# Right or left why homeless ?

## Main Question or Discussion Point

Why is housing always a problem ? In the socialist/communist societies, everyone was supposed to be given a home, but in all those societies homes were scarce and/or very costly and they had a waiting period of decades. Why on earth would a socialist regime not produce the one most fundamental item of equality HOMES FOR EVERYONE? That is really amazing, at least this is one thing they could have done.

If you look at the big three USA, Europe and Japan, only the US has a decent situation. Homelessness in the US is simply an "ideological" choice the americans like because if you are poor you should be punished by not having a home. The US could easily solve its homeless problem, but the people love the idea of seeing how the homeless are punished. The US however is the only country that has any decent hoUsing costs for most of the people.

Europe and Japan absolutely suck because there are few homes that are extremely expensive and it is actually very hard to buy a home in these places. Japan really takes the cake, then they complain that their GDP doesn't grow! If all your money goes to paying for a little room, whats left ?

It is amazing that after all the right and left wing hype, no one can solve the housing problem! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO CREATE AT LEAST A MINIMUM CONDITION FOR HOUSING EVEN IN THE RICHEST COUNTRIES?

## Answers and Replies

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Pengwuino
Gold Member
In the US, a developer has to think "ok, im going to build some low-cost housing". Prolbem with that is that when you do it, drugs and violence and crime inevitably moves in too. Who wants to deal with that?

Japan has very little land so building more houses is a problem.

Europe... never heard anyone talk about the housing there so i dunno.

Europe sucks. try to rent a house in or near Paris, London or Milan. It costs about 1000 Euros a month (1300 dollars) and an average pay is 1000 Euros a month. Try to buy it costs 300,000 Euros for 2 small rooms. Big housing problem in "rich" Europe. IF you go far way from the cities there are no jobs so your are trapped....

Do you mean home ownership or housing? If the latter, I don't think the Soviet Union and other communist/socialist countries had much problem with people literally not having a roof over their head, at least not anyone that wanted one. I have no doubt that percentage of families who had their own private homesas alot less though.

In most places, houses are cheap, its the real estate thats expensive. You can get prefabricated houses (double-wides and single wides) for $20K nowadays. Finding a lot to put it on is another story. And because of the way real estate is zoned, you coudn't just dump it wherever you could buy a lot even if you could afford it. One of the big problems in capitalist societies is that no one wants to live near low-cost housing. In areas where real estate is expensive, you could build very high density housing such as row houses or a huge aparment building and rent it out very cheaply such that even single full-time minimum wage types would probably be able to afford to live there, but no one wants that in their backyard for obvious reasons. (why do you think they're called the "the projects") Chicago did this in the 60s with the Cabrini-Green development. It became one of the worst neighborhoods in the entire country, and recently alot of the buildings have been torn down to make way for redevelopment. Believe it or not, some of the townhouses they are building there are now going for over$500K. Alot of residents , while they obviously did not like things as they were, felt like they were being pushed out so the city could take in more tax money.

Finally some real non "ideological" reasons why we will never solve the housing problem. Communist countries had (and still have even if they are ex-communist) 10 people living in 2 rooms.

The US is the only country that even comes close to solving the problem. At least there are price choices from 50K to 100K dollars. In Japan in Europe there is no real market, it is all very high priced (over 200K dollars), with low salaries, rents are impossible, so these areas are actually alot poorer than the US!

What make you think that the homeless even deserve houses? If you're homeless, you need to get off your butt and get a damn job.

I was homeless for 7 years with nothing but a compact car and the crap I could fit into the trunk. I used to sleep in the back seat parked up in the forests. Breakfast was free at the Salvation Army every weekday. Dinner was served by the local churches around town. If I needed gas money, I'd go to the day-labour places and make $40 for the day, then I was set for the whole month. I could take a shower at the local hostel... I made a lot of friends whom were also homeless for one reason or another - mainly because we were all too lazy to do anything productive. Most of us would waste the day sleeping in our cars/trucks/vans at the local park, or hanging out talking about how crazy the rest of the world was. A few would follow their hobby of panning for gold - going to hit it rich, no doubt. We were worthless. Unproductive beyond belief. I actually did some traveling across the US and back, 26 states, meeting other homeless across the country. We were all the same. So, no. I don't think the homeless should get anything until they can prove to us that they have some sort of desire to do... well, anything. As for me, I met a girl who encouraged me to walk amongst the employed and responsible. :!!) :uhh: And homeless families are what...lazy? Last edited: I don't think an "ideological" debate ever brings to anything. Lets even considering the people who have modest jobs in the US, you get 800 dollars a month and you may find a place to rent at 400 dollars a month. So I guess in the US you could almost pull it off. In Europe or Japan you can't. You just live with family (or others) until somehow you can buy a house or pull it off. I don't think the housing problem will ever be solved. 0TheSwerve0 said: :uhh: And homeless families are what...lazy? Yep. That's what I'm saying. And girls who say no mean yes of course. Pengwuino Gold Member Why were you homeless arctic? ive never heard an actual homeless persons view on homelessness before... In most major cities, there is help for families, and even single people who want to improve there lot. Here they will pay for housing, food,clothes, daycare and even give you bus passes to go to jobs that they help you find. Pengwuino said: Why were you homeless arctic? ive never heard an actual homeless persons view on homelessness before... Many different reasons happening within a year. Basically it was a choice I made and never really had the ambition to do anything else in life from then on. Packed up a few things and just 'left'. I'll tell you I liked being homeless - it's a lot better than having to work, pay bills, support a family, and all the stress of everything else in life. When you're camped out in the forest with nothing... nothing bothers you. As I said before, I got out of that habit. Now I've a good job, nice apartment, shares of stocks that are giving me a 10% return investment per quarter, a newer car (same type), three cats and plans to move out of the country to focus on some R&D projects I've theories on. But it is very easy to just do nothing. And being homeless is not bad, it's like a long camping vacation; once you get use to it. Arctic Fox said: What make you think that the homeless even deserve houses? If you're homeless, you need to get off your butt and get a damn job. I was homeless for 7 years with nothing but a compact car and the crap I could fit into the trunk. I used to sleep in the back seat parked up in the forests. Breakfast was free at the Salvation Army every weekday. Dinner was served by the local churches around town. If I needed gas money, I'd go to the day-labour places and make$40 for the day, then I was set for the whole month. I could take a shower at the local hostel...

I made a lot of friends whom were also homeless for one reason or another - mainly because we were all too lazy to do anything productive. Most of us would waste the day sleeping in our cars/trucks/vans at the local park, or hanging out talking about how crazy the rest of the world was. A few would follow their hobby of panning for gold - going to hit it rich, no doubt.

We were worthless. Unproductive beyond belief. I actually did some traveling across the US and back, 26 states, meeting other homeless across the country. We were all the same.

So, no. I don't think the homeless should get anything until they can prove to us that they have some sort of desire to do... well, anything.

As for me, I met a girl who encouraged me to walk amongst the employed and responsible. :!!)
This is very interesting. I have met people like this and see what you mean. Some people become homeless because they are hopeless. I mean that in a literal sense that they are without hope, not in a figuritive way that they are worthless. They have no motivation because they do not believe they can succeed. It is much easier in many cases to do nothing at all. Homeless people can become very good at doing nothing.

On the other hand I have a different story. My family was homeless for several months when I was a child. I was about 11 and my brother was 1 year old. We were evicted from an apartment in New Hampshire because my father had lost his job and could not pay rent. We went camping for 3 months while my father found employment and saved money to get us an apartment in time for the beginning of the school season. My mother stayed with us, mostly caring for my brother who had medical problems. I personally was not very disturbed by it all. I could go swimming and hiking all day. I did notice the stress it produced in my parents. The arguments were harsh. Food was also a problem. I once went 3 days with nothing to eat.

My parents have never been finacially stable. I've lived in several different states and went to many schools. It became difficult to keep any friendships. Those friendships are very important later in life. I feel as if I've somehow missed out on learning something very valuable.

A capitalistic society is competitive. Some people, for one reason or another, don't make the cut. They lose hope and thus their motivation to improve their life. Being homeless can be a challenge in itself, but there is very little social responsibility. Sometimes that bottle of Jack Daniels feels like the best thing to just make you disappear.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
10% return arctic? wanna clue me in ;)

Well homelessness in the US seems that one way or another you can manage to pull it off there. In Europe or Japan it is probably a lot harder if you have no relatives. There are alot of "personal" stories, each being different, so the subject is actually quite complicated. One paradox is that in Japan some "salaryman" work so many hours and so "hard" (which really means long hours) they end up falling asleep in the streets so are effectively homeless because they work too much. They have come full circle, they are homeless because they work too much!

What I think is that the situation tends to polarize into 2 extremes: either you work and are expected to work harder and harder just to keep even or you don't work at all. Isn't there any middle ground ?

Pengwuino
Gold Member
You can live with family and have some middle ground there. Also really, depending on where you live and what job you have, you may be able to do it. You'd have to be renting cheap or be lucky enough to own the house (got it through a family member's death?). You'd also need a job that pays at least... \$15 an hour and didnt demand a 40 hour week.

Huckleberry said:
Food was also a problem. I once went 3 days with nothing to eat.
Couldn't your family apply for FOOD STAMPS? wasn't that social program in effect then ? I think the food stamps (minimum food for the truly poor) has always been in effect in the US. Thanks if you know something more about it...

I'm sure there was some sort of program to help families get food and shelter. I don't want to get deeply into my family issues, so I will just say that my father has always been a proud man, even at his family's expense.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
oldtobor said:
Couldn't your family apply for FOOD STAMPS? wasn't that social program in effect then ? I think the food stamps (minimum food for the truly poor) has always been in effect in the US. Thanks if you know something more about it...
Programs still around and actuall gone digital in my county! Some states or counties might have gotten pissed off though because a HUGE amount of food stamps were being used for beer, wine, potato chips, and other things obviously not meant to keep your family alive.

Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
oldtobor said:
Couldn't your family apply for FOOD STAMPS? wasn't that social program in effect then ? I think the food stamps (minimum food for the truly poor) has always been in effect in the US. Thanks if you know something more about it...
I don't know what you mean by "always". I believe food stamps were introduced by Lyndon Johnson's "War on Poverty" of 1964.

loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Arctic Fox said:
Yep. That's what I'm saying.
I think she meant the children in homeless families. Maybe they're homeless because their parents are lazy, but that's hardly the kid's faults.

Arctic Fox said:
What make you think that the homeless even deserve houses? If you're homeless, you need to get off your butt and get a damn job.
Mmhmm. Ever been in charge of hiring? How many homeless people did you hire?

this is a good point. Homelesssness is like credit- you need a job to get a home, but if you don't have a home, it's hard to get a job.

Whew, we all gettin' a little weird here, eh?
Shelter's a need. If ya don't got it, ya ain't gonna do much else. If our government doesn't provide relatively easy access to suitible shelter - what the hell good is it? Homelessness is due to a completely inadequate system and government. Housing is an easy thing, relative to everything else we're capable of doing. How come there's such a failure to achieve this basic need?
The reason is because we're tryin' to run a 21st century society on 17th century principles. Got it? Get up to speed. Screw everything else until we get the basics, air, water, food, clothing, shelter, etc. for everybody handled. Homeless folks I've met are just asgood and worthy of shelter as anyone else. How come they don't got it within their means. No fault of them as far as I can see.
Jeez, we can put men on the moon and we can't insure shelter for all? What kind of screwed up priorities dow we have as a society?

Peace and love,
NN