News Scwarzenegger announces veto on Californian gay marriage bill

Heh I just voiced my opinion to my friend about this yesterday

Just wait and see - the House and Justices have been replaced and soon they'll try to amend the constitution to allow the naturalized citizens to run for President and he will run for President in 2008

 

arildno, Do you know whether they're having any success in the courts?

 

Hi ratings are so low, no doubt he didn't want to lose his few supporters.

On the other hand, it was stupid decision - he could have easily gotten my support back and others (I'm sure) if he'd signed it.

 

What is the issue here? Do the 'anti-gay' or 'pro-whatever' people not want equal protection, or do they not think equal protection applies to laws only allowing one class of people to marry? If the sole reason to only allow same-sex couples to marry is that it's always been that way, that's not a good enough reason. Seriously, I don't get it. There seem to be three options: a) let a couple get married, whatever their gender, b) don't let any couples get married, or c) strike equal protection from the Constitution.

 

The same reasoning then leads to the acceptance of bigamy too, no ?

 

Well, as long as mutual consent is required (amongst all the parties involved), there's no reason to *forbid* it because you'd reasonably expect that those consenting estimate that their union is more fullfulling than when not, so it would only occur in exactly those circumstances you think cannot be present. So or 1) you are right that bigamy is not fulfilling for all partners, in which case you can allow for it, because nobody will do so (they'll never mutually consent) or 2) there are (even only a few) cases where bigamy IS fulfilling, and then it is sad that it is against the law.
Note: by "bigamy" I understand simply a relationship involving more than 2 persons, no matter from what sex (which is not what the ethymology of the word stands for of course).

 

Ousted from the party?

I'm not aware of that ever happening. Rising through the party due to other politicians' approval of you? I don't know how that would manifest either.

On the other hand....Playing it safe with the *voters?* Yeah, I see that all the time.

I'm still disappointed, I'd love it if California took the leadership on energy, gay rights, other.

And I didn't read your link. :tongue2: Maybe I will later.

 

The state must have a 'good enough reason' to discriminate.

Gender and number of spouses are two different classifications. Preventing bigamy and preventing gay marriage are two separate issues, with their own set of reasons. Determining whether one set of reasons is good enough won't necessarily determine whether another set of reasons is good enough. In this case, no, I can't see how allowing gays to marry would allow bigamy.

And thinking up possible consequences doesn't address the argument. I specifically said couples, meaning two people, and I gave 3 not 2 options: a) let a couple get married, whatever their gender, b) don't let any couples get married, or c) strike equal protection from the Constitution.

If equal protection applies to gay marriage, you have to either allow gay marriage, allow no marriage, or get rid of equal protection. What part of that do you disagree with?

 

Why shouldn't we accept bigamy? Why does a person's personal life have to be socially acceptable?

Gay couples don't harm me, heterosexual couples don't harm me, what people do with their personal lives should be up to them.

I say the government has NO business involving itself in the institution of marriage, what so ever. Why should two (or more) people need a license to get married?

Besides all of that, isn't marriage a religious institution? What business does the government have with the regulation of religious practices?

 

I think you've just answered your questions.

 

Why not? Again, how is a person's private life the business of the government? What purpose does such a law serve?

Correct me if I am wrong arildno....

Whether the government officially sanctions the marriage of a gay couple or not, has no bearing on that relationship. Am I right? Or should I believe that if the government recognized a gay marriage that it would some how alter those two people and their relationship with each other? I don't buy it.....

 

I think the bigamy issue is fallacious and it should just be dropped. Does anyone want to challenge me on this? It's an appeal to consequences, emotion, and tradition, and falsely equates two different issues.

 

People will not be emancipated from marriage, bigamy, heterosexual and homosexual cases when there's an influence of religious principles on the government and the law.

 

The government currently grants marriage rights to people. What other institutions or people do is irrelevant.

 

Fine....I personally don't care about bigamy any more than I care about homosexuality. Both are perfectly fine by me since I don't feel the need to impose my moral values on others. What I am concerned about is the government involving itself with marriages at all. Eliminate government involvement in a religious practice and this all becomes moot.