- #1
Rach3
It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?
That's called blanching. I don't know if blanching would be enough to kill E.coli. I've never blanched a lettuce leaf, so I'm not sure how well it would hold up.Rach3 said:Although - what if one suddenly boiled, then quickly chilled, a lettuce leaf - how would that effect it? Would sterilization necessate a decrease in flavor?
Rach3 said:It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?
Microwaving would probably kill E. Coli and most bacteria, but whether or not it would destroy the toxins is perhaps an uncertainty.Rach3 said:It's labeled "organic" so I'm thinking, what if I microwaved it? Could I sterilize it that way? How long would it take? And would it change the flavor?
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/bacteria/Harmful bacteria are the most common causes of foodborne illnesses. Some bacteria may be present on foods when you purchase them. Raw foods are not sterile. Raw meat and poultry may become contaminated during slaughter. Seafood may become contaminated during harvest or through processing. One in 20,000 eggs may be contaminated with Salmonella inside the egg shell. Produce such as lettuce, tomatoes, sprouts, and melons can become contaminated with Salmonella, Shigella, or Escherichia coli (E. coli) O1577. Contamination can occur during growing, harvesting, processing, storing, shipping, or final preparation. Sources of contamination are varied; however, these items are grown in the soil and therefore may become contaminated during growth or through processing and distribution. Contamination may also occur during food preparation in the restaurant or in the person's kitchen.
When food is cooked and left out for more than 2 hours at room temperature, bacteria can multiply quickly. Most bacteria grow undetected because they do not produce an "off" odor or change the color or texture of the food. Freezing food slows or stops bacteria's growth but does not destroy the bacteria. The microbes can become reactivated when the food is thawed. Refrigeration may slow the growth of some bacteria, but thorough cooking is needed to destroy the bacteria.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/15/health/main2012579.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2012579Natural Selection Foods LLC was linked to the E. coli outbreak that has killed one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Twenty-nine people have been hospitalized, 14 of them with kidney failure. FDA officials said they had received reports of illness in 19 states.
We're pretty lucky. There's a family farm a few miles from here that is working toward their organic certification. They raise Black Angus cattle in fields with real pasturage and fresh water - lean tender beef. Their chickens are free-ranging, and they are also very tasty. You cannot get that kind of quality in a supermarket, though without the middle-men entailed in large-scale distribution, their prices are comparable to and often lower than the stores. We just call and say "can I pick up 20 chickens next weekend?" and they're ready for us when we swing by. Their hamburg can be hard to grill sometimes, because the fat content is so low that the patties don't bind real well - a couple of eggs mixed in the burger (along with the mandatory garlic, onion, and pepper) usually fixes that, though.Astronuc said:I think its time to raise my own meat in addition to vegetables.
FDA (under the Bush Administration) doesn't exactly have my confidence at the moment.
Correction for that statement:turbo-1 said:According to the Monterey County Herald, Natural Selection Foods processes about 70% of the pre-packaged salads sold in this country.
Earthbound Farm sells more than 70 percent of the country's bagged organic salad and processes about 30 million salad servings each week, according to the company. Its produce can be found in nearly three-quarters of U.S. supermarkets and in all 50 states and Canada.
Thank you for the correction. My first thought was that washing bagged greens would be very water-intensive, so they likely have some kind of water-reclamation and reuse program. Unless they have a really foolproof system of sanitizing the water before reuse, coliforms could spread through the plant's washing system, regardless of how they got there. I hope they will be very up-front about what they find out about the source of the contamination.Moonbear said:Though, from that article, they do also package non-organic brands as well. Their organic spinach is what's known to be contaminated, but now it makes more sense why they're pulling so much from shelves if they don't know where the contamination originated or if it's possible cross-contamination occurred between the organic and traditional spinach. They don't indicate in the article what percentage of the total market they process.
Moonbear said:Correction for that statement:
Though, from that article, they do also package non-organic brands as well. Their organic spinach is what's known to be contaminated, but now it makes more sense why they're pulling so much from shelves if they don't know where the contamination originated or if it's possible cross-contamination occurred between the organic and traditional spinach. They don't indicate in the article what percentage of the total market they process.
At this point in the investigation, all of the manufacturing codes taken from spinach packaging retained by patients are from packages of conventional (non-organic) spinach. However, the investigation is still underway.
I think Earthbound will be open about the problem. I don't agree with their industrial organic model, but I believe them to be ethical capitalists.turbo-1 said:I hope they will be very up-front about what they find out about the source of the contamination.
Skyhunter said:Local production and consumption would keep contamination like this from spreading all over the country.
Makes me feel bad for the folks in AZ! :rofl: But, sure, yeah, if we all ate locally grown produce, we wouldn't have this spread all over the country, instead, you could have had over 100 people all in one small town get infected. :uhh: The distance the food is shipped isn't the problem.Rach3 said:Yeah, who wants to eat junk like wheat, corn, and bananas? Local production all the way! From now on I won't eat anything except local-grown soy, tobacco, and cotton. Meanwhile, Hawaiians will subsist on a 100%-pineapple diet.
Up until yesterday, they were saying it was their organic brands, so which source do we trust today? This is sounding more bumbled by the moment! Why do they need product codes to determine if people have organic spinach? Shouldn't it say it right on the package? Do they have mislabeled packages too?Skyhunter said:It is the non-organic brands that are contaminated.
Who are they?Moonbear said:Up until yesterday, they were saying it was their organic brands, so which source do we trust today? This is sounding more bumbled by the moment! Why do they need product codes to determine if people have organic spinach? Shouldn't it say it right on the package? Do they have mislabeled packages too?
No, Natural Selections is the parent company, they are a processing plant. The majority of their growers are organic, although a lot aren't certified organic. The tainted spinach is very likely an organic brand, even if it's not Earthbound FarmsSkyhunter said:Who are they?
I think you must have misunderstood. The contaminated spinach was the Natural Selections brand, which is non-organic. Every article or news report that I have heard or read has been consistent on this point.
Here you go. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/us/17spinach.htmlSkyhunter said:If you have a link that says otherwise please source it.
I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.With the wide publication of the Earthbound Farm name in connection with the outbreak, consumers wondered whether organic farm practices were implicated in the contamination. But no conclusive link has emerged between the infection and organic farming, Natural Selection executives and organic farming experts said.
Farming procedures in conventional, nonorganic fields are not regulated by the government. The production process, Mr. Chelling said, involves a host of people, like pickers and produce stockers, as well as many kinds of farm equipment and cleaning machinery.
Rach3 said:Another case of dramatic overreaction to media fearmongering. One vegetable-related death, and people like Skyhunter think we should stop eating food altogether. Anyone feel like putting things in perspective? Perhaps compare the food safety of the 21st century and the pre-pasteurization, pre-refrigaration, unregulated, antibiotic-free, totally organic 19th century? Hmm?
The country's centralized food processing system is at least partly to blame because produce from one source is distributed all over the country. If just one corner of farmland becomes contaminated, bacteria can spread all over the United States.
"We don't see this disease in India, Africa, China. We only see it in highly technologically advanced countries, and the reason is because of this highly centralized food processing system," said Lee Riley, professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley.
That quote no longer appears on that page...Skyhunter said:It is the non-organic brands that are contaminated.
From Earthbound Farms http://www.ebfarm.com/press/foodsafe/ [Broken]
You are drawing a conclusion based on lack of evidence: there is no firm link to any spinach yet - no contaminated spinach has actually been found. So right now all they have is what the sick people are saying. So what that quote is actually saying is that they think it is the organic spinach, but they haven't proven it yet by finding contaminated spinach.However, from the NYT article:
How are organic farms regulated? From what I've seen, neither conventional nor organic farms are regulated.I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.
No, what the quote is actually saying is what it says. It makes no implications.russ_watters said:You are drawing a conclusion based on lack of evidence: there is no firm link to any spinach yet - no contaminated spinach has actually been found. So right now all they have is what the sick people are saying. So what that quote is actually saying is that they think it is the organic spinach, but they haven't proven it yet by finding contaminated spinach.
Since your claims are unsourced, I prefer the professor of infectious disease and epidemiology's opinion over yours.russ_watters said:Btw, though, that sfgate link is specific in saying that it is Earthbound Farms - one of the organic labels of Natural Selection foods - that is the focus of the investigation.
And ugh, not SFGate again. I'm getting sick of that tabloid. It's horrible. No, you don't see E Coli in Africa and China - they wouldn't know it if they saw it and they are too busy dealing with more archaic diseases like dysentery and botulism and malaria to notice! How are organic farms regulated? From what I've seen, neither conventional nor organic farms are regulated.
Except that the greens that Natural Selections packages as non-organic actually are following the same processes for growing as their organic farms...because they are the farms that are undergoing the process of obtaining organic certification. They are still using organic processes on those farms, they just can't call it certified organic. This was all in the NYT article Evo linked. In the other thread on this topic, I linked to several other sources that also were saying it was their organic spinach. The thing all the people promoting organic foods have forgotten is that the reason we do what we do in traditional farming is because it keeps the food chain safe from food-borne diseases.Skyhunter said:I would be more concerned with nonorganic greens, since there is less regulation and oversight.
I just posted the same thought without seeing your comment first.Evo said:What if it's not the spinach?
I sure hope it's not out of fear of contamination. My guess is that it's picking time and with nobody packaging and selling it right now, they're just going to lose the crop and have it rot in the field, just plow it under now and try to get in their next crop early (depending where they are if they still have a fall/winter growing season, or are just plowing early and taking their losses).Also I read where farmers were plowing under entire fields of spinach. WHY?
At least I have a supply of frozen spinach in the freezer, so I won't be entirely without if they get that crazy. The TV news (not sure which one I had on last night, I wasn't really focused on it) was interviewing folks on the street, and they had people saying they'd NEVER buy spinach again! Talk about an overreaction! If anything, that we call 100 people spread out over the entire country a serious outbreak worthy of pulling all related products off the shelves is more a testament to the safety of our food supply than anything else. If our food supply weren't so safe, nobody would notice or report a handful of cases of "food poisoning" because it would be so routine.First, if there isn't any E.coli present, it's safe, and it's definitely safe once it's cooked even if it was contaminated. If I can't get my fix of Boston Market creamed spinach, I will go off the deep end. This craziness better not spread to cooked spinach.
If it makes no implications, then it is an utterly useless thing to say. Why did you post it? What is your point?Skyhunter said:No, what the quote is actually saying is what it says. It makes no implications.
I cited your source!Since your claims are unsourced
Um, right... so you're agreeing with me? Compliance with being organic has nothing to do with health/safety.Organic Farms are certified and inspected for compliance. If you want to see more, here is a good place to look.
russ_watters said:If it makes no implications, then it is an utterly useless thing to say. Why did you post it? What is your point?
... addresses such consumer questions about possible connections to organic practices.With the wide publication of the Earthbound Farm name in connection with the outbreak, consumers wondered whether organic farm practices were implicated in the contamination. But no conclusive link has emerged between the infection and organic farming, Natural Selection executives and organic farming experts said.
Exactly, we agree up to this point.russ_watters said:All that quote tells us at face value is that the investigation is ongoing and as yet not conclusive. Right...so? We all know the investigation hasn't finished yet.
What evidence points to organic practices.russ_watters said:And the evidence is still pointing in that direction.
from your favorite website...The outbreak is the 20th time in a decade that leafy greens from Monterey County have been contaminated with E. coli, and government officials already had warned growers and processors in the Salinas Valley to improve their conditions.
No, you refuted my source with your opinion.russ_watters said:I cited your source!
You said:"We don't see this disease in India, Africa, China. We only see it in highly technologically advanced countries, and the reason is because of this highly centralized food processing system,"
IMO Lee Riley's opinion on this subject carries more weight than yours.No, you don't see E Coli in Africa and China - they wouldn't know it if they saw it and they are too busy dealing with more archaic diseases like dysentery and botulism and malaria to notice!
Yes I do agree.russ_watters said:Um, right... so you're agreeing with me? Compliance with being organic has nothing to do with health/safety.
Look, I can't provide evidence of something that doesn't exist. If there are regulations governing farming practices (for health reasons) for organic farms, you need to provide evidence of them. The articles already referenced talk about the lack of regulations on farms, but do not differentiate or specify anything about organic farms.
The bag of Dole baby spinach tested positive for the same strain of E. coli linked to the outbreak, said Dr. David Acheson, of the Food and Drug Administration's Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition. Dole is one of the brands of spinach recalled Friday by Natural Selection Foods LLC, of San Juan Bautista, Calif.
Here is a link to EarthBound farms and their latest statement.Evo said:Now to determine where the E.Coili was introduced and why the majority of patients with E.coli had reportedly eaten from bags of the organic brands of Natural Selections. Was there enough contamination outside the bags to cause E.coli? I just want to be able to eat spinach again.
Earlier today, the New Mexico Department of Health announced a link to e coli O157 in an opened, leftover bag of spinach from a case patient. The product was conventional spinach, packed in our facility. The strain matched the outbreak strain.
They meet the same health controls as non organic...none.Evo said:I will never trust organic brands to be safe, they just do not meet stringent enough health controls.
Evo said:They only (if *certified* mean they don't use pesticides). I don't care about pesticides, they're the least of my worries.
Every year in the U.S.:
Approximately 73,000 people contract E. coli.
Approximately 61 people die from the infection.
The anecdotal evidence alluded to in the above links and the fact that the organic brand name is the one the investigators keep mentioning.Skyhunter said:What evidence points to organic practices.
I haven't said anything negative about the practice of organic farming - I have just said (and you have now acknowledged) that it is just as unregulated as regular farming as far as health and safety goes. You were the one claiming that organic was better due to better regulation, which you now admit was wrong.This does point to the spinach, and the farms and processing plants, but not to the practice of organic farming.
Oh. I thought you were talking about the previous paragraph. Regardless, Dr. Riley is an obvious crackpot. e coli doesn't exist in Africa? Perhaps they don't notice it because they have bigger problems (as I suggested), but he's straightforwardly wrong about it not existing in Africa. Here's the first hit from Google on it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11394181&dopt=AbstractNo, you refuted my source with your opinion.
Lee Riley, professor of infectious disease and epidemiology at UC Berkeley, said:
You said:
IMO Lee Riley's opinion on this subject carries more weight than yours.
A hippie crackpot from Berkeley? I'm shocked!Molecular epidemiology of Escherichia coli isolated from young South African children with diarrhoeal diseases.
Yes, it is safe to eat Romaine lettuce that has been exposed to radiation. The amount of radiation that could potentially be found in Romaine lettuce is very low and does not pose a health risk to humans.
Radiation can affect Romaine lettuce in different ways depending on the level of exposure. High levels of radiation can cause the lettuce to become discolored and wilted, while low levels may not have any visible effects. However, radiation does not affect the nutritional value of Romaine lettuce.
The likelihood of getting sick from eating radiation-contaminated Romaine lettuce is very low. The FDA has strict guidelines for the amount of radiation that can be present in food, and the levels found in Romaine lettuce are well below these limits.
Radiation can get into Romaine lettuce through a variety of sources, such as contaminated soil, water, or air. It can also be a result of natural sources, such as cosmic radiation from the sun. However, the levels of radiation found in Romaine lettuce are usually very low and do not pose a health risk.
No, washing or cooking Romaine lettuce will not remove any radiation that may be present. However, it is always recommended to wash all fruits and vegetables before consumption to remove any potential contaminants. Cooking can also help reduce the risk of foodborne illnesses, but it will not remove radiation.