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Rudimentary Reasons

  1. Aug 7, 2003 #1
    I'm sure this question has manifested itself many times prior, and I don't ask in an arrogant or cynical fashion nor do I wish to castigate, but I'm sincerely interested: People of any religion, what reason or basis do have to believe in a God?
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 9, 2003 #2


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    So, can we take it since noone has responded that you don't really have a good reason, more so just another bad habit like smoking?
  4. Aug 9, 2003 #3
    I'll assume from the tone of your question that you are asking seriously. I could give you the long answer or the short answer. For the moment I'll give you the short one. Why do I believe that there is a God? Because I know it's true. But now you answer one for me. Why are you "sincerely interested"? It is unusual for someone who doesn't believe that God exists to be interested in the reasons why others believe in God. Usually atheists and agnostics are comfortable with their beliefs and don't want to change and don't care about why others do believe.
  5. Aug 11, 2003 #4
    Naturally the next question seems to be: How do you know it's true?
    I suppose my interest is born out of pure curiosity.
  6. Aug 11, 2003 #5
    I would then ask the next natural question. How do you know that your father exists or that you yourself exist?

    This is not idle banter. Think about it in the deepest most profound level that you can reach. Then answer the question for yourself. Most of us who believe in God, or know God, have done this in one way or another.
  7. Aug 11, 2003 #6
    There are a number of arguments that people put forward to prove the existence of God. You can find these well-known arguments on this and other forums if you do a search. But what may convince one person that God exists may not convince another person. We all have different personalities and we all think differently. One person may think about a particular argument and the more they think about it the more they are drawn to a conclusion that there is a God and he created the world. The same argument may have no effect on you, but a different argument might . If you are sincerely interested I suggest you look at all the arguments and ponder on them one at a time.

    The thing that did it for me was the design that is evident in the world. There is an enormous intelligence behind the world we live in. The world and everthing in it exhibit the characteristics of being designed. The human body is a masterpiece of engineering. We still marvel at the virtually unlimited capacity of our brains to learn. The universe is held together by powerful forces that are in miraculous balance. The earth seems to move around the sun at just the right distance day after day, year after year. We accept that all the things we create such as cars and planes and houses and watches and so on all have a designer. If someone tried to tell us that they threw a thousand pieces of metal up in the air and it came down in the form of a car we would think they were crazy. But many people seem able to accept that a far more complicated thing than a car just happened by chance. It amazes me that anyone can believe all this happened just by chance, and I'm more amazed that I once believed it myself. I haven't tried to make the argument in any detail here. To write about the design that is evident in the world would take a long time. This is just the start of it.

    There's one more thing I have to tell you. I can't prove to you that God exists. You can only prove it to yourself. It has to be an honest-hearted search for the truth. Be willing to believe no matter what the consequences, that's all it takes.
  8. Aug 11, 2003 #7


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    Ok, so that is the first step I take it? To believe unquestioning that God exists. Then what? Believe anything that differs from gods rule is a lie? A trick of satan?

    Yes, you have to completly ignore reality in order to believe in a false one.

    Design? I can't argue whether or not there was a designer. But lets assume for a minute that there is. How is an individual supposed to be able to decide which flavor of religion is accurately describing the true designer? Is there any evidence availible to back this up?

    That question gets ignored time and time again.

    Well, for one, i don't believe anyone says it was quite that much chance. There are many theorys, like the bacteria travel through space and such. Anyhow, if the conditions were right on the young earth, it was not so much chance, and more so that it was going to happen.

    And of course arguing for design generally means you support such notions as 6,000 year old earth, world wide floods, etc. Unfortunatly, again, there is not one shred of true evidence supporting these claims, and what evidence there is generally slams the door in there face.

    Belief in god is normally a habit, passed from generation to generation. There is no good reason to believe, because, how could you do anything else from a believers perspective?
  9. Aug 11, 2003 #8
    You need to read more carefully. I didn't say the first step was to believe that God exists. I said it was be willing to believe, just open your mind to the possibility.


    I didn't deal with that question because it wasn't asked. That is a separate question. But since you don't believe God exists what do you care which is the true religion. You would say they are all wrong. Of course there is evidence to prove which one is right.

    Where do you get this idea of a 6,000 year old earth, certainly not from the Bible. The earth is a lot older than that.

    Not for me. I was a diehard atheist.
  10. Aug 11, 2003 #9


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    Even here, you side step the question and avoid answering it. I've asked it time after time, thread after thread.

    I'm sure you can look for a post where my name is the last one to post a reply, and there it will be.

    I've not said I don't believe god exists. I don't believe there is enough evidence to support devoting ones life to worshipping a being that can't take the time to prove he exists.

    If there were some compelling evidence surface that showed there was infact good reason to believe in a god, I'd adapt. You say there is evidence to prove which one is right, well lets have it.

    Remember, you'd also need to disprove all the other religous claims. What makes your belief better then a belief that has been around for years and years longer?

    Common age given to the earth by creationist arguements. I think I heard once that number was reached by adding up all the lifespans of the people mentioned in the bible. So, I personally didn't get it from the bible, some wacko did. Many many others agree to it. I'm sure I've heard you supporting creationism in the past, but may be mistaken. My apologys if so.

    And what event was it that proved to you beyond shadow of a doubt that God exists? Can it be reproduced? Or can it be explained off as you not being able to cope with reality, and so therefore attribute your woes to some eternal reason?

    And I assume you were born into an atheist family, and protected from religous influence all your life. Ya right.
  11. Aug 12, 2003 #10
    For a little while I was toying with the idea of telling you who the true religion is. But I'm not going to. I have read and reread your post several times megashawn and each time that I read it I was left more and more with the impression that it would be a waste of time telling you anything. You wouldn't believe me and you would utterly reject what I say. After all, I gave what I consider very cogent reasons for believing the Bible is God's word in the other thread and you didn't believe me then. Why would you believe me now? Frankly, I don't think you are ready for the truth.
  12. Aug 12, 2003 #11
    You can go ahead and tell them.

    I am God, your Lord and Savior. Bow before me, and send me gifts as proof of your devotion to Me.
  13. Aug 12, 2003 #12
    "Many will come in my name, to lead many astray." :wink:

    In other words how does one really tell, if there are a lot of "fakes" out there? Indeed, how does one go about accepting the "truth" of anything if it means accepting it blindly? I think that would have to be your first prerequisite.

    Thus how would you go about teaching people about God? By speaking to "their experience," and giving them someting "practical" they can relate to, not by speaking about some "foreign entity."
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2003
  14. Aug 12, 2003 #13


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    I can relate to Zero pretty well. Much better than I can to some psychopath that burns down towns because they want to keep their foreskin, or a guy who has an elephant's head, or an invisible supernatural essence, or some stupid numbers. (Lemme think... who haven't I offended there? Answers on a stamped addressed postcard...)

    I think he is very well ready for the truth. He is however not ready for the "Truth" which is a faith dependency preached with flawed evidence and arrogance, with an attitude of absolution, something that is a matter of belief not of rational thought and understanding. Nor should he be.
  15. Aug 12, 2003 #14


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    Cool, I like it when FZ shows up. I really don't even need to respond, just to thank FZ and Lord Zero.

    But, since I'm going through the troubles;

    Blah blah blah, you've still ignored my questions.

    So you've considered letting me in on the secret huh? Well, its not a big secret, its whichever brand of religion has succesfully brainwashed you.

    My question, is not so much which brand is the proper choice, but how do you know which one is true, amongst all the false ones?

    I mean, how do you know its God and Jesus, not Zeus and Hercules? What prompted you to subscribe to one of the worlds youngest religions?

    I think you've also missed the point of these things called "Forums". It is a place where people come and share there ideas. I'm sorry people weren't breaking there necks getting to church to save themselves because of your compelling evidence provided in your thread about the bible, but its no need in getting angry about it.

    And really, if nothing else, this thread has served a good purpose to show how people sporting a religous belief ignores questions that get right to the heart of the matter, and blah blah there way out of it until people become bored.

    Another good question, how are you so certain Zero is not god commanding you to do his bidding? You never know, maybe god has caught up with the times.
  16. Aug 12, 2003 #15
    If we were all Hindu's, we would all be incarnations of God, and we would address each other as such. :wink:
  17. Aug 12, 2003 #16
    One thing that I have said a number of times on these forums is that the God of our universe is a reasonable God and he respects the intellectual ability that he gave us. He does not ask for or expect blind faith. There are indeed a lot of "fakes" out there and it can be confusing, but then again it was designed to be confusing. In fact they are all fakes except for the one true religion. But the Bible says that there is one true religion and it tells us how we can know which one is right.

    The faith that is spoken of in the Bible is not blind faith, it is a faith based on solid evidence. The truth about the world is very rational indeed. Remember the old story about the half-filled glass of water. One person will say the glass is half empty, another will say it is half full. Two people looking at exactly the same thing and coming up with contradictory conclusions. It just goes to show that people will interpret evidence in their own subjective way.

    See above.

    You're right about the sharing of ideas but I would point out that I have always answered questions before. Go back and check my posts since March. You will find that time and time again I have answered any question asked of me. I don't plan on making a habit of not answering but this time I decided that is what I would do (with some reluctance).

    Oh dear. Zero is God? Now there's a scary thought!
  18. Aug 12, 2003 #17


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    I don't know much about hinduism, but its pretty interesting. Such as the idea you speak of, in which all people are equal. Seems like there is more to it though, then what you speak of. Isn't there an order one must work through, caste system I think? Could be confusing things, I'll have to read about it some.

    Blah blah, sidestep.

    When I say you don't answer anything, not just you specific, but many others, will simply dodge the question and skip to a simple analogy to attempt to miss it all together.

    I mean, I've always heard of the optimistic/pessimistic thing and the half full/half empty. But as your suggesting, apparently nature itself should suffice as evidence of a god. So you look at it and claim oh yes, there is a god, there must be, cause how else could this have happened.

    I look at the same stuff, say hmm. What the hell is this crap? I don't know answers to things like where did we come from? where do we go when we die? Is there a god? There is not enough evidence to prove the third, and to me seems that a being that is supposed to be of infinite power should have no problem conveying his message properly, accurately, to every single being on earth.

    The mere fact that he hasn't delivered such a message, and no, its not the bible, shows me that he either exists, and does not care, or does not exist, or does and I'm predestined to live in hell.

    Basically, when you get down to it, I just don't care. I get 100 years of life if I'm lucky and I want to live. If I can't be a decent person during that time and get to enjoy an afterlife, I want no part of it. If it takes more, then someone needs to get me the memo.
  19. Aug 12, 2003 #18
    As far as Hinduism is concerned I'm reasonably sure this is correct. But I also know they have the social caste system in India, and whether or not it has anything to with Hinduism I don't know?
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