about Palestinians.. terrorists ..cowards…garbage…but you wouldn’t hide the fact that Israel OCCUPY that Arab land, they’ll stand until the last man and they will have their country back ….. you may say both sides are victims of US and UK conspiracy or whatsoever…I agree but victims who choose their destiny to be in this (garbage) situation are different from those people … as for the Israelis they should be responsible for their choices …. Palestinians didn’t choose this, it was forced on them and they’ll resist ….what makes it more illogical the refugees are not allowed to go back!! …..the story is simple ..Israel has no right to do this, but for now every person in the whole world live in his/her country except Palestinians their country lives in their hearts.

 

[ThomasT]

Greed is certainly the drive behind the leaders this conquest over Palestine, but the same was true for the conquest of whites over blacks in South Africa. Apartheid in South Africa went on for decades with tactile support of governments in the US and elsewhere. However, as public awareness of the wickedness committed in our names spread, and our self-indulgent leaders were eventually forced to conform to the standards of justice which are sacrosanct to the greater population. I see the same build toward a tipping point happening here, and am at a loss as to find any tangible basis for your pessimism to the contrary.

Since making my previous replies to you, I looked up some polling stats and now I think you might be right that there is some reason for optimism regarding eventual justice for Palestinians.

According to polling stats at worldopinion.org. most people want their governments to take an even-handed role. Of those that wanted their governments to take a side, the majority were in favor of taking the Palestinian's side.

I also want to say that I think that the strictly legal issues surrounding Palestinian's right of return are something of a smokescreen obscuring what is essentially an issue of right and wrong.

Let's not forget mankind's long history of legal, state-sanctioned atrocities.

 

[ALYAZAN]

peace upon u

i found this ..

http://www.rorcongress.com/Statements/24-04-2004.htm

i guess it's a good material to discuss !!

and when i'll be back from Egypt i'll post a good report about general Egyption people common opinion about right of return

best wishes