RL Flux Capacitor?

  • Thread starter John232
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I was thinking of makeing some type of intensifier that would work by using a type of "flux capacitor". LOL, it is funny but I can not think of a better name for it since it would be a type of circuit that does not exist.

The idea or goal of the circuit is to reflect EM waves that are in a waveguide. The idea is basically since EM waves going down a half wave length wave guide seem to cancel themselves, this would do the reverse and reflect waves at a full wave length in hope that they will intensify themselves to increase the amount of watts in the wave guide.

The key to makeing it work would be reflecting the EM waves in the waveguide at the same time holding any extra energy that was caused by this. I was thinking of putting it in series with an inductor to reflect the wave at the same time it had a capacitive quality that would store the extra wattage. Although, I don't think just putting a capacitor and inductor on the end of it would work.

If anyone had an idea of a more specific arrangment of components that would make this work, I would be open to any ideas or diagrams. I was thinking it would have to be designed to hold the power at a certain level and then be able to output any extra energy to power other circuits.
 

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  • #2
berkeman
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I was thinking of makeing some type of intensifier that would work by using a type of "flux capacitor". LOL, it is funny but I can not think of a better name for it since it would be a type of circuit that does not exist.

The idea or goal of the circuit is to reflect EM waves that are in a waveguide. The idea is basically since EM waves going down a half wave length wave guide seem to cancel themselves, this would do the reverse and reflect waves at a full wave length in hope that they will intensify themselves to increase the amount of watts in the wave guide.

The key to makeing it work would be reflecting the EM waves in the waveguide at the same time holding any extra energy that was caused by this. I was thinking of putting it in series with an inductor to reflect the wave at the same time it had a capacitive quality that would store the extra wattage. Although, I don't think just putting a capacitor and inductor on the end of it would work.

If anyone had an idea of a more specific arrangment of components that would make this work, I would be open to any ideas or diagrams. I was thinking it would have to be designed to hold the power at a certain level and then be able to output any extra energy to power other circuits.
What's the goal of the compression? To store energy over a longer time, and release it over a shorter time (like with a capacitor bank)?

Bouncing EM back and forth between mirrors would not be efficient at all (unless you were aiming for laser action, but that's also not for efficiency, it's for coherence). If you want to store energy over a longer time and release it over a shorter time (to increase the peak power), what do you think would be the best ways to do that?
 
  • #3
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The goal is to have a higher wattage than what was originally put in. It would just intesify the wave, but I was thinking that it would have to release the energy over the same duration or the amount of power wouldn't always be there. I was interested in trying to use it for a constant duration. Other circuits powered by it would most likely need a constant source of power, and storing and realising it in capacitors that release and store over time would make it less usefull. It would be like an intesifier circuit just as the name describes.

In radar theory, waves reflecting down a half wave cannot be detected to even start the journey. I want to mess around doing the opposite and see what kind of kicks I can get out of it for experiments.
 
  • #4
berkeman
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The goal is to have a higher wattage than what was originally put in. It would just intesify the wave, but I was thinking that it would have to release the energy over the same duration or the amount of power wouldn't always be there. I was interested in trying to use it for a constant duration. Other circuits powered by it would most likely need a constant source of power, and storing and realising it in capacitors that release and store over time would make it less usefull. It would be like an intesifier circuit just as the name describes.

In radar theory, waves reflecting down a half wave cannot be detected to even start the journey. I want to mess around doing the opposite and see what kind of kicks I can get out of it for experiments.
We should make sure that you understand some basic science terms, so that you and we don't waste our time in this particular idea discussion.

Electrical Power is Voltage * current, or P = V * I

Electrical Energy is Electrical Power multplied by the time the power is used E = P * t

Does that change the wording of your questions?
 
  • #5
berkeman
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The goal is to have a higher wattage than what was originally put in.
And so, the way to have a higher power ("wattage") out from a given power in would be to compress _______ (what?)
 
  • #6
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I figured that it would increase power or watts since more electrons would become present before the circuit I am haveing trouble figuring out what would make it work.

I think the wording should be correct. It wouldn't be an amplifier, and I think an intesifier does not yet exist.
 
  • #7
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It would be to test if previous or future versions of electrons interact with themselves. It can't be done since the circuit needed does not exist. This is because of electrons haveing precognition of future pathways as seen in radar theory. Example would be recievers not getting fried due to length of waveguide leading to the two that are connected to each other.
 
  • #8
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I don't think electrons would need to be sent individually for a preliminary test run. I want to see how much power would be present from a reflected wave and if that is the same as the total power that was put in or if anything is different.
 
  • #9
Averagesupernova
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I can't quite understand why this thread isn't locked yet. You cannot EVER get more power out of something than what you put in. Or am I missing the point?
 
  • #10
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There would be more power in the waveguide if the energy was reflected and maintained at a higher level anyways. Also, the circuit need to do this does not exist yet to have been tested as far as I know. I don't think there is an intesifier type of circuit similiar to the one I am trying to describe.
 
  • #11
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I think I even made up the word intensifier, lol.
 
  • #12
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I thought it would be interesting to test since sending EM waves down a half wave length guide can prevent them from going down that path. I think it may have something to do with the lorentz tranformation.
 
  • #13
sophiecentaur
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It seems that you are just suggesting a resonant cavity, which will, indeed, 'store' the energy of many cycles of energy of the input signal. This is just the same as pushing a child on a swing with many small pushes until they are scarily high.
You can easily make a resonator at high RF frequencies with a Q factor of, say, 100. That would resonate with a lot of energy in it which could be 'released' in the space of, say, one cycle. There's nothing magic about this but it could be a fun project which involved hefty sparks.
Google cavity resonators. . . . . .
 
  • #14
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John232-

Are you thinking of something like the following?:

1)Take a 100-ns long section of 50-ohm coax (like RG-8), open at both ends, and charge it to 5000 volts. This can be done with a standard 5000 volt power supply and a series resistor to limit the charging current.

2) Switch (connect) one end of this charged coax to a long RG-8 cable, terminated with 50 ohms at the far end. You need a very fast switch.

3) The output pulse at the end of the long RG-8 cable is a 2500-volt, 200-ns long pulse (V2/R = 125,000 watts instantaneous) with very fast rise and fall times.

This RG-8 charging line has converted a low charging current to a very high instantaneous power pulse.

=================
We have used short stub sections of 50-ohm coax cable shorted at the far end to clip long current pulses (e.g., from an npn collector output) to a pulse length equal to twice the length of the shorted stub. For example, a 40 mA, 100-ns long current pulse (1 volt into 25 ohms) can be clipped to a 10-ns 20 mA (1 volt) pulse using a 5-ns clipping line (shorted stub). An open stub will double the output pulse voltage.

========================

Look up Marx generator and blumlein pulse forming networks on the web.

Bob S
 
  • #15
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It seems that you are just suggesting a resonant cavity, which will, indeed, 'store' the energy of many cycles of energy of the input signal. This is just the same as pushing a child on a swing with many small pushes until they are scarily high.
You can easily make a resonator at high RF frequencies with a Q factor of, say, 100. That would resonate with a lot of energy in it which could be 'released' in the space of, say, one cycle. There's nothing magic about this but it could be a fun project which involved hefty sparks.
Google cavity resonators. . . . . .
Ya, I looked it up and it does kind of sound exactly what I was getting at here. Although, it sounded like that simply plugging a capacitor and inductor would cause this to happen, but it also sounded like it would change the frequency of the EM energy. I was thinking that the EM energy would have to stay at the same frequency.

I thought the purpose of the inductor would be preset to act as a open circuit caused by the inputed frequency. If the frequency was to change then the inductor would be able to act as a short also maybe? Then a capacitor set up would be needed to hold the voltage but it is also a short to frequency.

So then if this set up does alter the inputed frequency then what could be done to maintain the frequency so that it is constant and does not change? It would seem to maximize an intensification effect it would always have to be at a frequency that would always be with a full wave length wave guide.
 
  • #16
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I guess depending on what inductor used it could allow some frequencys to pass by it and block other higher frequencies from passing. But wiki says they are shorted at both ends, I guess that is because the fuction of it is to pick out frequencies. The inductor could short out lower frequencies and the capicitor would short frequencies, so I idk I still don't see how it could be set up for just being used as a type of intensifier since the whole thing would be shorted out.

I don't think I really intend on microwaveing myself either, lol. I got a microwave transiever to try and start it up but it was in really bad condition and it didn't have a plug in. I don't think the wave guide that came with it is in any condition to set a frequency to it at the proper wave length as it was all bent out of shape. Seemed like a thousand tries with it wouldn't get any results with it, but maybe I would end up turning myself into a light bulb, lol.
 
  • #17
sophiecentaur
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At resonance, neither the L or the C are "short circuits". Their reactances are equal and opposite. To work best, the LC resonant frequency should coincide with the applied signal frequency from your oscillator. That way, the energy in the resonator is a maximum. But this shouldn't be much of a problem as you can adjust for a maximum by varying any of the three values.
The circuit cannot change the frequency, btw, just the amplitude of the peak.
 
  • #18
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I can't quite understand why this thread isn't locked yet. You cannot EVER get more power out of something than what you put in. Or am I missing the point?
Actually you can get lots more power than you put in. You can't get more energy.

If you charge a capacitor through a 1M-Ohm resistor and discharge it through a 1 micro-Ohm resistor you will have amplified the power by a thousand billion times.
 
  • #19
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At resonance, neither the L or the C are "short circuits". Their reactances are equal and opposite. To work best, the LC resonant frequency should coincide with the applied signal frequency from your oscillator. That way, the energy in the resonator is a maximum. But this shouldn't be much of a problem as you can adjust for a maximum by varying any of the three values.
The circuit cannot change the frequency, btw, just the amplitude of the peak.
Okay, what I found on the net just said that both ends of the resonator are shorted out. So then it would be shorted by some other means? Gave me the idea of trying to set up the circuit on both ends of the guide, as there could be a problem with burning out the transmitter.

I think reactance was something that the instuctors I had didn't really understand themselves. But, from what I got about inductors is that if they are set to act as an open to a high frequency they do create spikes in the amplitude of the wave that is reflected.

It did seem confusing as how that would change the frequency. It is a releif that it doesn't, but inductors can allow lower frequencies to pass as though it is a short in series.

I got thinking about it and I was thinking that like in the atom electrons do not intensify themselves as they orbit but they can gain energy to jump to different valence shells. Although they do seem to be able to cancel themselves momentarily as they cross the void between the two shells. They then would change the wavelength to fit around the other shell. So, then there is no free energy but a change in the wavelength of frequency of the electron itself like as though the electron has absorbed a photon and gained a higher energy level. But I guess there would be no way to force it to stay at the same wavelength or need to since it doesn't change? It would seem that converting the electrons to a longer wavelength would lower the frequency that would allow them to pass by the inductor uninterupted.

I was expecting a light show to come off it as it realesed photons. The electrons wouldn't be able to obtain a higher energy level in the resonator so then it would have to give off energy by releasing photons in the form of light.
 
  • #20
sophiecentaur
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You need to be careful when you hop between QM and Classical ideas. You just can't reach valid conclusions with a limited knowledge of these things. For instance, you can't relate frequency and wavelength for bound electrons in the same way that you can for EM waves.
 
  • #21
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That's why I came to the conclusion that I should take electronics instead of physics, because if I was to prove anything about any kind of theory I would have to build it to show somebody.

Seems like nowadays you just have to jump ahead to the experimentation phase. Internet is already cramed with BS theories and people that no longer give a crap because of it.

I have been considering trying this for a very long time and have been just a studying physics as a hobby . I have gone over a lot of the theory in my head and even though they train people to say they can't predict QM reactions, the reactions already discovered all work out with the way I have worked out my reasoning about it in my mind.

Then the only way to convince someone it was that way in reality would be to show them the experiment that proves it first hand. So that leads me to still wondering what exactly the right circuit would be to get any type of result from it.

I have wondered for a while if energy could simply intensify itself, there are a couple of examples that could be seen as waves canceling itself and used in electronics already. I don't think anyone has ever really tried it and would be funny if it actually did work.

Basicly the idea comes from SR, if particles traveling close to the speed of light assumed they are at rest then they entire world would contract to a limit of zero. If that happened then they could perceive themselves as being in multiple locations of their journey at the same time. So then the theory is that the reason why energy is undetectable as ever even starting going down a half wave length guide is because from the electrons frame it is starting the journey at the same time it would have finished, the guide from its frame contracts for that small trip where to the particle itself it is at both locations at the same time. Then from it perceiving that happening in its own frame of reference it transfers to our frame of reference that it never even started the trip and in effect canceling itself for only that trip even though a different version of it can still travel down a different pathway. So then the opposite would also have to be true that it could react or intensify itself in some way or transfer the energy to some other form to balance it out in some other way to maintain the same amount of energy.

Basically, I think a QM experiment would end up showing a new reaction that could be detected by them traveling back over distances it already has traveled previously or sometime in the future. I haven't heard anything about it in physics books, but have seen it used to some extent in electronics. It falls into more spooky action at a distance sort of thing even though the particles themselves only travel slower than the speed of light.
 
  • #22
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[My] idea or goal of the circuit is to reflect EM waves that are in a waveguide. The idea is basically since EM waves going down a half wave length wave guide seem to cancel themselves, this would do the reverse and reflect waves at a full wave length in hope that they will intensify themselves to increase the amount of watts in the wave guide.

The key to makeing it work would be reflecting the EM waves in the waveguide at the same time holding any extra energy that was caused by this. I was thinking of putting it in series with an inductor to reflect the wave at the same time it had a capacitive quality that would store the extra wattage. Although, I don't think just putting a capacitor and inductor on the end of it would work.

If anyone had an idea of a more specific arrangment of components that would make this work, I would be open to any ideas or diagrams. I was thinking it would have to be designed to hold the power at a certain level and then be able to output any extra energy to power other circuits.
You should review the theory and experimental verification of the microwave SLED (SLAC Energy Doubler) circuit. This circuit essentially compresses a 5 microsecond klystron pulse into a 0.8 microsecond pulse with a much higher electric field and instantaneous power by storing the energy in hi-Q RF cavities, and adding the delayed energy to the klystron output:

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/cgi-wrap/getdoc/slac-pub-1561.pdf

This is an improved version using reflected power in shorted microwave delay lines and a bidirectional 3-dB coupler:

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/cgi-wrap/getdoc/slac-pub-6145.pdf

Bob S
 
  • #23
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I got thinking about it and I was thinking that like in the atom electrons do not intensify themselves as they orbit but they can gain energy to jump to different valence shells. Although they do seem to be able to cancel themselves momentarily as they cross the void between the two shells. They then would change the wavelength to fit around the other shell. So, then there is no free energy but a change in the wavelength of frequency of the electron itself like as though the electron has absorbed a photon and gained a higher energy level. But I guess there would be no way to force it to stay at the same wavelength or need to since it doesn't change? It would seem that converting the electrons to a longer wavelength would lower the frequency that would allow them to pass by the inductor uninterupted.

I was expecting a light show to come off it as it realesed photons. The electrons wouldn't be able to obtain a higher energy level in the resonator so then it would have to give off energy by releasing photons in the form of light.
Have you studied optically pumped Q-switched lasers and metastable atomic states? This technique can achieve extremely high instantaneous power laser pulses. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-switching

It will be helpful if you review the quantum mechanics of atoms.

Bob S
 
  • #24
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Some amazing links there, think I am starting to come to the realization that this is not a new idea. I guess it is good to hear that someone has gotten something like this to work already.

I was thinking that it could be helpfull to have a circuit that raises the lower frequency that could be passed by the inductor so that it would not interfere with the frequency in the resonator if it was to reflect back from a point past the main inductor. Or, maybe somehow more inductors could be arrange in this way in series for increasingly lower shifts in frequency that could be passed and reflected that do not create much interference with each other.
 
  • #25
sophiecentaur
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There's nothing new under the Sun. You can do a similar thing with surface waves on water. Low amplitude waves will form short peaks as they are subjected to dispersion on a sloping beach.
 

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