Scary stuff

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  • #2
Gokul43201
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I wonder if this will help increase funding for NMD ?
 
  • #3
Townsend
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This rather serious thread gets one reply? Is no one concerned about this?

I for one am worried about the people of China....

If they really will use a nuke on the United States then the people of China are in a lot of trouble.

Townsend (hopes that at the very least all the westerners like The Smoking Man would be able to get out of China before it would be to late)
 
  • #4
The Smoking Man
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Townsend said:
This rather serious thread gets one reply? Is no one concerned about this?

I for one am worried about the people of China....

If they really will use a nuke on the United States then the people of China are in a lot of trouble.

Townsend (hopes that at the very least all the westerners like The Smoking Man would be able to get out of China before it would be to late)
And I'm sure in your context you will go on believing that.

This general stated that he was speaking from his own personal perspective and not as a spokesman of the state.

Kind of like you.

You're sure this has never happened in the USA?

William G. "Jerry" Boyington?
 
  • #5
Townsend
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The Smoking Man said:
And I'm sure in your context you will go on believing that.

This general stated that he was speaking from his own personal perspective and not as a spokesman of the state.

Kind of like you.

You're sure this has never happened in the USA?

William G. "Jerry" Boyington?


I am through talking with the likes of you if you cannot refrain from putting words into my mouth. If you want to tell me what I am saying for me and then tell me what you think about what you said I am saying, then why don't you just go argue with the wall?
 
  • #6
Astronuc
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The Smoking Man said:
And I'm sure in your context you will go on believing that.

This general stated that he was speaking from his own personal perspective and not as a spokesman of the state.

Kind of like you.

You're sure this has never happened in the USA?

William G. "Jerry" Boyington?

Curtis E. LeMay, Air Force/SAC - who wanted to nuke Russia and China - and wanted to "bomb Vietnam back to the Stoneage".

General Douglas McArthur, who wanted to use nuclear weapons in Korea.

and a host of other nuts.
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking
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The NMD is a joke. LASERS will make it obsolete before it ever works.
 
  • #8
The Smoking Man
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Townsend said:
I am through talking with the likes of you if you cannot refrain from putting words into my mouth. If you want to tell me what I am saying for me and then tell me what you think about what you said I am saying, then why don't you just go argue with the wall?
I must say that I am surprised.

You addressed me directly and I responded.

I re-stated your assertion that you spoke your opinion which I can document if you'd like.

I then showed you an instance of a high ranking military officer in the USA who made similar statements.

Astronuc has supplied you with some other references. I would also go as far as saying that it was McArthur's opinion that the US should have continued to Beijing.

Is it just because you are not used to people questioning your opinion or that you can't admit when you are wrong?

Every word I said was the truth.

This is from YOUR own link:

However, some US-based China experts cautioned that Gen Zhu probably did not represent the mainstream People's Liberation Army view.

“He is running way beyond his brief on what China might do in relation to the US if push comes to shove,” said one expert with knowledge of Gen Zhu. “Nobody who is cleared for information on Chinese war scenarios is going to talk like this,” he added.
Gen Zhu said his views did not represent official Chinese policy and he did not anticipate war with the US.
Can you point out where I went wrong?
 
  • #9
Townsend
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The Smoking Man said:
Can you point out where I went wrong?


yep..when you said:

Kind of like you

If you're not trying to tell me what I am saying for me then what do you mean by saying what you did?
 
  • #11
Townsend
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Pengwuino said:
Meh, saber-rattling, nothing more.

Right, but it still freaks me out...
 
  • #12
Happeh
60
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Pengwuino said:
Meh, saber-rattling, nothing more.


I disagree. Unless you mean that a warning is saber rattling?

This is not bravado. It is a message. If the USA continues on it's world domination conquest, the Chinese will resort to nuclear war if necessary. You can bank on it.

The denials are politics. If there were no denials, the guys would get into an "oh yeah!" situation and the war could start next week.
 
  • #13
Townsend
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Happeh said:
This is not bravado. It is a message. If the USA continues on it's world domination conquest, the Chinese will resort to nuclear war if necessary. You can bank on it.

That is scary...there will be a lot of dead Chinese people, a lot. I am certain that if China launched a nuke at the US we would destroy their entire country in the blink of an eye. I think that is scary and also very sad....
 
  • #14
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
yep..when you said:



If you're not trying to tell me what I am saying for me then what do you mean by saying what you did?
He expressed his opinion, kind of like you. Didn't you say that was okay on the other thread?

Does he have to get his own URL so we can quote him?
 
  • #15
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
Right, but it still freaks me out...
Well, now you know what happened with Kim Jong Il and why it is not wise to sabre rattle in front of an unballanced ruler.

It's called diplomacy.
 
  • #16
Townsend
221
0
The Smoking Man said:
He expressed his opinion, kind of like you.

Then I misunderstood you...

my apologizes...
 
  • #17
Townsend
221
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The Smoking Man said:
Well, now you know what happened with Kim Jong Il and why it is not wise to sabre rattle in front of an unballanced ruler.

It's called diplomacy.

I don't follow what you mean, could you explain it some more?
 
  • #18
Happeh
60
0
Townsend said:
That is scary...there will be a lot of dead Chinese people, a lot. I am certain that if China launched a nuke at the US we would destroy their entire country in the blink of an eye. I think that is scary and also very sad....


I am curious. Do you say there would be a lot of dead chinese people because that makes you feel better? You think the Chinese would not start a war if the consequences would be lots of dead Chinese people?

I hate to break it to you but that would not stop them. The Chinese have 5 billion people. Someone could blow up 3 billion of them. So what? Plenty more where they came from.

If there was a nuclear war, where someone thought they would be victor, I think the entire planet would be dead. It would take too many nukes to ensure destruction of the other side. The nuclear winter would get every left. I think it is much more likely that there would be a limited nuclear exchange. Bullies never stop until someone stands up and punches them in the nose. I don't think the guys in control of the USA right now will stop until someone punches them in the nose. They lied to the world about WMD and got away with it with no punishment. Now they feel they can get away with anything.

If it ever did happen. It would be a limited nuclear exchange where China probably blows up Okinawa, the USA contingents in japan and korea, and the 4 or 5 carrier battle groups off of china. The USA would counter with blowing up a few Chinese cities. Like I said. So what. Then they would both realize they were both serious. They would make a pact to divide the world up like in George Orwells book. EastAsia, EurAsia and the Americas.

If you are sitting there nervous. Why? Why do that to yourself? Nothing you can do can change it. I talked about those WMD lies for literally years as did lots of other people. Those criminals got away with everything. Instead of sitting around chewing your nails, why not feel happy? Just go do whatever makes you happy and don't think about politics. If there was a nuclear war, you would never know. You would be watching TV one minute and the next you would be ash. Why worry about something you won't even know is happening? Your brain would be crisp before you could think "Oh my god! I just got nuked!" ;)
 
  • #19
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
That is scary...there will be a lot of dead Chinese people, a lot. I am certain that if China launched a nuke at the US we would destroy their entire country in the blink of an eye. I think that is scary and also very sad....
LOL. I love the way the American psyche thinks that NOTHING will get through to them in a war.

Remember, this is NOT Iraq and you do not know what provisions have been made for war by the Chinese.

Nor are you looking far enough ahead to the reprocussions politically with fallout and the disposition of the world as far as nuclear fallout.

Nukes are not detonated on the ground if you don't know. They are detonated in the atmosphere above a target. Surely you know the prevailing winds blow towards South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia etc.

So far you are scared to death of Korea and they MAY have 6 nukes with a questionable delivery system. CHINA!!!! HELLOOOOOO!!!!

For all you know, with an unprotected west coast, you may already have nukes on your soil awaiting detonation. Can you say for sure you don't?

For gosh sakes, you can't even keep the Mexicans out with a steel fence and sensors.

You can't keep drugs out with unsophisticated South American Drug Cartels.

I suggest you bite the bullet and watch F-9/11 again by Michael Moore. Forget the politics. Just review the bit where he describes the ONE GUY you had patroling your west coast and how when he has a day off you were completely unprotected ... but you could make a call from the phone booth outside his office.

All the 'Star Wars' sophistication in the world is not going to amount to much when a bunch of static, planted nukes in all population centers of the states are merely detonated instead of being launched.
 
  • #20
Townsend
221
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Happeh said:
I am curious. Do you say there would be a lot of dead chinese people because that makes you feel better? You think the Chinese would not start a war if the consequences would be lots of dead Chinese people?

No, I say it because I would feel terrible for such a lose of human life....from what I have seen a typical person in China is a very peaceful person, I don't want to see such a great country and it's people destroyed.

I hate to break it to you but that would not stop them. The Chinese have 5 billion people. Someone could blow up 3 billion of them. So what? Plenty more where they came from.

I know, that's the really scary part of it....not to mention that I doubt we would stop at 3/5ths of the pop and then give up, we would go till the war was won, completely.

If there was a nuclear war, where someone thought they would be victor, I think the entire planet would be dead.

You don't get it do you, the US will win at all cost. The resolve in this country , in my opinion of course, has never been matched before in history.

It would take too many nukes to ensure destruction of the other side.
We have more than enough to completely destroy anyone and everyone.

The nuclear winter would get every left.

I don't think it would. Do you have any idea how many bombs the US and
Russia alone have detonated?

I think it is much more likely that there would be a limited nuclear exchange.
Don't be naive about this...there would be no hope of a limited exchange unless the Chinese gave up early on. I know for a fact that the US would not stop, no way in hell. And that is not something I am proud of.

Bullies never stop until someone stands up and punches them in the nose. I don't think the guys in control of the USA right now will stop until someone punches them in the nose.
please...save your diatribe about the US. This is not about who is right and who is wrong.

If it ever did happen. It would be a limited nuclear exchange where China probably blows up Okinawa, the USA contingents in japan and korea, and the 4 or 5 carrier battle groups off of china.

They would not be able to hit the carrier battle groups, but nice try...

The USA would counter with blowing up a few Chinese cities. Like I said. So what. Then they would both realize they were both serious. They would make a pact to divide the world up like in George Orwells book. EastAsia, EurAsia and the Americas.
:rofl: yeah, and about 100 20 to 50 megaton trident missiles (there goes 75 percent of the pop) coming from subs, who knows how many ICBMs and the list goes on. The stock pile of nuclear arms is enough to turn Earth into a small star...



If you are sitting there nervous. Why? Why do that to yourself? Nothing you can do can change it. I talked about those WMD lies for literally years as did lots of other people. Those criminals got away with everything. Instead of sitting around chewing your nails, why not feel happy? Just go do whatever makes you happy and don't think about politics. If there was a nuclear war, you would never know. You would be watching TV one minute and the next you would be ash. Why worry about something you won't even know is happening? Your brain would be crisp before you could think "Oh my god! I just got nuked!" ;)

In my location, it is not likely that a missile would make it this far into the mainland US...I would prefer to not survive such a scenario, however.
 
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  • #21
Townsend
221
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The Smoking Man said:
LOL. I love the way the American psyche thinks that NOTHING will get through to them in a war.

Remember, this is NOT Iraq and you do not know what provisions have been made for war by the Chinese.

You assume more than you should...I am not the politican in charge but I can about imagine what would happen should a nuke ever go off on US soil.
 
  • #22
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
I don't follow what you mean, could you explain it some more?
Yes, you became unnerved when you heard a Chinese General talked about a nuclear strike on the USA.

I was merely stating that an unballanced mentality like Kim Jong Il would have felt even more threatened when Bush mentioned his country by name as a part of the Axis of Evil and would have seen himself as a target ... part of a laundry list of countries that would be attacked ... and they were already attacking the #1 position on the list.

Really, If you were watching me bludgeon a man with a steel pipe and I took the time to point at you and said, "You're next." Wouldn't you start looking for your own steel pipe or something bigger?

Diplomacy is the ability to take action without provoking re-action from third parties or being able to settle things in other ways.

Sun Tsu even said, "To win without fighting is best."

It is also known that you keep friends close and your enemies closer. Well, so far Bush poked the French and Germans in the eye and then kicked Korea in the yarbles. He has also assured himself of no further support from the Italians and Spain.
 
  • #23
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
No, I say it because I would feel terrible for such a lose of human life....from what I have seen a typical person in China is a very peaceful person, I don't want to see such a great country and it's people destroyed.
I have not read the rest of this post yet but feel I must already apologize for an assumption I made ... that you were taking an agressive stance against the people of China.

What you have re-stated above is admirable and my feeling also.
 
  • #24
The Smoking Man
47
0
Happeh said:
I hate to break it to you but that would not stop them. The Chinese have 5 billion people. Someone could blow up 3 billion of them. So what? Plenty more where they came from.
Just a bit of trivia ... the Chinese have 1.3 billion people and the whole Earth has about 6 billion (India has about a billion too)
:biggrin:
 
  • #25
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
You assume more than you should...I am not the politican in charge but I can about imagine what would happen should a nuke ever go off on US soil.
I fear a similar thing would happen the world over should the US launch too.

This is the arms race all over again but a slightly different perspective.
 
  • #26
Townsend
221
0
The Smoking Man said:
I fear a similar thing would happen the world over should the US launch too.

This is the arms race all over again but a slightly different perspective.

Yeah, I guess you say that... :cry:
 
  • #27
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
Don't be naive about this...there would be no hope of a limited exchange unless the Chinese gave up early on. I know for a fact that the US would not stop, no way in hell. And that is not something I am proud of.
Then you understand only slightly what it is to be Chinese and the concept of 'face'.

China was in fact perfectly happy over the last 30 yers to leave Taiwan alone and doing it's thing.

It wasn't until the new president started making noise about declaring independence that the Chinese began to react.

Wven Bush told them to shut the F up and not push things.

To tell you the truth, I don't think China would have ever acted when they were getting all the industry (and still are) from Taiwan built on their soil.

It was Chen who spit in their face and caused the reaction.
 
  • #28
Townsend
221
0
The Smoking Man said:
Then you understand only slightly what it is to be Chinese and the concept of 'face'.

Your right, I don't know a lot about the Chinese. You are in a much better position to understand them and so I will take you as the subject matter expert, unless someone more qualified comes along.

China was in fact perfectly happy over the last 30 yers to leave Taiwan alone and doing it's thing.

It wasn't until the new president started making noise about declaring independence that the Chinese began to react.

Wven Bush told them to shut the F up and not push things.

To tell you the truth, I don't think China would have ever acted when they were getting all the industry (and still are) from Taiwan built on their soil.

It was Chen who spit in their face and caused the reaction.

Do you think there is any way to settle this thing without China invading?
 
  • #29
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
Your right, I don't know a lot about the Chinese. You are in a much better position to understand them and so I will take you as the subject matter expert, unless someone more qualified comes along.



Do you think there is any way to settle this thing without China invading?
Yeah, Id say move away from the question of independence and push business.

The government is about to fall to capitalism anyway ... so I say ride it out.

Thirty years ... that's all it has been since they were wearing silly little green uniforms here and banging out pig iron from back yard foundaries.

China has almost become what Hong Kong WAS.

They are doing a hell of a job in managing the change-over and avoiding what happened in the USSR after the wall fell.

If the same thing happened here as happened in the USSR, China would be back in the 'Warring States' period of their history in a heartbeat.

Now regardless of what you think about the political situation in some of the parts of China under 'question' the life expectancy in Tibet has gone from 34 in 1951 to 68 today and a 2% education figure to somewhere around 75% and they have secular universities not 'monastic' education.

Other horor stories that you hear from here ... are you aware that the coal mines are mostly publically owned and most of them are actually in the hands of Taiwanese nationals? That's a little fact that is often glossed over when they report the death rate in the mines (which averages about 16 per day).

Most of the other things about distribution of wealth for example are really out of the hands of the Chinese government. No matter what they do to encourage foreigners to invest in Urumchi in the NW of China will have any effect on an American business who is looking at the logistics of supply lines and the proximity of ports.

It's taken me 8 years to scratch the surface over here and most of that would fill a couple of volumes.

About all I can do is point you at the book 'The Coming Collapse of China' which predicted the fall of China after joining the WTO and say how wrong that Chinese schollar was.

All bets are off when it comes to predictions over here other than to say they have come a heck of a long way and regulations are peeling away like the layers of an onion.
 
  • #30
selfAdjoint
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Gold Member
Dearly Missed
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There are two facts about the free market which are poorly understood in the US, or maybe we are just in denial:

1) The FM works. Whenever and wherever it's really allowed to.
2) It has no necessary link to what is called in the West capitalism. How capital is managed has nothing to do with how prices are set. So long as entrepreneurs. can get access to the capital they need it doesn't matter where it comes from.
 
  • #31
edward
119
166
China nukes Walmart

The most logical result of a tiff with China would be that they would withhold shipments of consumer products to the USA for several months. We can't afford that! China is rapidly ermerging as the worlds predominate industrial power. And they don't want to lose that! They have advanced in giant leaps technologically because the didn't have to do the R and D. We sold the technology to them. They want to buy more.

China produced more steel last year than the USA and Japan combined.
LOOK at the tag on your printer, it is most likely made in China. Most of them are.

So is your

Toaster
clothes iron
food processor/blender
coffee maker
microwave oven
window A/C (if it is a newer GE)
New Black and decker anything
hand tools
Industrial tools
Most new pots and pans
childrens toys (mattel ect)
tableware
stainless steel barbecue grills
counterfit Calloway golf clubs
sports equipment
sports clothing
clothing in general
ect
ect
ect

Corporations are still moving production to china at an alarming rate.

We are manufacturing:

automobiles ( except those made in Mexico)
computerchips
toilet paper
computer paper
cardboard to be sent to China


The only good thing is that neither side can afford to do anything nasty. At least for now. :bugeye:
 
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  • #32
Townsend
221
0
edward said:
At least for now. :bugeye:

I wonder how long we can keep it that way?
 
  • #33
The Smoking Man
47
0
edward said:
We are manufacturing:

automobiles ( except those made in Mexico)
computerchips
toilet paper
computer paper
cardboard to be sent to China
Your autos are only used for domestic consumption though.

I'm not sure what you mean by computer chips since most Taiwanese chips are produced in China now and memory chips are produced throughout SE Asia. Most manufacturers have also moved R&D here.

Lenovo has just been sold to China and they now supply blade systems to the US DOD for missile tracking. (http://news.com.com/Lenovo+links+wi...3-5779732.html?part=rss&tag=5779732&subj=news)
 
  • #35
The Smoking Man
47
0
Townsend said:
:confused:

I was under the impression that military equipment had to me made in the USA. Well, not all of it of course but a part for missile tracking being made by China? That just does not sit well with me.

But thanks for the link...
Well, this is what I found so absurd about the whole situation of banning the sale of an oil company and yet buying blade systems through Lenovo.

I almost got whiplash on the doubletake. :eek:
 

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