Searching for the Roots of 9/11

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  • Thread starter Alias
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  • #1
Alias

Main Question or Discussion Point

A bunch of us might want to watch this.

**********************

Thomas L. Friedman Reporting: Searching for the Roots of 9/11

Discovery Channel 30
Mar 26 09:00pm CST

The roots of Muslim rage; mistrust toward America.
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Alias
Don't know how you folks outside of the US might get a chance to watch this show, but I saw the guy interviewed yesterday and it seemed like he has found some answers.
 
  • #3
kyleb
should be interesting, i watch little to no television so i would have probably missed it. thanks for pointing it out Alias.:smile:


oh and here is some good stuff on the topic as well:


http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math/qt_hi_a.html [Broken]
http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math/qt_hi_b.html [Broken]
http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math/qt_hi_c.html [Broken]
http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math/qt_hi_d.html [Broken]
 
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  • #4
Nicool003
Sounds very interesting thank you for telling us alias! I have much hoework to catch up on but I have an hour so hopefully I will finish it before the program starts...
 
  • #5
damgo
Does anyone know who anything about this Tommy Friedman guy?
 
  • #6
kyleb
no clue, that is why i use the ambiguous term "interesting." :wink:
 
  • #7
Alias
It totally kicked my butt. It was very revealing... to me anyway.

The problem, its cause, and the solution are at hand. (Somebody make me king and I'll knock it out real quick. :smile: )

More in another thread.
 
  • #8
kyleb
i wish Bush could have seen that before making the statements about how they "hate freedom" which so many people seem to have taken to heart. i actually have been familiar with the perspective presented in the show which is why i have been generally opposed to the actions of the current administration. i am really glad you found value in it Alias and i hope others might take the time to watch it when it is broadcasted again next tuesday at 8est.
 
  • #9
Alias
THE PROBLEM and ITS CAUSE

Here is what I have learned regarding the problem.

Many Arabs and muslims hate the US.

The reasons that many Arabs and muslims hate the US are...

1. Their regimes have allowed their societies to fall behind other developing nations. The US, by and large, has supported these regimes.

2. Because their regimes have allowed them to fall behind, they suffer from humiliation, jealousy, and poverty of dignity.

3. While many muslims look up to the US and her values, they see us as two-faced when our foriegn policy doesn't appear to reflect our value system. They feel that the US is a bully and doesn't care about their plight. The US's support of Israel reinforces this.

This is what follows...

When the utopian vision of an Islamic state preached by charismatic leaders meets the rage of the hatred for the west, the result is Islamist terrorism.

Anyone care to solve this one?
 
  • #10
Zero


Originally posted by Alias
Here is what I have learned regarding the problem.

Many Arabs and muslims hate the US.

The reasons that many Arabs and muslims hate the US are...

1. Their regimes have allowed their societies to fall behind other developing nations. The US, by and large, has supported these regimes.

2. Because their regimes have allowed them to fall behind, they suffer from humiliation, jealousy, and poverty of dignity.

3. While many muslims look up to the US and her values, they see us as two-faced when our foriegn policy doesn't appear to reflect our value system. They feel that the US is a bully and doesn't care about their plight. The US's support of Israel reinforces this.

This is what follows...

When the utopian vision of an Islamic state preached by charismatic leaders meets the rage of the hatred for the west, the result is Islamist terrorism.

Anyone care to solve this one?
Do you believe any of this?
 
  • #11
Alias
All of that was straight from the horses mouth and I believe every bit of it.

Which parts do you not agree with?
 
  • #12
Zero
Originally posted by Alias
All of that was straight from the horses mouth and I believe every bit of it.

Which parts do you not agree with?
I more-or-less believe the whole thing. Frankly, if you want to get a good, balancedview of teh war, Friedman is a good place to start.
 
  • #13
kyleb
i think it is important to mention that the "charismatic leaders" you are referring to are ones of small extremist factions.

as for how to solve the problem, most importantly is treating the many Arabic people who are not terrorist with respect. cutting of funding their oppressive ruling class would be a good step in the right direction. another big step in the right direction would be to work to end the conflict in Israel/Palestine. i recommend working for an resolution to push Israeli boarders back to the 1967 agreement and fill in the space between the current boarders and that with a demilitarized zone and UN regulated troops on either side to keep those boarders.
 
  • #14
Zero
Oh no! Don't ever mention Israel! The Bible says...whatever, so we have to support their terrorism!
 
  • #15
Alias
Shock and Awe

Quit bein' a detective? Zero!

I agree with most of what kyleb just said.
 
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  • #16
kyleb
ya i think he should rephrase "The Bible says..." to "the misguided Bible beating fanatics say..."


while i am not one that subscribes to any particular religion, i am a man of faith and i have spent much time studding the Bible. when it comes down to it, my beliefs are much more in line with that of Jewish than Christianity, but i do find value in both and i have yet to see any justification for the current situation in the Holy Land in either the old or new Testament. well i suppose you could consider that the rapture is only supposed to come after the building of the third Temple which isn't going to happen as long a the current Mosk stands, but i really don't see any reason to egg on the apocalypse. best i can tell, the only people pushing for that are the ones who cannot find joy in this life; and while i don't normally condone suicide, i would much prefer they did that as opposed to killing others.
 
  • #17
Zero
Originally posted by kyleb
ya i think he should rephrase "The Bible says..." to "the misguided Bible beating fanatics say..."


while i am not one that subscribes to any particular religion, i am a man of faith and i have spent much time studding the Bible. when it comes down to it, my beliefs are much more in line with that of Jewish than Christianity, but i do find value in both and i have yet to see any justification for the current situation in the Holy Land in either the old or new Testament. well i suppose you could consider that the rapture is only supposed to come after the building of the third Temple which isn't going to happen as long a the current Mosk stands, but i really don't see any reason to egg on the apocalypse. best i can tell, the only people pushing for that are the ones who cannot find joy in this life; and while i don't normally condone suicide, i would much prefer they did that as opposed to killing others.
Ya, maybe I should...


There is a powerful element in the Republican Party that sees turmoil in the Middle East to be fulfilling prophesy that ends in teh destruction of teh world. So, maybe they don't mind seeing massive death and destruction, so long as it is Arabs, and not their so-called 'chosen people'...and should they really have control of anything more dangerous than a pencil?
 
  • #18
Njorl
Science Advisor
258
10
One problem with the Israel-Palestine issue is that it is not in the interest of either leader to have peace. While for Sharon, peace would just mean losing the next election, for Arafat, peace is a death sentence. While the majority of Palestinians want peace, there are enough with guns who can only accept victory. Peace is defeat. Any leader who obtains peace without victory is a traitor who will be killed.

The rest of the terrorist world is much like this. Once a culture resorts to terrorism, it is hard to make it stop. Catering to the terrorists increases it. Repressing the culture from which it springs increases it. Terrorist leaders can not compromise, because they fear the fanaticism of their followers. Annihilating the terrorists is usually not acceptable to decent people, because there is usually a grain (or more) of justice in their cause.

I think the best solution is to enhance a legitimate, powerful, non-terrorist entity to act on behalf of the culture. This is difficult, because the terrorists generally act to discredit this entity. Israel tried making Jordan the spokesmen for the Palestinians, and contributed to a civil war in Jordan. Lately, the Palestinian Authority has been given that role. We'll see how it goes. We'll see if this new prime minister has real power, and is willing to be a martyr. The world will insist that he die for peace.

Njorl
 
  • #19
Alias
Originally posted by Zero
There is a powerful element in the Republican Party that sees turmoil in the Middle East to be fulfilling prophesy that ends in teh destruction of teh world.
That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You live in a very strange world.

I think what you might be trying to say is...

There are some people on the fringe of the Christian community that sees turmoil in the Middle East to be fulfilling prophesy that ends in the destruction of the world.
 
  • #20
kyleb
but the thing is that many of those fruit-loops have invaded the Republican party over the past twenty odd years.
 
  • #21
damgo
Yeah, it always creeps me out when I realize just how many people take things like Left Behind seriously. Just like when I'm confronted with the fact that some people who read Anne Coulter don't do it entirely for humor....
 
  • #22
kat
26
0
Originally posted by kyleb
i think it is important to mention that the "charismatic leaders" you are referring to are ones of small extremist factions.

as for how to solve the problem, most importantly is treating the many Arabic people who are not terrorist with respect. cutting of funding their oppressive ruling class would be a good step in the right direction. another big step in the right direction would be to work to end the conflict in Israel/Palestine. i recommend working for an resolution to push Israeli boarders back to the 1967 agreement and fill in the space between the current boarders and that with a demilitarized zone and UN regulated troops on either side to keep those boarders.
Well..A couple of things I think need to be re-thunk here..
The "charismatic leaders" I see and read are the religious leaders in most Arab countries, including our so called Allies. Have you ever perused the media on the weekend and read what the religious leaders are saying? keeping in mind that they hold a bit more weight then ours?

As for the Palestine/Israeli issue..that would be great if it were realistic. 1. Palestinians have repeatedly inferred that they would never settle for the 1967 borders, they want ROR and the Palestine that they have publicly and repeatedly declared to invision (in arabic news) includes all of the land of Israel as well. In fact it's been stated on this forum by a muslim in israel that is most certainly the case.
Also, I would never, ever, in a million years trust the UN to peacekeep unless there is already peace, Nor will Israel..they know better..they remember the UN peacekeepers who kept peace by standing there and watching while their men were publicly hung and did nothing NOTHING to stop it. Do we need to delve into the latest peacekeeping missions where the UN in essence rounded up the people like cattle and only made it easier for genocide to be committed against them? you are nuts if you think Israel will ever, ever allow UN to be Peacekeeping for them.


Back to the Discovery show, can you outline it a bit..I don't do cable, in fact I seldom do TV, it's evil you know.
 
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  • #23
Alias
I actually took notes during the program, but after going over them realized that the jist of the thing was pretty simple and to the point. I gave a real short summary earlier in this thread.

If you have a friend that is evil and also has cable, it'll air again next Tuesday at 8PM EST. Don't quote me on the time, but the date is right. Maybe they could tape it for you. It really is worth it.




Off topic....

Is my Avatar fooling anyone?
 
  • #24
Siv
Gold Member
84
5


Originally posted by Alias
Here is what I have learned regarding the problem.

Many Arabs and muslims hate the US.

The reasons that many Arabs and muslims hate the US are...

1. Their regimes have allowed their societies to fall behind other developing nations. The US, by and large, has supported these regimes.
Symptomatic or superficial statement. Why did their regimes, supported by the US, cause them to fall behind other developing nations ? And why did the US decide to support just these regimes and not others ?

2. Because their regimes have allowed them to fall behind, they suffer from humiliation, jealousy, and poverty of dignity.
Again, doesn't exactly figure but I'll let it go for now.

3. While many muslims look up to the US and her values, they see us as two-faced when our foriegn policy doesn't appear to reflect our value system. They feel that the US is a bully and doesn't care about their plight. The US's support of Israel reinforces this.
True. And I would add that what they see is mostly accurate.

This is what follows...

When the utopian vision of an Islamic state preached by charismatic leaders meets the rage of the hatred for the west, the result is Islamist terrorism.
Symptomatic treatment again. You've still not address the reason for the rage fully.

Alias, such superficial analyses wont help anything long term. Denying human nature wont get us anywhere. Humans are not noble savages soiled by bad culture. Violence and aggression are innate in us and have resulted in bloody wars throughout history. In fact, the number and frequency of wars have actually reduced now.
There is no difference between wars and terrorism. One is carried out by a bigger organization than the other, thats all. Just because one bunch of people wear uniforms and have coerced support from more parties, does not mean that what they're doing is not terrorism.
A Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up people in a restaurant is no different from a US missile blowing up an Iraqi civilian village. Both kill. Both try and influence behaviour based on terror.
The Geneva convention is the most ridiculous thing ever drafted.
How can you kill and terrorise in a civilised manner ?
The whole concept of killing, war and terror are barbaric and uncivilised. Drafting a document to specify how and when you can kill doesn't make it any more civilised.

- S.
 
  • #25
Alias


Originally posted by Alias
Here is what I have learned regarding the problem.

Many Arabs and muslims hate the US.

The reasons that many Arabs and muslims hate the US are...

1. Their regimes have allowed their societies to fall behind other developing nations. The US, to some extent(edit), has supported these regimes.

2. Because their regimes have allowed them to fall behind, they suffer from humiliation, jealousy, and poverty of dignity.

3. While many muslims look up to the US and her values, they see us as two-faced when our foriegn policy doesn't appear to reflect our value system. They feel that the US is a bully and doesn't care about their plight. The US's support of Israel reinforces this.

This follows...

When the utopian vision of an Islamic state preached by charismatic leaders meets the rage of the hatred for the west, the result is Islamist terrorism.
Siv replies...
Originally posted by Siv
Alias, such superficial analyses wont help anything long term.
Please elaborate with the details of this (superficially correct) analysis, so that we might try and solve the problem.
 

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