Scotland seceding?

  • #76
D H
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Where in the world's democracies are issues ever decided as you suggest?
Texas, for one. Texas has some rather bizarre rules on annexation and disannexation, particular for "home rule cities". Once a home rule city indicates a desire to annex some territory, the people who live in that territory have lost the war. They can't say "NO! We like things just the way they are." They can't say "NO! We're going to form our own city so you can't annex us."

Once annexed, it's even harder to get out. The residents might have a chance if they can prove without a doubt that the city is treating them and nobody else worse than dog doo, but all the city has to do is prove they are treating some other part of the city (e.g., the inner city ghetto) even worse. Otherwise, the residents of the affected area have to plea for a general election all in which all citizens of the city get a vote on whether the affected area should be disannexed.
 
  • #77
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Well that's an interesting question. The English politicians are apparently hoping beyond hope that Scotland stays, which is why you see all the pandering going on. But the question in this referendum is not being put before the average Englishman in the street, so to speak. What would happen if this referendum were truly national, where all UK voters got to decide: Scotland, in or out? Would Scotland get voted off the island, so to speak?
Not sure how seriously people are taking this point but here’s how I see it. It is less than entirely fair on the rest of the citizens of the UK that this vote is open only to Scottish people. But the idea that the whole of the UK should vote on the specific issue of Scotland’s independence is about as sensible as your average reality TV show. If the vote was to include all citizens of the UK then it would have had to be about the break-up of the whole of the UK into constituent countries. I’m not suggesting that such a vote should have taken place. But then, I suppose my feeling is that this vote should never even have taken place…
 
  • #78
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Polls close in just a few minutes. How long is it before election day polling results start coming out? (Or does Britain not allow that kind of polling?)
 
  • #79
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Polls close in just a few minutes. How long is it before election day polling results start coming out? (Or does Britain not allow that kind of polling?)
Yes they are allowed, in the UK they are called exit polls, (voters are asked how they voted as they leave the polling station) but they are notoriously unreliable. It would seem that a high proportion of those so approached tend to be 'economical with the actuality'. It is expected that the true result will be known by about 7:00 am UK time tomorrow - in the small hours for you.
 
  • #80
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Polls close in just a few minutes. How long is it before election day polling results start coming out? (Or does Britain not allow that kind of polling?)
I have just heard the first prediction based on a poll conducted today (an online poll rather than a traditional exit poll) and the prediction was 54% - 46% for No.
 
  • #81
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It's been widely written that Cameron's future is in doubt if the vote is in favor of secession. I haven't seen anything about Salmond’s future should the vote be against secession.

From what I've read, the Scottish National Party was viewed as a fringe party until recently, and Salmond was viewed as one of the fringier members of that party. Will the Scottish National Party (and Salmond) survive a no vote?
 
  • #82
AlephZero
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There isn't an alternative party to the SNP. The Scots have completely given up on the Conservatives, and pretty much given up on Labour. The "western fringes" are the only core Liberal Democrat supporters, just as in England.

Of course Labour committed self-immolaton over that, when Blair set up the Scottish Parliament. If he thought the deal was a rock solid 50-seat "labour rotten borough" in Westminster, that was just another in his catalog of wrong calls.

IMO the best long-term result for England would be a yes vote. Take the political and economic hit in the short term, and wish them good luck and good riddance. When the reality of "negotiating a settlement" on the basis of being a 10% minority kicks in, they will need the luck.

The worst possible result for Engliand would be a narrow no victory. Westminster will be falling over backwards to bribe them, and we can look forward to doing it all again in a few years, whatever people have said about it being a "once in a lifetime" decision.
 
  • #83
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I won't enter that argument...I could get kilt! :)
 
  • #84
AlephZero
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First result. Clackmannanshire: no 19,036, yes 16,350, turnout 88.6%.

Very close to the final opinion poll of 54% - 46%.
 
  • #85
mheslep
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It's been widely written that Cameron's future is in doubt if the vote is in favor of secession. ....
Such talk is always available circa big events, but only deserves serious consideration when it is followed with unanimous opinion about the viability of an alternative. Without Scottish MPs, Miliband is not viable.
 
  • #86
lisab
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I won't enter that argument...I could get kilt! :)
:biggrin:

OK, full disclosure: I don't know all the finer details (are they even knowable?), but I hope it goes "No" and the union holds.

And I also hope this sends a message to Westminster that the status quo must change.
 
  • #87
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we can look forward to doing it all again in a few years, whatever people have said about it being a "once in a lifetime" decision.
The only way this will be a "once in a lifetime" decision is if the outcome is yes. It the outcome is no, the correct term is neverendum, not once in a life time.
 
  • #88
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And so now that it is over the thing I find myself wanting to do is to speak in praise of Gordon Brown and believe me, I never saw that coming. I was no fan of Gordon Brown during Labour’s years in power. But those speeches he made in the last few days showed all of the passion and charisma he seemed to be so utterly devoid of during his years as Chancellor and as Prime Minister. His defence of the Scottish people who intended to vote against independence and general highlighting of all of the disinformation put about by the nationalists was key. Well done Gordon. Every citizen of the UK owes you a huge debt. Whether they realise it or not.
 
  • #89
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The only way this will be a "once in a lifetime" decision is if the outcome is yes. It the outcome is no, the correct term is neverendum, not once in a life time.
Mr. Salmond seems to understand this. His opposition has to win every time, while he only has to win once.
 
  • #90
Astronuc
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From yesterday

High turnout seen in Scotland's independence vote
http://news.yahoo.com/polls-open-historic-scottish-independence-vote-060354002.html [Broken]

Scotland's independence vote puts UK union on edge
http://news.yahoo.com/scotlands-independence-vote-puts-uk-050318769.html [Broken]


Today - Scotland votes 'No': Salmond accepts defeat as Cameron says debate has been 'settled for a generation'
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/scottish-independence-result--scotland-rejects-independence-as--no--vote-triumphs-043827993.html
 
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  • #91
PeroK
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Mr. Salmond seems to understand this. His opposition has to win every time, while he only has to win once.
I wouldn't expect another referendum in Salmond's political lifetime.
 
  • #92
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I wouldn't expect another referendum in Salmond's political lifetime.
His political lifetime might turn out to be much shorter than expected
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

But yeah I wouldn't expect another attempt anytime soon. Especially after further power devolution to Holyrood.
 

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